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A woman scorned


Ixthos

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Who wants to bet that Hoid and Jasnah is not just going to end badly, but that, if Jasnah survives the end of the Stormlight Archive, whether or not she becomes a shard (and DEFINITELY if she becomes a Worldhopper) she is going to be gunning for Hoid. I think Hoid might well end up betraying her in order to achieve some important goal to him and the cosmere, and even if she can appreciate the logic of it ....

Bonus points if Hoid already has other former lovers as worldhoppers who have a grudge. It would fit the theme of everyone who interacts with him for extended periods wanting revenge or just disliking him (Shallan's reaction of warmth towards him being one of the few moments he is rendered speechless).

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8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Who wants to bet that Hoid and Jasnah is not just going to end badly, but that, if Jasnah survives the end of the Stormlight Archive, whether or not she becomes a shard (and DEFINITELY if she becomes a Worldhopper) she is going to be gunning for Hoid. I think Hoid might well end up betraying her in order to achieve some important goal to him and the cosmere, and even if she can appreciate the logic of it ....

Bonus points if Hoid already has other former lovers as worldhoppers who have a grudge. It would fit the theme of everyone who interacts with him for extended periods wanting revenge or just disliking him (Shallan's reaction of warmth towards him being one of the few moments he is rendered speechless).

Kaladin likes him to roshar seems to be the only place he is forming positive relationships 

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I don't know why, but I kind of expect Hoid to leave very abruptly, leaving Jasnah nothing but a note saying something like "it's been fun, seeya!".

I don't think Jasnah's the type of person to pursue revenge over a bad break up, but Hoid might prefer avoiding her entirely rather than any direct confrontation when he inevitably has to return to Roshar for part 2 where Jasnah's the main character.

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…It seems like such a disservice to Jasnah’s character to expect her to fall into some sort of vengeance-seeking spurned lover stereotype. I’d bet she’d let hurt feelings fuel vengeance against Hoid if he betrayed Roshar or her family, but over a relationship?

Even ignoring that this is Jasnah, vendetta-ing over a relationship seems out of character coming from someone either where she seems to be on the Ace Aro spectrum, or where she seems to be in regards to letting emotionless über-practicality rule her. Let alone from someone in both those places together.

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I agree with @LuckyJim and @Kyn.  Yes, it's going to end, and probably awkwardly.  I mean... HOID.  But Jasnah isn't the type to get bent out of shape by something like that.  If anything, she will be the "yes we had a relationship and now it's over but I'll still be formally polite and treat you as an important ally" type.

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8 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't know why, but I kind of expect Hoid to leave very abruptly, leaving Jasnah nothing but a note saying something like "it's been fun, seeya!".

I don't think Jasnah's the type of person to pursue revenge over a bad break up, but Hoid might prefer avoiding her entirely rather than any direct confrontation when he inevitably has to return to Roshar for part 2 where Jasnah's the main character.

 

7 hours ago, Kyn said:

…It seems like such a disservice to Jasnah’s character to expect her to fall into some sort of vengeance-seeking spurned lover stereotype. I’d bet she’d let hurt feelings fuel vengeance against Hoid if he betrayed Roshar or her family, but over a relationship?

Even ignoring that this is Jasnah, vendetta-ing over a relationship seems out of character coming from someone either where she seems to be on the Ace Aro spectrum, or where she seems to be in regards to letting emotionless über-practicality rule her. Let alone from someone in both those places together.

 

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I agree with @LuckyJim and @Kyn.  Yes, it's going to end, and probably awkwardly.  I mean... HOID.  But Jasnah isn't the type to get bent out of shape by something like that.  If anything, she will be the "yes we had a relationship and now it's over but I'll still be formally polite and treat you as an important ally" type.

 

To clarify, I am not saying Jasnah is going to go after Hoid because he just up and left one day - we know from Hoid's interactions with Shai that he will betray people to possible death - or at least to situations he knows they can get out of but which might lead to death - in order to further his goals, which might well be noble goals. He has said he will let all of Roshar burn if he has to. I am not suggestiong Hoid leaves, cheats, insults the way she looks in a dress and that is why their relationship ends (though I imagine if any of his other lovers are still active they might consider what he has done to be any of the above). I'm suggesting that he does something that puts Roshar in danger, that he uses Jasnah and her affection for him to put those she cares about in danger, undermining their efforts. So then he becomes a danger, possible in possession of something they need, AND a betrayer.

More to the point, if Hoid's other lovers are still around then Jasnah, as an Ace Aromantic, would be a nice counterpoint to the others who likely aren't Ace or Aromantic, someone who was a lover but whose motives for hunting him aren't from being jilted.

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7 hours ago, Ixthos said:

 

 

 

To clarify, I am not saying Jasnah is going to go after Hoid because he just up and left one day - we know from Hoid's interactions with Shai that he will betray people to possible death - or at least to situations he knows they can get out of but which might lead to death - in order to further his goals, which might well be noble goals. He has said he will let all of Roshar burn if he has to. I am not suggestiong Hoid leaves, cheats, insults the way she looks in a dress and that is why their relationship ends (though I imagine if any of his other lovers are still active they might consider what he has done to be any of the above). I'm suggesting that he does something that puts Roshar in danger, that he uses Jasnah and her affection for him to put those she cares about in danger, undermining their efforts. So then he becomes a danger, possible in possession of something they need, AND a betrayer.

More to the point, if Hoid's other lovers are still around then Jasnah, as an Ace Aromantic, would be a nice counterpoint to the others who likely aren't Ace or Aromantic, someone who was a lover but whose motives for hunting him aren't from being jilted.

She’s ace, not aro. She’s heteromantic.

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

She’s ace, not aro. She’s heteromantic.

My mistake. Either way, someone who could join the other group of possible jilted ex-loves of Hoid, only with far more pragmatic motivations, a foil to their attitudes towards him.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

She’s ace, not aro. She’s heteromantic.

Jasnah’s self-admittedly demiromantic on the aro spectrum, only attracted to (or at least interested in heteroromantic relationships with) men she has an established respect for or connection with.

RoW ch. 99, emphasis mine:

Quote

Wit unfolded a paper from his pocket, still kneeling beside her. He seemed to genuinely like her, and she found his companionship invigorating. Full of questions, delights, and surprises. She could provide the intimacy he desired, though she knew he found her lack of excitement on that axis odd, perhaps unsatisfying. That was not a new experience for her; she’d always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging.

Although, her feelings (apathy? unenthusiastic willingness?) about the physical-intimacy part of the relationship she’s in suggest she might be as transactional about sexual relationships as she is about everything else. That this function of being together is worth it for whatever else she gets out of the relationship. Intellectual stimulation can be worth a lot for someone like that, but I’m sure it has come with genuine fondness for her to seek more.

Edited by Kyn
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16 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Jasnah’s self-admittedly demiromantic on the aro spectrum, only attracted to (or at least interested in heteroromantic relationships with) men she has an established respect for or connection with.

RoW ch. 99, emphasis mine:

Although, her feelings (apathy? unenthusiastic willingness?) about the physical-intimacy part of the relationship she’s in suggest she might be as transactional about sexual relationships as she is about everything else. That this function of being together is worth it for whatever else she gets out of the relationship. Intellectual stimulation can be worth a lot for someone like that, but I’m sure it has come with genuine fondness for her to seek more.

Brandon says she heteromantic. Being interested in people romantically doesn’t mean you’re interested in all people that way. Romantic attraction generally requires more than pants and/or a skirt. Either way, she’s certainly not aromantic.

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39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Either way, she’s certainly not aromantic.

So, I was agreeing with you but providing clarification. Because Jasnah is not at the “extreme” aro end of the spectrum, but she’s deinitely not showing signs of what most people think of as normative sexual appetite. Demiromantic has no bearing on orientation.

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1 minute ago, Kyn said:

So, I was agreeing with you but providing clarification. Because Jasnah is not at the “extreme” aro end of the spectrum, but she’s deinitely not showing signs of what most people think of as normative sexual appetite. Demiromantic has no bearing on orientation.

Ah, okay. I think I’ve been misunderstanding the term. I assumed demi = half/lesser, like it usually does. Thanks for the clarification!

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17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Unfortunately, Kelsier’s already burned his bridges with Jasnah...

But Shai and Bavadin didn't. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the Bavatars had created a "let's take down Hoid" organisation

On 06/02/2021 at 4:59 PM, Valigus said:

Kaladin likes him to roshar seems to be the only place he is forming positive relationships 

Don't forget Valour

10 hours ago, Ixthos said:

To clarify, I am not saying Jasnah is going to go after Hoid because he just up and left one day - we know from Hoid's interactions with Shai that he will betray people to possible death - or at least to situations he knows they can get out of but which might lead to death - in order to further his goals, which might well be noble goals. He has said he will let all of Roshar burn if he has to. I am not suggestiong Hoid leaves, cheats, insults the way she looks in a dress and that is why their relationship ends (though I imagine if any of his other lovers are still active they might consider what he has done to be any of the above). I'm suggesting that he does something that puts Roshar in danger, that he uses Jasnah and her affection for him to put those she cares about in danger, undermining their efforts. So then he becomes a danger, possible in possession of something they need, AND a betrayer.

Hoid betraying Shai saved the Rose empire. If Hoid betrayed Jasnah it would either save Roshar or the Cosmere and she knows it.

1 hour ago, Kyn said:

Jasnah’s self-admittedly demiromantic on the aro spectrum, only attracted to (or at least interested in heteroromantic relationships with) men she has an established respect for or connection with.

Jasnah's attracted to no one, and isn't 'only fall in love with people she has an established respect for or connection with' the norm?

13 minutes ago, Kyn said:

but she’s deinitely not showing signs of what most people think of as normative sexual appetite

Yes, because she's ace. Which has no bearing on whether she's aro or not.

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2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Hoid betraying Shai saved the Rose empire. If Hoid betrayed Jasnah it would either save Roshar or the Cosmere and she knows it.

I suspect saving the Rose Empire was a byproduct, and the Rose Empire itself may either be a force of good or a force of evil in the region with how it absorbed other nations - perhaps it falling would have caused great harm, true. However, if Hoid could save the Cosmere at the expense of Roshar, do you think Jasnah would do so? Also, consider, if she wanted to fighting to stop she should just join Odium and add her forces to his and the conflict would end - so clearly her goals aren't to ensure their is peace but rather the type of peace. Would you let someone destroy the Earth if they told you doing so would save the civilisations on three other planets, knowing doing so would kill everyone you love?

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59 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I suspect saving the Rose Empire was a byproduct, and the Rose Empire itself may either be a force of good or a force of evil in the region with how it absorbed other nations - perhaps it falling would have caused great harm, true. However, if Hoid could save the Cosmere at the expense of Roshar, do you think Jasnah would do so? Also, consider, if she wanted to fighting to stop she should just join Odium and add her forces to his and the conflict would end - so clearly her goals aren't to ensure their is peace but rather the type of peace. Would you let someone destroy the Earth if they told you doing so would save the civilisations on three other planets, knowing doing so would kill everyone you love?

Of course not. I just meant she won't go on an hate crusade against him like Shai

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5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Jasnah's attracted to no one, and isn't 'only fall in love with people she has an established respect for or connection with' the norm?

The first part would be why I had a parenthetical included, since it doesn’t look as if traditional attraction is involved. And I never mentioned falling in love. Pretty sure being demiromantic is vastly different from the easy crushes or falling hard for virtual strangers many people describe, but if you say so.

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes, because she's ace. Which has no bearing on whether she's aro or not.

You’re right, but I genuinely don’t know a term that limits to the non-sex emotional+physical intimacy aspects of the whole romantic relationship shebang. I shouldn’t have defaulted to an obviously-inaccurate one in my ignorance, sorry.

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

However, if Hoid could save the Cosmere at the expense of Roshar, do you think Jasnah would do so?

That is actually worth arguing. I can’t imagine Jasnah would want to sacrifice her family, even if she’d otherwise be willing to doom her planet to save the Cosmere. But…consider how calculating Jasnah is. Can we really agree she’d let several other planets die just to save the one that matters to her? Would that calculus change if she could get her family exempted from the sacrifice?

I have to wonder if there’s a tipping point, even if Hoid betrayed her, beyond which Jasnah would see the benefits as worth the costs of helping Hoid let her world burn in order to save something bigger (assuming that’s what he’s after).

Personally, I imagine that Jasnah – unlike Taravangian – would find a way to bargain for more. She’s probably good at finding the Third Option (to save [mostly] everybody, assuming she cared to), maybe good enough to even get Hoid to take it alongside her. With or without a relationship.

…Although, thinking about it, the relationship could very well be another leverage toward such an end. 

Edited by Kyn
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4 minutes ago, Kyn said:

The first part would be why I had a parenthetical included, since it doesn’t look as if traditional attraction is involved. And I never mentioned falling in love. Pretty sure being demiromantic is vastly different from the easy crushes or falling hard for virtual strangers many people describe, but if you say so.

I had misunderstood your parenthesis and understood the exact opposite.

I had always understood crushes and virtual strangers as just sexual attraction. Was I wrong?

Quote

You’re right, but I genuinely don’t know a term that limits to the non-sex emotional+physical intimacy aspects of the whole romantic relationship shebang. I shouldn’t have defaulted to an obviously-inaccurate one in my ignorance, sorry.

I think this is just normal ace+not aro, not having a sex drive doesn't mean it doesn't feel good. Though I too am far from an expert.

Quote

That is actually worth arguing. I can’t imagine Jasnah would want to sacrifice her family, even if she’d otherwise be willing to doom her planet to save the Cosmere. But…consider how calculating Jasnah is. Can we really agree she’d let several other planets die just to save the one that matters to her? Would that calculus change if she could get her family exempted from the sacrifice?

I have to wonder if there’s a tipping point, even if Hoid betrayed her, beyond which Jasnah would see the benefits as worth the costs of helping Hoid let her world burn in order to save something bigger (assuming that’s what he’s after).

Personally, I imagine that Jasnah – unlike Taravangian – would find a way to bargain for more. She’s probably good at finding the Third Option, maybe good enough to even get Hoid to take it alongside her. With or without a relationship.

…Although, thinking about it, the relationship could very well be another leverage toward such an end. 

I think Hoid's weird fortune power could easily make him the most utilitarian person in the Cosmere, and if there's a third option it's likely he'd be able to guess it. And honestly using the relationship as a leveraged against him would definitely fail, they've got less than a century to spend together and Hoid still have millennia to live.

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