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Thaidakar is not a psychopath


Rashekin

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This is the first post this long that I make here, and it probably sounds weird, but it's because I'm using Google Translate and my language is Spanish.
Well, I've seen that for quite some time now, Kelsier has earned a reputation as a "psychopath" and a "villain", even affirmed by Brandon himself. But being more objective, I feel like that reputation is undeserved, although I agree that Kell is self-centered and an anti-hero because of his circumstances.

Getting to the point, some examples of why Kelsier can't be a psychopath are:

* He hates nobles (as Marsh hates obligators) because they murdered his mother when they found out that she was a skaa and not a noble. Killing so many nobles may have been ruthless, but really Kelsier had that hatred because he loved his mother, and it's no different than Kaladin's hatred for lighteyes due to the death of Tien and the people he couldn't protect, and Kal is not a psychopath for it (he suffers from depression but it is something radically different).

* Kelsier really loves his friends, he is uncompromisingly loyal and literally went to his death to protect his friends (Spook, OreSeur and the other prisoners).

* Kelsier really loved Mare, he always says it and it shows that it is true, an example of this is the beginning of Eleventh Metal (destroyed by her death) and then in a couple of conversations with Vin at TFE. A psychopath CANNOT love, and when he is with someone, he does it for convenience and thanks to manipulations, since he has a total lack of empathy.

* Kelsier's powers as Mistborn appeared from the pain of Mare's death.

* Kelsier really admires good people, according to WoB, although Kell is not quite a good person, but none of that means he is a psychopath and Dark Lord.

* Kelsier feels guilty when Vin was nearly killed by the inquisitors at Kredik Shaw, and a psychopath cannot feel guilty for his actions.

* Kelsier feels pain and sadness for the deaths of the army in TFE, then for the deaths of Dockson and Elend, and also for the comments of Ati before going to the Ire fortress. In particular, he feels pain, sadness and anger over the supposed death of Marsh, whom he loved for being his brother despite their differences (situation and subsequent revenge similar to what happened with his mother).

* After Vin was nearly killed by the inquisitors at Kredik Shaw, we are emphasized a million times that Kelsier became a much more thoughtful and better person, reaching the point where he did not kill nobles indiscriminately, saved the Elend's life and after Secret History, we see that he stopped having that hatred with which he killed nobles.

* According to Vin, when she and Kelsier visited skaa in the evenings, she felt that Kelsier genuinely loved and cared about skaa, and she probably did with Southerners as well.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Brandon's work and in general I agree and impressed with the construction of his characters, but Kelsier's bad reputation seems undeserved, and besides, there are main characters with actions that are as questionable or more despicable than Kelsier, for example:

* Wax feels no guilt in killing criminals.

* Kaladin had a fierce hatred of lighteyes, which he overcame, just as Kelsier largely overcame his hatred of nobles.

* Vin didn't feel guilty about killing koloss and inquisitors (although she did feel guilty about doing extreme killings, like the one she did with Zane), but herself, she was also an assassin.

* Elend felt no guilt in killing enemy koloss, inquisitors, and soldiers, plus in HoA he became a (but necessary) tyrant.

* Marsh hated obligors in a similar way to Kelsier with nobles (said by Marsh himself in TFE).

* And finally the most questionable of all, Dalinar. He was literally a tyrant and genocidal, he killed thousands and thousands of people to unify Aletzkhar, even burning an entire city, killing hundreds of people in each battle and enjoying the bloodbath (The Thrill is not an excuse, it is not like Ruin controlling the inquisitors, but rather like emotional allomancy, nothing to do with a control of people but igniting something they already feel). Dalinar is a great character but Kelsier did not kill a small part of what Dalinar did, who is not a psychopath and is redeemed despite carrying thousands and thousands of deaths on his back.

I also don't think that the fact that Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow makes him a villain, evil, or psychopath. He's only been around for 300 years and in the comfort of Scadrial. While, that the Cognitive Shadows that are crazy are the Heralds due to THOUSANDS of years of torture in Braize, in addition to that they have been 7000 years old, and Kelsier only 300 which is only about 5% that the Heralds.

I really like that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods, I think his crew was the antecedent of the organization, and that after the Catacendre and Spook bringing Kelsier to the Physical Realm with hemalurgy, the first Ghostbloods were Kell and Spook as leaders, Ham, Breeze, Allrianne, Beldre, Cett, Noorden, maybe Yomen and Marsh, and probably Felt. (Also, that would leave us with that The Set is a reaction to the Ghostbloods, and that in Scadrial both organizations have a feud like the Ghostbloods with the Sons of Honor in Roshar). The problem is that Mraize is despicable and that if Kelsier were in Roshar, the Ghostbloods would be less questionable, but hey, Mraize's actions DO NOT DEFINE the entire organization or Kelsier himself.

In closing, I thank those who have read this far. I think Kelsier is seen as "evil" right now but remember that the information is given by two really questionable people and they are probably worse than Kelsier: Kalak and our beloved Cephandrius. I hope Brandon amazes us with Kelsier's handling of Stormlight 5, Wax and Wayne 4, and Mistborn Era 3, and that he applies the Lord of the Scars mantra.

There is always another secret.

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Psychopath ≠ evil.

It is not meant to be merely an insult casually thrown out to say that someone has done terrible or crazy things, and the term is not being used that way in reference to Kelsier (well, presumably not by the author).

I’m pretty sure @Kingsdaughter613 can explain exactly why finding Kelsier admirable doesn’t mean he’s exempted from being called out for what he is, and vice versa. And this deserves a more in-depth, textually-supported response.

But for now, psychopathy (Wikipedia) is:

Quote

characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits.

That is Kelsier. That is not the other characters you mention. 

Hatred does not make Kelsier or anybody else a psychopath. The human incapacity to empathize with much more than a handful of people is normal. So is the brain’s heuristic tendency to divide the world into us and them, and then dehumanize the “them” to conserve thinking and empathy bandwidth.

In their extremes, these are all far from admirable qualities; but like the psychopathy-adjacent ability to detach from others’ pain enough to perform surgery, they are adaptive in minimal to moderate amounts within the appropriate context.

So, listing examples of other characters behaving like jerks, just like normal people, neither makes them villains nor makes Kelsier less of a potentially-diagnosable psychopath. Even comparing Kelsier’s mass murders to Dalinar’s war crimes doesn’t change anything, since psychopathy is a personality disorder and not a label earned by evil deeds.

Kelsier is a psychopath. Now, if you mean only to claim that he is not the evil person or villain he is perceived or portrayed as, that’s a different argument altogether.

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11 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Psychopath ≠ evil.

It is not meant to be merely an insult casually thrown out to say that someone has done terrible or crazy things, and the term is not being used that way in reference to Kelsier (well, presumably not by the author).

I’m pretty sure @Kingsdaughter613 can explain exactly why finding Kelsier admirable doesn’t mean he’s exempted from being called out for what he is, and vice versa. And this deserves a more in-depth, textually-supported response.

But for now, psychopathy (Wikipedia) is:

That is Kelsier. That is not the other characters you mention. 

Hatred does not make Kelsier or anybody else a psychopath. The human incapacity to empathize with much more than a handful of people is normal. So is the brain’s heuristic tendency to divide the world into us and them, and then dehumanize the “them” to conserve thinking and empathy bandwidth.

In their extremes, these are all far from admirable qualities; but like the psychopathy-adjacent ability to detach from others’ pain enough to perform surgery, they are adaptive in minimal to moderate amounts within the appropriate context.

So, listing examples of other characters behaving like jerks, just like normal people, neither makes them villains nor makes Kelsier less of a potentially-diagnosable psychopath. Even comparing Kelsier’s mass murders to Dalinar’s war crimes doesn’t change anything, since psychopathy is a personality disorder and not a label earned by evil deeds.

Kelsier is a psychopath. Now, if you mean only to claim that he is not the evil person or villain he is perceived or portrayed as, that’s a different argument altogether.

Thanks for the summon! Just to note: “like the psychopathy-adjacent ability to detach from others’ pain enough to perform surgery” Not “like.” Many law-abiding psychopaths are excellent, high risk surgeons for EXACTLY that reason. In fact, it’s one of the more likely places to find a neurological psychopath.

A neurological psychopath is not the same thing as a criminal one. Kelsier actually does pass the American PCL-R, meaning he would not be diagnosed as a psychopath. (The European cut off is lower and he’s right on the verge there.) Nor does he have ASPD. I would diagnose him as a clinical Narcissist though, although he’s not nearly as severe as some. He just happens to fit all the diagnostic criteria, lol!

I love Kell. He’s a great person and a fascinating person. But he’s not a good one, not naturally. He wants to be though and I think he is - slowly - working on becoming one.

Claiming he’s evil because he’s a psychopath is like claiming Steris is a ‘cold fish’ because she has Aspergers. Kelsier was born the way he is. Brandon has stated that it’s a difference in neurology, not a sociological development. He literally cannot change what he is - nor should he. Nothing stops a psychopath from being a decent person except their own choices. And they can always choose.

There’s an ancient Jewish philosophical teaching that, interestingly, talks about exactly this. It discusses how nearly every attribute (with the exception of pride) can be utilized for good. The Rabbis describe a man who is born with a desire for blood shed. Such a man, they say, can become one of three things: a murderer, and animal slaughterer, or a Sandek.

A murderer takes the desire for blood and turns it into a means of harming others. An animal slaughterer turns it into a career and a means of providing an important service to his community. A Sandek elevates the same desire for blood into the spiritual by performing circumcision and bringing the next generation into the community. (Please don’t debate the ethics of circumcision; the point is the Rabbis saw this as an important spiritual act.) 

So here we have something we instinctively see as bad: the desire to kill. And yet that desire can be turned into something beautiful and holy. And this is reflected in the real world. Some psychopaths becoming cruel criminals, genuinely evil men. Some become soldiers or cut throat business men, turning that same trait into a career. And some become surgeons, saving countless lives.

Psychopathy is just a trait and can be used for good or ill. It’s up to the individual to channel it for good. And Kelsier, per Brandon, does try to channel himself at what he perceives as good causes. He doesn’t always succeed, but the fact that he’s trying is what’s important. It’s not how many times you fall, but how many times you get back up. He wants to be good and - as this is Kelsier - he’s not about to stop just because it’s hard. Rusts, that’s probably half the reason he’s trying!

Here’s a sketch of our favorite Fullborn psychopath to finish this post. First card of the Minor Arcana, let’s give it up for our Mistborn of Spears!image.thumb.jpg.2d912e2d9df69da9141e77d9590e1e2a.jpg 

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21 hours ago, Kyn said:

Psychopath ≠ evil.

It is not meant to be merely an insult casually thrown out to say that someone has done terrible or crazy things, and the term is not being used that way in reference to Kelsier (well, presumably not by the author).

I’m pretty sure @Kingsdaughter613 can explain exactly why finding Kelsier admirable doesn’t mean he’s exempted from being called out for what he is, and vice versa. And this deserves a more in-depth, textually-supported response.

But for now, psychopathy (Wikipedia) is:

That is Kelsier. That is not the other characters you mention. 

Hatred does not make Kelsier or anybody else a psychopath. The human incapacity to empathize with much more than a handful of people is normal. So is the brain’s heuristic tendency to divide the world into us and them, and then dehumanize the “them” to conserve thinking and empathy bandwidth.

In their extremes, these are all far from admirable qualities; but like the psychopathy-adjacent ability to detach from others’ pain enough to perform surgery, they are adaptive in minimal to moderate amounts within the appropriate context.

So, listing examples of other characters behaving like jerks, just like normal people, neither makes them villains nor makes Kelsier less of a potentially-diagnosable psychopath. Even comparing Kelsier’s mass murders to Dalinar’s war crimes doesn’t change anything, since psychopathy is a personality disorder and not a label earned by evil deeds.

Kelsier is a psychopath. Now, if you mean only to claim that he is not the evil person or villain he is perceived or portrayed as, that’s a different argument altogether.

I know that Kelsier fits a couple of symptoms of psychopathy, but there are other symptoms that define psychopathy like an inability to love, a lack of empathy, and no guilt for your actions.

I recently finished my rereading of Mistborn Era 1, Eleventh Metal, and Secret History. I looked at the things I said in the main post, like love for his mother Marsh, her crew and especially Mare. If Kelsier were a psychopath, he would never have loved any of them, he would not have hated the nobility for taking his mother from him, he would not have suffered Mare's death, he would not have felt guilt for his actions, he would not have empathized with the Skaa or the Southerners, he would not have hurt the deaths of his friends or avenged himself on the nobles and the Lord Ruler. People use Kelsier's hatred towards the nobles as an argument to say that he is a psychopath, but nobody remembers that this hatred is thanks to the death of his mother and years later Mare, it is exactly the same as Kaladin's hatred towards the lighteyes for the deaths of Tien and the others whom he could not protect, only that Kelsier constantly took revenge.

What I'm going to is that in Cosmere, there are other characters who are closer to being psychopaths than Kelsier, for example Dalinar until his visit to the valley (those were not just "war crimes" as you say, it was a constant genocide by decades, with which Dalinar ALWAYS enjoyed the bloodbath and never felt remorse for it all until he killed Evi. Dalinar carries more murders on his back than any other main character in Cosmere, and by far), Moash after switching to side of Odium; Nale, and probably Sadeas and Straff Venture.

Really, I think Kelsier is not a good person but he is trying to be, he is probably a narcissist but NOT a psychopath, based on the fact that Kelsier can love, feels pain and sadness, loves his friends, took revenge on the nobles and the Lord Ruler For taking away his mother and Mare (whom he really loved, and also his mother), he feels guilty for his actions and has empathy with people.

Edited by Rashekin
The quote was in Spanish by the Chrome translator
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20 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Here’s a sketch of our favorite Fullborn psychopath to finish this post. First card of the Minor Arcana, let’s give it up for our Mistborn of Spears!image.thumb.jpg.2d912e2d9df69da9141e77d9590e1e2a.jpg 

That sketch is really cool! I always imagined Kelsier with hair like this, a bit long, and the flowers being a reference to the Ghostbloods logo, great!

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5 hours ago, Rashekin said:

That sketch is really cool! I always imagined Kelsier with hair like this, a bit long, and the flowers being a reference to the Ghostbloods logo, great!

Thank you!

The Marewill = GB logo idea isn’t mine, but I’ve adopted the headcannon. The flower was the unofficial symbol of the Crew, so Kelsier continuing to operate under Mare’s flower just feels right to me.

The completed picture is in fan works, if you’d like to see it.

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16 hours ago, Rashekin said:

I know that Kelsier fits a couple of symptoms of psychopathy, but there are other symptoms that define psychopathy like an inability to love, a lack of empathy, and no guilt for your actions.

I recently finished my rereading of Mistborn Era 1, Eleventh Metal, and Secret History. I looked at the things I said in the main post, like love for his mother Marsh, her crew and especially Mare. If Kelsier were a psychopath, he would never have loved any of them, he would not have hated the nobility for taking his mother from him, he would not have suffered Mare's death, he would not have felt guilt for his actions, he would not have empathized with the Skaa or the Southerners, he would not have hurt the deaths of his friends or avenged himself on the nobles and the Lord Ruler. People use Kelsier's hatred towards the nobles as an argument to say that he is a psychopath, but nobody remembers that this hatred is thanks to the death of his mother and years later Mare, it is exactly the same as Kaladin's hatred towards the lighteyes for the deaths of Tien and the others whom he could not protect, only that Kelsier constantly took revenge.

What I'm going to is that in Cosmere, there are other characters who are closer to being psychopaths than Kelsier, for example Dalinar until his visit to the valley (those were not just "war crimes" as you say, it was a constant genocide by decades, with which Dalinar ALWAYS enjoyed the bloodbath and never felt remorse for it all until he killed Evi. Dalinar carries more murders on his back than any other main character in Cosmere, and by far), Moash after switching to side of Odium; Nale, and probably Sadeas and Straff Venture.

Really, I think Kelsier is not a good person but he is trying to be, he is probably a narcissist but NOT a psychopath, based on the fact that Kelsier can love, feels pain and sadness, loves his friends, took revenge on the nobles and the Lord Ruler For taking away his mother and Mare (whom he really loved, and also his mother), he feels guilty for his actions and has empathy with people.

Right, so, a sourced reply.

We’re not using Kelsier’s actions to say he’s a psychopath. That would be conflating psychopathy with bad deeds. We’re using the fact that the person who created him – an author who most assuredly did do the research – says he is neurologically a psychopath and wrote him that way, supported by Kelsier’s own behavior and especially his internal reactions, to argue that Kelsier is a psychopath.

Spoiler

And rarely does anybody with any condition ever perfectly fit everything you would stereotypically or clinically expect of the condition. Scientifically, psychopathy is sometimes diagnosed by brain scans specifically because people don’t check all the boxes perfectly.

It wouldn’t make sense to deny that someone with the brain differences for it was on the more-innocuous autism spectrum because they don’t meet every single potential description of the condition. When I see someone refusing to accept a psychopathic diagnosis for the same reason, it makes me wonder if they are considering the psychopathy spectrum as a mark of evil to be avoided rather than a useful descriptive tool.

As @Kingsdaughter613 said, Kelsier would not necessarily be diagnosed as a clinical psychopath, but this does not change his neurological makeup to at least some degree preventing him from feeling normal empathy.

Please be careful about using the term psychopath as an insult rather than a neurological description. It’s not like they aren’t human beings.

They are perfectly capable of loyalty and the trappings of love toward people they choose to value, even if these things don’t necessarily meet the emotional depth or compassion of what we would consider loyalty or love. And being vengeful because their people are hurt is well within their capacity (and in fact, may be more likely than for a neurotypical person, since they only care about their people and not their targets).

Even people incredibly high in trait psychopathy are capable of feeling for themselves, just not others. But people lower in trait psychopathy – as I imagine Kelsier to be – may be capable of actual caring.

And once somebody is part of their circle, many psychopaths can feel for that person – as an extension of themselves and their identity. People separate from them don’t matter. People who are part of their crew can matter to them to the same obsessive, intense levels as the psychopaths themselves.

…Sounds like someone we know.

Or maybe let actual psychopaths, and real-world studies about them, explain (all emphasis mine).

Spoiler

There’s Athena Walker (high trait psychopathy) and a link to one of her many great threads over at Quora. Her insight might be slightly more credible than neurotypical opinions:

Quote

A good number of psychopaths that I have had dealings with are fiercely loyal. This is no different when there is a significant other that has my respect. I am very loyal. Leaving is not an option I give to myself. If leaving isn't an option, then figuring out how to work within the relationship is what has to happen. It takes a very specific type of person to be this with me, but when I have it, it is without a doubt, psychopathic love.

They would be the ones that would stand with you no matter what, and the ones you would go to the ends of the earth to help. They are the only ones you care about and the difference between them and the outside world is vast. To get there it's about trust, and trust for us can be very very tenuous. It takes a good while and a lot of effort to build the trust, and it can be easily shaken. If they keep showing you that they are worth your time, they can be great additions to your life. To have them, you are going to have to actually consider their needs. Even if the reason you act is because you know it makes them happy, and in turn that serves your overall need. It's the smallest inkling that what is good for them is something you want to do for them that is what you have to intentionally focus on. Once you have done that, you will see growth there. We can be great friends, but those friendships can take years to reach past our mistrust.

There’s another Quora user, Misty Anderson (low trait psychopathy), who explains here how their resistance to PTSD as a psychopath was most disrupted by harm to the people they cared about:

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I believe I am on the lower to mid spectrum of psychopathy, which means I can feel something for others but only to a select few and even then, it is because they are MY loves and are percieved, in my mind as being part of me. The things I found most traumatic were percieved losses relating to the few individuals that helped me to feel something. This was important to be because I have a hard time feeling.

The study referenced in Psychology Today here showed that, for psychopaths:

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By heightening their awareness of the group, even with a very slight manipulation, the members of their own team became an extension of their own sense of self.

Psychopaths are perfectly capable of Kelsier’s levels of loyalty, and some even of caring, as long as limited to those they consider theirs. This also means that betraying them or those they consider theirs risks inviting utter unsympathetic devastation in retaliation.

Let’s look at Kelsier.

First, please share citations of Kelsier showing empathy. I found evidence of him having feelings for, or being attached to, people, but that is entirely different and I would like to understand where you’re coming from.

Yes, he seems to genuinely miss Mare. I personally believe he’s not on the high end in trait psychopathy for a psychopath, because he seems to feel for those he has adopted into his crew. However, most successful psychopaths are disturbingly good at intellectual empathy and at faking empathy even though they lack normal empathy, so he could be higher than I think and still look like he’s grieving.

But as pointed out by real psychopaths, mourning for somebody a low trait psychopath has accepted into their circle is not impossible, and the appearance of real feelings is a hallmark of successful psychopaths.

But I’m convinced Kelsier is neurologically a psychopath like his creator says because there’s a reason Kelsier is the type of person who

Spoiler

has to be reminded that revenge isn’t the only goal of his plan to free the skaa. As he says in ch. 31 of Mistborn:

Quote

“…Regardless, perhaps I need to spend a little less time worrying about which noblemen to kill, and a little more time worrying about which peasants to help.”

The kind of “love” Kelsier shows for those on his side is also utterly in line with the way psychopaths manipulate people so that they can maintain control using emotional strings they can clearly see but not so clearly feel.

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He really does seem to care for them, Vin thought, watching Kelsier pick up a small child. I don’t think it’s just a show. This is how he is—he loves people, loves the skaa. But…it’s more like the love of a parent for a child than it is like the love of a man for his equals.

Was that so wrong? He was, after all, a kind of father to the skaa. He was the noble lord they always should have had. Still, Vin couldn’t help feeling uncomfortable as she watched the faintly illuminated, dirty faces of those skaa families, their eyes worshipful and reverent.

Treating people like they are chattel who need to be led, taking charge and domineering, and earning almost worship is pretty standard psychopath behavior according to research. Psychopaths are very good at convincing other people to make them leaders and at looking like they know best and actually care. Where Kaladin differs is that he’s genuinely trying to protect the people who end up following him, as opposed to trying to use them.

From Quora again, Jacob Wells, another psychopath, explaining how they present themselves to others:

Quote

If we become close, I gain their trust fully by doing and/ or offering to do immense favors that nobody else would do. I offer to solve their problems, in any way possible, and then ask them how far to take it so I don't violate their morals. If they don't like a teacher/ coworker/ neighbor/ whatever, I offer to get rid of them. If they say don't put them in prison I'll get them fired. If they say don't get them fired I'll trash their reputation, or scare them into backing off. I keep secrets, and tell them fake secrets to further gain their trust, and once they trust me enough, i ask for favors, reminding them of the favors I did them. I can get literally anything from them, which is incredibly useful. 

That's how I present myself, and then gain the trust of others.

Yeah, I’d imagine Kelsier is low enough in trait psychopathy that he genuinely cares for his friends (because they are his, not because people deserve to be cared about), and is driven to revenge on their behalf. Kaladin wants revenge for his brother, but on his way to getting it, he doesn’t merely collect a crack team around him full of useful people who can best meet his goals (and a larger team of expendable cannon fodder) like Kelsier does. Kaladin seeks out people who need his protection, liabilities who make it harder to achieve what he wants but whom he desperately tries to protect.

But Kelsier doesn’t doesn’t have nobler goals, like protecting the skaa. He instead uses the skaa and the fight for their freedom to advance his revenge, knowingly leaving them to be slaughtered with the martyrdom his goal requires. So he definitely is high enough in trait psychopathy to be a psychopath.

Mistborn ch. 35:

Quote

Hundreds of skaa had been massacred following Kelsier’s death, and hundreds more had been trampled during the rush to escape.

And that was just the beginning of the backlash Kelsier planned for, depended on to fuel the rebellion that would bring his goal to fruition.

In The Hero of Ages ch. 12, his friends lay it out:

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“He was a man,” Vin said quietly. “Just a man. Yet, you always knew he’d succeed. He made you be what he wanted you to be.”

“So he could use you,” Breeze said.

But let’s take Kelsier’s own word for it, in Arcanum Unbounded where it’s not just Vin’s inchoate and untrusted suspicions or the judgment of other showing what Kelsier is (full of spoilers for Arcanum Unbounded).

Spoiler

In Arcanum Unbounded’s Mistborn prequel “The Eleventh Metal” Kelsier thinks:

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How can we stand a world like this? Kelsier thought, moving to help another captive. Where things like this happen? The most appalling tragedy was that he knew this sort of horror was common. Skaa were disposable. There was nobody to protect them. Nobody cared.

Not even him. He’d spent most of his life ignoring such acts of brutality. Oh, he’d pretended to fight back. But he’d really just been about enriching himself. All of those plans, all of those heists, all of his grand visions. All about him. Him alone.

This doesn’t change in his future.

In Arcanum Unbounded’s “Mistborn: Secret History” we can see the difference between how Kelsier focuses on what he has lost and how he feels angry and bitter and ashamed when a friend dies, versus how Kelsier perceives Preservation’s grief and pain at losses and deaths in ch. 1 of Part 3: Spirit from “Secret Histories” (bolding emphasis mine):

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Kelsier trembled, feeling lost. “I…” Kelsier said.

Dox. I wasn’t here for him. I could have seen him again, as he passed. Talked to him. Saved him maybe?

“He cursed you as he died, Kelsier,” Preservation said, voice harsh. “He blamed you for all this.”

Kelsier bowed his head. Another lost friend. And Clubs too … two good men. He’d lost too many of those in his life, dammit. Far too many.

I’m sorry, Dox, Clubs. I’m sorry for failing you.

Kelsier took that anger, that bitterness and shame, and channeled it. He’d found purpose again during his days in prison. He wouldn’t lose it now.

He stood and turned to Preservation. The god—shockingly—cringed as if frightened. Kelsier seized the god’s form, and in a brief moment was given a vision of the grandness beyond. The pervading light of Preservation that permeated all things. The world, the mists, the metals, the very souls of men. This creature was somehow dying, but his power was far from gone.

He also felt Preservation’s pain. It was the loss Kelsier had felt at Dox’s death, only magnified thousands of times over. Preservation felt every light that went out, felt them and knew them as a person he had loved.


We see a me-centered versus an empathetic reaction to loss here. Kelsier loses his purpose with his friend’s death, but takes his anger to use that loss as a tool to create new purpose just like when he lost Mare. Preservation hurts for his losses. That’s the psychopath brain versus the normative brain in a nutshell.

So, unless we’re to assume that both the person who wrote him and Kelsier himself fail to understand the mind that only the two of them have access to, Kelsier is a psychopath.

And then, what did you mean by “just” (as in “merely”) war crimes? War crimes are among the worst possible atrocities that can be committed. Every genocide tends to fall under the term because they are inherently acts of war. The Holocaust was a war crime.

If you are saying that accusing Dalinar of a war crime is letting him off, you are dismissing what war crimes actually are. And if you are saying that committing war crimes like genocide makes somebody a psychopath, you are demeaning psychopaths and putting the rest of us on too high of a pedestal.

Dalinar committed atrocities, and even if the Thrill pushed him further than he would have gone without it, he willingly gave in to it and even sought it out. However, glorying in wreaking destruction and being bloodthirsty is a Hollywood depiction of psychopathy-used-as-a-slur, and is completely divorced from the reality of the neurological differences of psychopathy the author was portraying in Kelsier.

The extremities of desire to fight and kill brought on by the Thrill are neither relevant to psychopathy nor – given the even more intense effect the Thrill had on soldiers from nations not accustomed to engaging in such devastating wars, making them kill nearly everybody – to Dalinar’s neurological makeup. The Thrill is a mind-altering substance.

Dalinar’s embrace of the Thrill, however, tells us something about him. Like that he needed help to not feel for his victims and to continue killing as he had.

Spoiler

In his more recent history, Dalinar tries to use the Thrill to push away the nausea of killing (especially the young) that a psychopath wouldn’t feel. Not to kill more, but to continue killing enemies who didn’t matter to him without having to feel pain for it that a psychopath wouldn’t feel. But let’s limit ourselves to his pre-Cultivation Blackthorn past since you seem to be saying he’s rather literally a different person now, even though Cultivation claims she didn’t alter his personality beyond excising memories.

Before Cultivation, Dalinar used alcohol to rid himself of feelings of guilt and grief, and showed signs of ruminative guilt and flashbacks. He also seemed to be psychologically addicted to alcohol (using it as a coping mechanism), which isn’t something psychopaths need or do.

In Oathbringer ch. 49 we see Dalinar addicted to far more:

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Dalinar crossed his arms on the table, grinding his teeth. The firemoss wasn’t working. Yes, it gave him a quick rush of euphoria, but that only made him want the greater headiness of the Thrill. Even now he felt on edge—he had the urge to smash this table and everything in the room. He’d been so ready for the fight; he’d surrendered to the temptation, and then had the pleasure stolen from him.

He felt all the shame of losing control, but none of the satisfaction of actually getting to fight.

This reliance on substances to avoid emotional pain is not common amongst psychopaths, who are drastically less likely than other soldiers to experience PTSD, and tend to have much milder versions. Their lack of empathy seems to protect them.

But even assuming we don’t believe Dalinar had anything like PTSD at that time, he was at the very least using substances to distract himself from Navani, a woman he wanted but let go with his brother because that was who she chose.

That, alone, is about as far from the behavior of a psychopath as imaginable, especially when Dalinar restrains himself from killing his brother under the Thrill’s urging. Self-restraint and self-denial are not things psychopaths engage in without a greater motivating goal, and often not even then. That’s why corporate psychopaths are often so bad at their jobs, with the unnecessary risks taken and grasping after what they want no matter the consequences.

There is tons of in-text evidence that Dalinar committed atrocities in war, but it tended to come with evidence that he was an addict rather than a psychopath. Even in Oathbringer, where we see his slaughterous (made-up word) past and how he reveled in The (Thrill of the) Fight, Dalinar refused to kill a child who would almost certainly later present a threat because of it.

Oathbringer ch. 11:

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Tanalan lay on the ground here, blood surrounding him. A beautiful woman was draped across him, weeping. Only one other person was in the small chamber: a young boy. Six, perhaps seven. Tears streaked the child’s face, and he struggled to lift his father’s Shardblade in two hands.

Dalinar loomed in the doorway.

“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You … you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said … we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…”

Letting that child who essentially promised to keep fighting him go was sentimentality.

A psychopath who kept the boy alive would have also kept (or kept control over) the boy, using him as a tool he could manipulate, or use to manipulate those who might hold loyalty to the boy.

Even Vin, whom Kelsier seemed to come to love as much as he did anyone, was spared explicitly to be a tool, and manipulated toward specific ends. That’s the difference between a person who has done terrible things sparing a child and a psychopath sparing a child: one is done out of empathy/sympathy/guilt, the other is done to take advantage of that child.

Dalinar also has a history, prior to burning a city, of reining in Sadeas’ more-sadistic tendencies. This is something a man who believed in the principle of “obedience or death” and “might makes right” did not have practical reasons to do, only sentimental ones.

Oathbringer ch. 76:

Quote

Those screams … Dalinar passed lines of soldiers who waited along the northern rim in silent horror; many wouldn’t have been with Dalinar and Gavilar during the early years of their conquest, when they’d allowed pillaging and ransacking of cities. And for those who did remember … well, he’d often found an excuse to stop things like this before.

This self-doubt and vacillation, being eaten up by his past deeds, is nothing a psychopath would know. And sentimentality that does not advance a personal goal is also antithetical to psychopathy.

tl;dr if you’re not here for the sources:

Kelsier was willing to destabilize his world, betray his friends, and even die to achieve his goals and vengeance, whereas Kaladin repeatedly prioritized protecting people who weren’t even useful to him even while seeking vengeance. Dalinar, who was guilty of war crimes, nevertheless was unlike Kelsier in being too addictive, sentimental, and willing to give up on what he wanted (Navani) to be as goal-driven as someone neurologically a psychopath. Conflating committing atrocities with psychopathy does nobody any good, and refusing to accept Kelsier for what he is demeans any effort he takes to be(have like) a decent human being.

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@Kyn I mostly agree with you, with one exception:

“Kelsier took that anger, that bitterness and shame, and channeled itHe’d found purpose again during his days in prison. He wouldn’t lose it now.”

This is not a psychopathic trait. It’s actually a trait common to people with the Survivor’s mentality. That ability helped a lot of Survivors keep going after the Holocaust, choosing to turn their pain into constructive ends. And I was trained to think that way all my life by parents who were children of those Survivors.

For a gentler variant: When my older daughter was seemingly dying in trauma at two months old, I turned to my Dad and told him, “we will make something good of this.” And he immediately understood what I meant.

We’re survivors. Children and grandchildren of people who survived the greatest horror this world has known. Descendants of a people who have been repeatedly massacred. My very existence is my grandparents revenge.

So, to me, Kelsier’s reaction is the only reasonable one. Of course you turn grief and pain into purpose - if my grandparents hadn’t, where would I be? The fact that he’s a psychopath probably helped him develop that particular cognitive trick, but it’s actually a trait common to many Survivors - not just the man given that title.

TLDR; Kelsier has many psychopathic traits, but that actually isn’t one of them. That’s just a natural result of him being a survivor, and you’ll find it among many people who have gone through hell.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier has many psychopathic traits, but that actually isn’t one of them. That’s just a natural result of him being a survivor, and you’ll find it among many people who have gone through hell.

I 100% agree with you on that. This is not a psychopathic trait. I’m sorry to make it sound like that.

I suspect I’m just a terrible communicator, but I was trying to point out that, for Kelsier, that drive for purpose and achieving his goals was all there seemed to be coming out of this loss. Well, aside from those darker emotions.

Not the pain we usually associate with grief for another person as opposed to losing something that belonged to him, not hunger to protect what remained. I suspect that survivors lower in trait psychopathy tend more to focus on pressing ahead with life or protecting their people; although frankly, just pressing ahead is an effective short-term goal some of us never get past.

I think of the less empathetic mind as focusing on achieving goals more exclusively. For a psychopath, perhaps dominating and attaining all goals rather than living and doing something good despite, with, or through the pain.

I guess your real-life story makes that point better than I ever could, of how different it is – how much more constructive and prosocial – when Survivors find purpose like this.

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5 minutes ago, Kyn said:

I 100% agree with you on that. This is not a psychopathic trait. I’m sorry to make it sound like that.

I suspect I’m just a terrible communicator, but I was trying to point out that, for Kelsier, that drive for purpose and achieving his goals was all there seemed to be coming out of this loss. Well, aside from those darker emotions.

Not the pain we usually associate with grief for another person as opposed to losing something that belonged to him, not hunger to protect what remained. I suspect that survivors lower in trait psychopathy tend more to focus on pressing ahead with life or protecting their people; although frankly, just pressing ahead is an effective short-term goal some of us never get past.

I think of the less empathetic mind as focusing on achieving goals more exclusively. For a psychopath, perhaps dominating and attaining all goals rather than living and doing something good despite, with, or through the pain.

I guess your real-life story makes that point better than I ever could, of how different it is – how much more constructive and prosocial – when Survivors find purpose like this.

I had good role models. I think people do miss how much of a revenge element there was in rebuilding though. I knew very well that my life was a form of revenge. Not just revenge, but it definitely is a part. I mean, when someone wants to wipe you from the face of the earth what better revenge is there?

I think in the face of what happened with my daughter, Kell would have directed himself at eradicating, well, any number of things that might have caused her to get sick. (We don’t actually know what it was.) But as she lived, I think he would have focused on pushing her as far as she could to encourage her recovery. Either would have been to a good end.

Just like he takes his grief for Dox and channels it toward defeating Ruin.

Which I think is the important thing here. Yes, Kell’s emotions work very differently than other people’s. And they are no less valid for that. I think he does love, just in a very different way than most people. And he certainly doesn’t understand it the way most people do. But that doesn’t make what he feels lesser.

In the end, he has a choice. And he has chosen to be better. He moves away from mere vengeance toward the end of TFE, realizing that Vin is right about the nobles. He comes to see the good in Elend, even if he’ll never care about him the way he does his crew. He sees his own words turned against him and recognizes the flaws. And he does feel guilt, albeit with difficulty. Is he a good man? No. But he is, in his own way, trying to be a better one.

And, in the end, does the why really matter? If Kelsier frees the Skaa for revenge are they any less free? If Dalinar murders a number of innocents in a fury and rage, but truly feels guilty about it, are they any less dead? If Taravangian slowly murders people to gain an advantage while genuinely mourning every death, are the people less dead? Honestly, I think the non-psychopathic ones are worse. They see people as people and kill them anyway. Kelsier just... doesn’t see people.

(And note that Kell would not be willing to go as far as Taravangian, nor is he willing to kill children. He has his lines and he doesn’t cross them.)

As far as I’m concerned, if someone lives their lives trying to better, trying to do good as best they can, then they are a decent person. The why matters a lot less than the what. I’ll take a neurological psychopath leading a law abiding life over a neurotypical murderer. I don’t need to know why they live that life, just that they do. In the end, it’s our actions, not our thought processes, that matter.

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14 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honestly, I think the non-psychopathic ones are worse. They see people as people and kill them anyway. Kelsier just... doesn’t see people

Yup, that’s why I think it’s so important to a knowledge that Kelsier is a psychopath and that Dalinar is not. Even given identical consequences, a person who sees other people as background at best but does terrible things hasn’t risen to the same level of evil-doing as somebody who has to actively work to see people as enemies in order to kill them. One’s a casual evil, one’s very intentional.

Likewise, when someone who doesn’t care about other people goes out of their way to do well by others, that’s a lot more impressive than when a person with normal empathy levels doesn’t have to make any effort to do the same.

To be fair though, I think our brains are designed so that most people with normal empathy dehumanize their enemies to the point of not thinking of them as people. Not that it’s better to choose to have no empathy for some. That kind of “psychopathy by choice” might be largely automated, just as a neurological psychopath not considering casualties or other consequences as long as they get what they want can be; but in both cases, we can choose to derail that instinctual leaning and be better people.

22 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

As far as I’m concerned, if someone lives their lives trying to better, trying to do good as best they can, then they are a decent person.

That. I don’t think “law-abiding” is anywhere near as positive a characteristic as “moral and prosocial”, so I focus on adherence to laws that meet that criterion. But you hit the nail on the head. 

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2 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Yup, that’s why I think it’s so important to a knowledge that Kelsier is a psychopath and that Dalinar is not. Even given identical consequences, a person who sees other people as background at best but does terrible things hasn’t risen to the same level of evil-doing as somebody who has to actively work to see people as enemies in order to kill them. One’s a casual evil, one’s very intentional.

Likewise, when someone who doesn’t care about other people goes out of their way to do well by others, that’s a lot more impressive than when a person with normal empathy levels doesn’t have to make any effort to do the same.

To be fair though, I think our brains are designed so that most people with normal empathy dehumanize their enemies to the point of not thinking of them as people. Not that it’s better to choose to have no empathy for some. That kind of “psychopathy by choice” might be largely automated, just as a neurological psychopath not considering casualties or other consequences as long as they get what they want can be; but in both cases, we can choose to derail that instinctual leaning and be better people.

That. I don’t think “law-abiding” is anywhere near as positive a characteristic as “moral and prosocial”, so I focus on adherence to laws that meet that criterion. But you hit the nail on the head. 

Yeah, that’s what I meant by law abiding. I just couldn’t come up with a better term. Thanks for finding it!

And basically everything you said is why I love Kell. Especially since Brandon canonized that he really was trying to do right by the Skaa as part of his motivations which, as you noted, is a huge deal for a psychopath.

And yeah, Taravangian is terrifying to me because he’s NOT a psychopath. He genuinely cares about every person he has slowly murdered. And he does it anyway. THAT is true evil. And that’s why I think he’s the best villain Brandon has ever created.

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