Bands of Mourning vs other types of investiture

[zpo73]

Let's say Vin is wielding the Bands of Mourning. Can any non shard character in the cosmere defeat her?

[Bejarden]

Lord ruler if he was alive

also fullborn 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Weltall]

Yeah, pretty much. If you've got that level of power you're going to need someone with an equal degree of power to not get slaughtered. The usual counter of Nightblood isn't going to help because you'll be dead before you get a chance to draw it and Vin would almost certainly pass the 'Nightblood Test' so Vasher's favorite trick wouldn't work on Vin.

Maybe Pali with her Honorblade and ability to draw directly on Honor's Investiture since the Heralds have orders of magnitude more experience than almost anyone else and her specific powerset includes healing, illusions (which may or may not be helpful depending on how they interact with A-Bronze and A-Atium) and visions that might be useful as an atium counter depending on the realmatics of 'seeing the present'. Even then it would also depend on whether she's one of the better fighters among the Heralds (and my guess is she isn't) because she'd still need to land enough hits on Vin to get past F-Gold healing, when the latter has super-speed and doesn't need to get close to be dangerous. Also, there's a pretty good chance that Vin could simply Push/Pull the Honorblade right out of a Herald's grip since the Bands are an example of the ungodly levels of power that are implicitly needed to work through that kind of Investiture resistance, and once that's taken out of the equation the slaughter would be very quick. I discounted the other Heralds because I think you'd need powerful healing to deal with the Bands and Pali's set seemed more likely to be useful than Vedel's.

Other than that, I mean maybe Hoid could 'defeat' Vin by being nigh-unkillable and waiting until she's exhausted the Bands' storage while throwing harsh language her way.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Weltall

[Frustration]

An Elantrin with enoughtime.

[Aspiring Writer]

An Unmade. They technically can't be killed by her.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

An Unmade. They technically can't be killed by her.

A-Chromium could eventually do it,

and they could theoretically be stuffed into a Nicrosilmind

[Aspiring Writer]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A-Chromium could eventually do it,

and they could theoretically be stuffed into a Nicrosilmind

hmm, interesting.

[KSub]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

A-Chromium could eventually do it,

and they could theoretically be stuffed into a Nicrosilmind

I know we don't really know anything about nicrosil still but do people think it can steal investiture?

I just went through some chapter summaries for Bands and they are described as granting the power of allomancy of old. So it sounds like they are not that powerful. Yes they also have feruchemy and huge stores but the implementation of that power isn't exceptional in terms of what we the reader know.

So probably any fullborn with enough stored investiture, a Herald, or anyone of similar power could beat someone with the bands. I think it's probably going to come down to experience.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, KSub said:

I know we don't really know anything about nicrosil still but do people think it can steal investiture?

I just went through some chapter summaries for Bands and they are described as granting the power of allomancy of old. So it sounds like they are not that powerful. Yes they also have feruchemy and huge stores but the implementation of that power isn't exceptional in terms of what we the reader know.

So probably any fullborn with enough stored investiture, a Herald, or anyone of similar power could beat someone with the bands. I think it's probably going to come down to experience.

They store investiture,

simply form a connnection to the Unmade with F-duralumin and then shove it into the Nocrsilmind

[+Bzhydack]

59 minutes ago, KSub said:

I know we don't really know anything about nicrosil still but do people think it can steal investiture?

I just went through some chapter summaries for Bands and they are described as granting the power of allomancy of old. So it sounds like they are not that powerful. Yes they also have feruchemy and huge stores but the implementation of that power isn't exceptional in terms of what we the reader know.

So probably any fullborn with enough stored investiture, a Herald, or anyone of similar power could beat someone with the bands. I think it's probably going to come down to experience.

"Any Fullborn" - it were only two Fullborn in history. And fullborn is probably the most powerfull entity in Cosmere who isnt Shard.

"Allomancy of old" is so strong it can make allomancer fly only by pushing traces of minerals in rocks. Underground. It can controll whole cities by emotional pushing/pulling. Not even mention DUralumin, or time bubbles. And feruchemy. Bearer of Bands IS Fullborn, so is Compounder of every metal, ergo cannot run out of feruchemical powers as long as he has metals to burn (Marasi isnt Feruchemist and she didnt know how to compound, so she just uses atributes). And basicly infinite strengh, speed, health, mental speed, not even mentioned more divine atributes....

To kill someone with Bands, we will need someone with similar power. Maybe, MAYBE Ishar with Nightblood.

[KSub]

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

"Any Fullborn" - it were only two Fullborn in history. And fullborn is probably the most powerfull entity in Cosmere who isnt Shard.

"Allomancy of old" is so strong it can make allomancer fly only by pushing traces of minerals in rocks. Underground. It can controll whole cities by emotional pushing/pulling. Not even mention DUralumin, or time bubbles. And feruchemy. Bearer of Bands IS Fullborn, so is Compounder of every metal, ergo cannot run out of feruchemical powers as long as he has metals to burn (Marasi isnt Feruchemist and she didnt know how to compound, so she just uses atributes). And basicly infinite strengh, speed, health, mental speed, not even mentioned more divine atributes....

To kill someone with Bands, we will need someone with similar power. Maybe, MAYBE Ishar with Nightblood.

It's not infinite power. By the time Wax puts down the Bands they are mostly used up. 

[+Bzhydack]

5 minutes ago, KSub said:

It's not infinite power. By the time Wax puts down the Bands they are mostly used up. 

Because Marasi didnt know how to Compound, she simply learn Feruchemy few days earlier.

And for Compounding you need more than one metalmind for respective metal, and Wax didnt have them.

Wax himself told us they can fill Bands via Compounding later.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, KSub said:

So it sounds like they are not that powerful.

Wax was so powerful he could see and nearly Steelpush people's souls inside their bodies. 

[KSub]

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wax was so powerful he could see and nearly Steelpush people's souls inside their bodies. 

Maybe I need to do a reread of era2 before the fourth book comes out.

[StanLemon]

On 2/6/2021 at 8:15 AM, KSub said:

It's not infinite power. By the time Wax puts down the Bands they are mostly used up. 

This is the main weakness of the Bands. Effectively it's 16(?) Metalminds that together are the size of an average Feruchemist's Metalmind. Meaning they can pack a whole lot of power into a small space but the Bands aren't as full as the proper Metalminds of a Fullborn would be

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

This is the main weakness of the Bands. Effectively it's 16(?) Metalminds that together are the size of an average Feruchemist's Metalmind. Meaning they can pack a whole lot of power into a small space but the Bands aren't as full as the proper Metalminds of a Fullborn would be

Yes, but you can use other metalsminds while using the bands. The fact bands can store investiture doesn't matter, it's that it grants you the ability to.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[mathiau]

Kelsier

Marsh, because it's obvious he added double-nicrosil+double-aluminium to his powers to effectively remove the mind control issue

Wax, because he's a fullborn now

Quote

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

Ishar with the Dawnshard Known to bind mortal and voidish creatures alike

Suzeborn

In Shadesmare: Jashna or Battar

These are Dawnshard spoilers but the spoiler season end tomorrow so I guess behind a spoiler box it's ok

Spoiler

A Sleepless

Nale or Chana with the Change Dawnshard

On 06/02/2021 at 11:06 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wax was so powerful he could see and nearly Steelpush people's souls inside their bodies. 

He was compounding, his powers where far stronger than old allomancy, which was more at the Elend level

On 08/02/2021 at 3:27 AM, StanLemon said:

This is the main weakness of the Bands. Effectively it's 16(?) Metalminds that together are the size of an average Feruchemist's Metalmind. Meaning they can pack a whole lot of power into a small space but the Bands aren't as full as the proper Metalminds of a Fullborn would be

Then just compound a bit.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Kelsier

Marsh, because it's obvious he added double-nicrosil+double-aluminium to his powers to effectively remove the mind control issue

Wax, because he's a fullborn now

Ishar with the Dawnshard Known to bind mortal and voidish creatures alike

Suzeborn

In Shadesmare: Jashna or Battar

These are Dawnshard spoilers but the spoiler season end tomorrow so I guess behind a spoiler box it's ok

  Reveal hidden contents

A Sleepless

Nale or Chana with the Change Dawnshard

He was compounding, his powers where far stronger than old allomancy, which was more at the Elend level

Then just compound a bit.

From what we can tell Wax returned the Investiture to the bands. Something about the way Medallion tech works seems to return the Investiture automatically after use. The question is how?

[mathiau]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

From what we can tell Wax returned the Investiture to the bands. Something about the way Medallion tech works seems to return the Investiture automatically after use. The question is how?

I don't remember him giving the Investiture back and he mentioned the Bands was far less full than before

[Kingsdaughter613]

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember him giving the Investiture back and he mentioned the Bands was far less full than before

The Nicrosil part goes back. He doesn’t retain the allomsntic or Feruchemical abilities. The attribute stores are gone though. That’s why Marasi no longer can tap speed or iron. And why the Southerners need to swap out metal minds. Something automatically is causing the ability to utilize those abilities to return to the Nicrosil.

[cometaryorbit]

With Vin's instinctive/intuitive awesomeness at Allomancy plus the raw power of the Bands, not much could.

TLR had basically the same powers* and much more experience, so he could, assuming his overconfidence didn't lead to him being killed before he realized what was going on.

One of the more combative Heralds in their early days, with direct Investiture-feed from Honor (IE basically unlimited), maybe. I'm not really sure what their limits were - the battle Surges (Gravitation, Division, etc.) with unlimited Stormlight is a pretty terrifying concept. A Honorblade is essentially a Splinter - it might be Invested enough that even Bands-strength Pushes would have trouble.

OTOH, their Stormlight healing was imperfect; a thunderclast could kill them with a blow to the head per the Prelude - thunderclasts are likely hundreds of times human strength, but compounded Pewter can do that.

Nightblood in the hands of a Knight Radiant with huge Stormlight supplies (thus really good healing), possibly.

*Although I'm not sure TLR was quite on par power-wise, he wasn't exuding mist when he did major Allomancy things.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

OTOH, their Stormlight healing was imperfect; a thunderclast could kill them with a blow to the head per the Prelude - thunderclasts are likely hundreds of times human strength, but compounded Pewter can do that.

Not only that but they were 72 stories tall.

Made of stone.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 2/5/2021 at 0:52 PM, zpo73 said:

Let's say Vin is wielding the Bands of Mourning. Can any non shard character in the cosmere defeat her?

Kelsier, assuming he has all the powers necessary for him to have made the Bands in the first place. He has 350 odd years of experience with those powers and he’s more cunning than Vin. And experience and cunning are the two things that tend to matter with Allomancy.

Kelsier’s powers (we assume) are native to him. He’s also used to instinctive compounding of attributes. Vin isn’t, so she’ll run out long before he does.

After Kelsier, I’d guess Chana and Pailiah, provided they have their honorblades. With the surge of Friction they’d have the possibility of moving fast enough to counter Steelspeed. (Otherwise anyone fighting a Fullborn dies immediately.) The other heralds are amazing fighters, but they can’t move fast enough.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

After Kelsier, I’d guess Chana and Pailiah, provided they have their honorblades. With the surge of Friction they’d have the possibility of moving fast enough to counter Steelspeed. (Otherwise anyone fighting a Fullborn dies immediately.) The other heralds are amazing fighters, but they can’t move fast enough.

I don't know Taln was known for picking unwinable battles, and winning them, and we have an unwinable battle...

[StanLemon]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't know Taln was known for picking unwinable battles, and winning them, and we have an unwinable battle...

If any Herald could beat a Fullborn it would probably be him.