Hemalurgy and Singer Forms

[Benkinsky]

WoB tells us that it would be possible to Replicate Singer Forms with Hemalurgy. As far as I know, we don't knwo details for how exactly that would work, but it would still be fun to speculate, wouldn't it?

 

So, to maybe spark some fun debate and conversation:

Let's say our Hemalurgist (as in, someone with the knowledge of Hemalurgy, wherever they originate from) is aware that it might be advisable to spike just one Singer rather than going around becoming a living embodiment of the song of forms.

 

 

Question 1:

What forms would be attractive?

Especially, what particular forms would be attractive to particular worldhoppers?

 

Warform sounds like the simple attractive one, in my opinion, especially for someone who is already a Pewterarm. But maybe an Elantrian would prefer Scholarform?

 

Do you think a Seeker (Bronze) who spikes a Singer with a Form of Power could hear Odium's Rythms too, or would they need a Voidspren for that too?

 

Could any other kind of Cosmere Magic make stormform's lightning abilities more reliable? Maybe a Coinshot would be able to shoot a piece of conductive metal behind you, then use that to direct the Lightning in that direction? This is the wildest and most destructive use I've come up with so far.

 

Certainly, Envoyform is very useful if you plan to travel the Cosmere a lot.

 

 

Question 2:

Or even if you decide to spike not the form, but the ability to grow a Gemheart - what Spren would be nice to take with you, if you managed to attract one?

 

 

 

Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I'd love to hear thoughts from other people on this!

 

(Note: I haven't quite finished RoW yet, so spoiler tags would still be appreciated)

[Quantus]

If I wanted to get Forms via Hemalurgy, I think Id try to spike the ability to grow a Gemheart, gaining the ability to gain (and change) forms.

Setting aside the Rosharan War and it's "sides" the Forms of Power are pretty attractive. Offhand, I think Envoyform would be the most useful for a Worldhopper, gaining the ability to Connect to the locals for language, and potentially more dramatic Connection effects when Worldhopping (since Connecting to the Shardworld to gain it's magic is a common theme). 

Nightform being precognitive and potentially operating on a Fortune effect could be very powerful, but lacking details it's hard to say right now (Era3 is supposed to illuminate this mystery).  

[KSub]

Interesting that you can steal singer forms but you couldn't steal surgebinding. Brandon said that technically you could steal it but the spren would likely not accept the bond. I guess most singer forms don't use sapient spren.

[Benkinsky]

On 9.2.2021 at 6:31 PM, KSub said:

Interesting that you can steal singer forms but you couldn't steal surgebinding. Brandon said that technically you could steal it but the spren would likely not accept the bond. I guess most singer forms don't use sapient spren.

yeah, you'd have to spike both the Surgebinder and the Spren. Otherwise the spren could just break the bond.

Though, interestingly, you know, maybe if you killed a Skybreaker in accordance with the law and spiked them and explained your situation you the highspren, they might even say "yeah, sure, I'm coming with you"

[Quantus]

On 2/9/2021 at 0:31 PM, KSub said:

Interesting that you can steal singer forms but you couldn't steal surgebinding. Brandon said that technically you could steal it but the spren would likely not accept the bond. I guess most singer forms don't use sapient spren.

All, by definition.  Eshonai and/or mentioned it at one point (in WoR I believe). 

8 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

yeah, you'd have to spike both the Surgebinder and the Spren. Otherwise the spren could just break the bond.

Though, interestingly, you know, maybe if you killed a Skybreaker in accordance with the law and spiked them and explained your situation you the highspren, they might even say "yeah, sure, I'm coming with you"

Agreed, I think you'd could (in theory) try to make your case to any of the Spren, so it would depend on the individuals. Though it is apparently possible to take additional steps to forcibly prevent the Spren from ending the Bond.  Maybe you put the bond in a Spike into the Spren instead of it's "natural" state, so that it cant release it voluntarily. Or Maybe you spike in so much Connection to yourself that they are anchored to you similar to how they are anchored to Roshar itself.

 

 

Quote

 

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

[KSub]

I wonder what that other thing would be. Its not the surgebinders half of the bond because spren can break bonds with radiants if they want to.

Maybe you would need to remove the sprens sapience? That would be pretty evil.

[Benkinsky]

yeah, maybe that. Then again, as far as I understood it so far, if you want to move a spren off-world you'd have to figure out a way for that anyway, so... maybe it has something to do with connection. Maybe if you could compound Duralumin?

 

On 9.2.2021 at 3:10 PM, Quantus said:

Offhand, I think Envoyform would be the most useful for a Worldhopper, gaining the ability to Connect to the locals for language, and potentially more dramatic Connection effects when Worldhopping (since Connecting to the Shardworld to gain it's magic is a common theme). 

 

 

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Or Maybe you spike in so much Connection to yourself that they are anchored to you similar to how they are anchored to Roshar itself.

 

Wait a damn minute

If Envoyform can "create" connection, which is how I understood it so far, I wonder if that would mean that an Envoyform Singer that bonded a spren (damn if only that was a thing ) that left Roshar could bring the spren with them??

 

 

[Quantus]

22 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

Wait a damn minute

If Envoyform can "create" connection, which is how I understood it so far, I wonder if that would mean that an Envoyform Singer that bonded a spren (damn if only that was a thing ) that left Roshar could bring the spren with them??

 

Interesting Idea, hard to say.  The lesser spren granting the form seems to be more housed in the gemheart of the singer, distinct from a Radiant Bond that is more external.  We've seen envoyform forming Connections, but we havent seen it manipulate pre-existing Bonds.  If that's a real limitation, they'd need to make a new Connection over-shadows the spren's Connection to the Planet (if that's even possible given that they are living Investiture). 

[mathiau]

On 09/02/2021 at 2:38 PM, Benkinsky said:

Do you think a Seeker (Bronze) who spikes a Singer with a Form of Power could hear Odium's Rythms too, or would they need a Voidspren for that too?

Seekers can hear the all of Roshar's and Odium's Rythms, period.

On 09/02/2021 at 2:38 PM, Benkinsky said:

Question 2:

Or even if you decide to spike not the form, but the ability to grow a Gemheart - what Spren would be nice to take with you, if you managed to attract one?

None of the known metal should have that power except maybe Lerasium, and using it that way would be stupid. But I think I would steal the ability to grow a Gemheart over just one form

5 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Wait a damn minute

If Envoyform can "create" connection, which is how I understood it so far, I wonder if that would mean that an Envoyform Singer that bonded a spren (damn if only that was a thing ) that left Roshar could bring the spren with them??

The problem is not to bring your spren with you, it's that your spren anchor you to the planet

[TheOneEyedFox]

Couldn’t you just use Lerasium?

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, mathiau said:

Seekers can hear the all of Roshar's and Odium's Rythms, period.

None of the known metal should have that power except maybe Lerasium, and using it that way would be stupid. But I think I would steal the ability to grow a Gemheart over just one form

The problem is not to bring your spren with you, it's that your spren anchor you to the planet

Shouldn’t it be Atium, not Lerasium?

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shouldn’t it be Atium, not Lerasium?

Lerasium steals attributes while Atium steals powers so I think we'd be using Lerasium here

[Frustration]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:01 PM, mathiau said:

Seekers can hear the all of Roshar's and Odium's Rythms, period.

We do not have confirmation on this, and it could be argued that a seeker would have to do something to be able to hear the rhythms

Spoiler

Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

General Signed Books 2016 (May 2, 2016)

 

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Lerasium steals attributes while Atium steals powers so I think we'd be using Lerasium here

Lerasium steals all abilities, which I take to be the non powered things the other spike steal, like weight and such.

and we have evidence that the gemheart is at least partially made due to investiture leaks from the SR

Spoiler

Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

 

[MGershone]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

Wait, so Brandon's saying that every chasmfiend, chull, singer, etc. has a mini perpendicularity inside them? That sounds like it could have some very interesting implications.

Also, is it really true that you can spike a singer for their attribute of having a gemheart? That seems like it would be a fact of biology.

Unless it's actually a perpendicularity, in which case you're stealing the singer's Connection to the Spiritual Realm! Or something! Now everything makes a certain degree of sense.

[mathiau]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

We do not have confirmation on this, and it could be argued that a seeker would have to do something to be able to hear the rhythms

  Reveal hidden contents

Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

General Signed Books 2016 (May 2, 2016)

 

That is true, I still doubt you'd have to do as much as OP implies though

Quote

Lerasium steals all abilities, which I take to be the non powered things the other spike steal, like weight and such.

and we have evidence that the gemheart is at least partially made due to investiture leaks from the SR

  Reveal hidden contents

Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

That is what I meant by attributes but yes, the chart says Lerasium-> abilities and Atium-> power

3 hours ago, MGershone said:

Wait, so Brandon's saying that every chasmfiend, chull, singer, etc. has a mini perpendicularity inside them? That sounds like it could have some very interesting implications.

We have seen many occasions of investiture leaking from the SR without Perpendicularites and some/ cases of Perpendicularities not making anything leak, we really ought to stop imagining Boundslith are the norm and not the exception

Quote

Also, is it really true that you can spike a singer for their attribute of having a gemheart? That seems like it would be a fact of biology.

This is exactly the fact Frustration and I are debating

By the way, if a gemheart is a (magical) biological thing then I was wrong about Lerasium being needed, iron can give the ability to feed of dirt if there's no way there wouldn't be a way to copy it

[+Bzhydack]

On 22.03.2021 at 0:00 AM, MGershone said:

Wait, so Brandon's saying that every chasmfiend, chull, singer, etc. has a mini perpendicularity inside them? That sounds like it could have some very interesting implications.

Its probably more about them absorbing some of Stormlight during Highstorms. We know Stormlight is important part of Rosharan ecology, so maybe this is part of it.

[MGershone]

17 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Its probably more about them absorbing some of Stormlight during Highstorms. We know Stormlight is important part of Rosharan ecology, so maybe this is part of it.

That's a good point, but that still means they naturally draw Investiture into themselves, even if it's through the storm's perpendicularity.