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Odium's forces use the corrupted rhythms like emotional allomancy


mdross81

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So, like the tile says, at various times in SA, I'm pretty sure that Odium's forces are able to use the corrupted rhythms in a manner that is similar to emotional allomancy. They can't completely reprogram the way someone thinks, but they seem to be able to give a nudge in the desired direction. In particular, I think we see Ulim, Venli, and possibly a couple of stormspren use rhythms/vibration to manipulate others' emotions.

I started down this line of thinking when I recently reread this Gavilar line from the OB prologue (Eshonai's POV):

Quote

“I seek an end to something that we never finished. My people were Radiant once, and your people – the parshmen – were vibrant.

Given the juxtaposition of the words radiant and vibrant, and all of the stuff we learn about rhythms (i.e. vibrations) in RoW, I started to wonder if maybe the singers had at one point used vibrations in some kind of magical way. At the outset, I'll concede that the simplest explanation for Gavilar's saying that the singers are not longe "vibrant" is that he's just talking about the ones in slaveform.

But indulge me. Looking back through WoR, OB, and RoW, I found a number of times where it seems pretty clear that either Ulim or Venli (or Ulim through Venli) use rhythms/vibrations to manipulate the emotions of others. Here's a rundown in chronological order.

RoW Chapter 73

Quote

Venli’s confidence wavered. She looked out toward the Shattered Plains, where their warforms trained on a nearby plateau. She’d nudged them toward that, following Ulim’s suggestions. He knew a lot about manipulating people; with his help she could get the others to do pretty much anything.

A part of her thought she should concerned about that. But when she tried to think along those lines, her mind grew fuzzy. And she ended up circling back to whatever she’d been thinking about before.

“Eshonai guesses that the humans are bluffing about how many cities they have,” she said. “But if they have dozens like they told us, then our numbers would be roughly equal. If we can get all the families to listen to us.”

Roughly equal? Ulim said, then started laughing. An outrageous sound, uproarious. It made her gemheart vibrate. You and them? Even? Oh, you blessed little idiot.

Venli felt herself attune Agony. She hated the way he made her feel sometimes. He’d whisper about how great she was, but then they’d get deep into a conversation and he’d speak more freely. More derogatorily.

Venli pushed off from the wall and began walking through the city. Something was wrong about Ulim. About her. About the way she thought now …

You have no idea the power that awaits you, Venli, Ulim said to the Rhythm of Craving.

That's three times in relatively short order where we see this happen. Her mind growing fuzzy and circling back when she expresses concern about how manipulative Ulim is. Then Ulim's mocking laughter makes her gemheart vibrate. Note how Venli doesn't say that she "attuned" Agony, rather she felt herself attune it, almost like it wasn't her choice, but happened as a result of the ridiculing laughter. And lastly, she again starts to think that something is fishy with Ulim and he immediately starts with the obsequious puffery, accompanied by a rhythm, to cut off that line of thinking.

RoW Chapter 77

Quote

“We’re not here to start a war, Ulim. I merely want to get my people ready to face one, should the humans try to destroy us!”

Ulim crackled with lightning, then moved up her arm, toward her gemheart. She hesitated to let him in. He worked in strange ways, not according to the rules. He could move in and out of her without a highstorm to facilitate the transformation.

He began to vibrate with energy through her. You were so clever, Venli, tricking Nale. This is going to work. You and me. This bond.

“But … a war?”

I don’t care why Nale thought we should attack the king, Ulim said. It has given me a seed of an idea. It’s not his plan, but your plan we’re following. We came here to make your people see how dangerous the humans are. But they are foolish, and you are wise. You can see how much of a threat they are. You need to show them.

“Yes,” Venli said. That was her plan.

Ulim slipped into her gemheart.

The humans are planning to betray you, Ulim said. A Herald confirmed it. We must strike at them first.

“And in so doing, make our people desperate,” Venli said. “When the humans retaliate, it will threaten our destruction. Yes … Then I could persuade the listeners they need forms of power. They must accept our help, or be annihilated.”

Exactly.

“A war would … likely mean the deaths of thousands,” Venli said, attuning Anxiety. The rhythm felt small and weak. Distant. “On both sides.”

Your people will be restored to their true place as rulers of this entire land, Ulim said. Yes, blood will spill first. But in the end you will rule, Venli. Can you pay this small price now, for untold glories in the future?

If it meant being strong enough to never again be weak? Never again feeling as small as she had today?

“Yes,” she said, attuning Destruction. “What do we do?”

Here we see Ulim vibrate energy through Venli while again peddling lies to get Venli on board with the plan to assassinate Gavilar.

WoR Interlude 11

Quote

“Our people must take that form, Eshonai,” Venli said. “It is inevitable.”

Eshonai found herself attuning the new version of Amusement … Ridicule it was. She turned to her sister. “You knew, didn’t you? You knew exactly what his form would do to me. You knew this before you took the form yourself.”

“I … Yes.”

Eshonai grabbed her sister by the front of her robe, then yanked her forward, holding her tightly. With Shardplate it was easy, though Venli resisted more than she should have been able to, and a small spark of red lightning ran across the woman’s arms and face. Eshonai was not accustomed to such strength from her scholar of a sister.

“You could have destroyed us,” Eshonai said. “What if this form had done something terrible?”

Screaming. In her head. Venli smiled.

“How did you discover this?” Eshonai asked. “It didn’t come from the songs. There is more.”

Venli did not speak. She met Eshonai’s eyes and hummed to Confidence. “We must make certain the Five agree to this plan,” she said. “If we are to survive, and if we are to defeat the humans, we must be in this form – all of us. We must summon that storm. It has been … waiting, Eshonai. Waiting and building.”

“I will see to it,” Eshonai said, dropping Venli. “You can gather enough spren for us to transform all of our people?”

“Do not question me,” Eshonai said. “I control this city, not you.”

Venli quieted, though her humming to Spite continued. She would attempt to seize control from Eshonai. It was an uncomfortable realization, as was the realization of how deeply Eshonai herself wanted to be in control. That didn’t feel like her. Not at all.

None of this feels like me. I …

The new rhythms’ beats surged in her mind. She turned from such thoughts as a group of soldiers approached, towing a shouting figure.

Here, just before the first highlighted passage, Eshonai is really angry about Venli not telling her that she knew stormform would change her. She's digging on on trying to figure out how Venli found out about stormform. She does not seem inclined to just let this go. But then Venli meets Eshonai's eyes, and hums to confidence while again repeating that they have to take this step, and Eshonai is just like, okay! and then proceeds to immediately do an endrun around the five and orders her stormform officers to round up any dissenters to be killed.

In the second highlighted passage, Eshonai finally starts to have some doubts about what she's doing, and it seems like the stormform spren in her gemheart, mindless though it might be, senses her wavering and reacts, ramping up the new corrupted rhythms to push back.

WoR Interlude 13

Quote

Venli looked to her, stopping on the rock field. “We need no more training. We should act, right now, to bring a highstorm.

“We will do it when the humans near,” Eshonai said.

“Why? Let us do it tonight?”

“Foolishness,” Eshonai said. “This is a tool to use in battle. If we produce and unexpected storm now, the Alethi won’t come, and we won’t win this war. We must wait.”

Venli seemed thoughtful. Finally, she smiled, then nodded.

“What do you know that you aren’t telling me?” Eshonai demanded, taking her sister by the shoulder.

Venli smiled more broadly. “I’m simply persuaded. We must wait. The storm will blow the wrong way, after all. Or is it all other storms that have blown the wrong way, and this one will be the first to blow the right way?”

The wrong way? “How do you know? About the direction?”

“The songs.”

The songs. But … they said nothing about …

Something deep within Eshonai nudged her to move on.

I'm not entirely sure what happens in the first part of this scene where Venli just smiles and goes along with Eshonai's position that they should wait. I imagine Ulim is saying something to her in her mind. Maybe pointing out that Eshonai is now the one manipulating her? Maybe congratulating Venli on making Eshonai think that the idea to wait was her own? I'm not sure, but there's something weird there. And then we get another instance of Eshonai poking into how Venli knows the things she knows and then something deep inside nudges her to move on.

OB Interlude 3

Quote

Venli set her jaw, humming to the Rhythm of Fury. Lines of power rippled up her arms. “Why should I continue to bey our orders, spren? You should obey me.”

The spren ignored her, which further stoked her anger. Demid, however, placed his hand on her shoulder and squeezed, humming to the Rhythm of Satisfaction. “Come, look with me this way.”

She curtailed her humming and turned south, joining Demid, picking her way through debris.

“Then why haven’t we been told anything? Our gods have returned, yet we’ve barely seen them. We sacrificed greatly for these forms, and to create the glorious true storm. We … we lost how many?

Sometimes she thought about that, in strange moments when the new rhythms seemed to retreat. All of her work, meeting with Ulim in secret, guiding her people toward stormform. It had been about saving her people, hadn’t it? Yet of the tens of thousands of listeners who had fought to summon the storm, only a fraction remained.

Demid and she had been scholars. Yet even scholars had gone to battle. She felt at the wound on her face.

“Our sacrifice was worthwhile,” Demid told her to the Rhythm of Derision. “Yes, we have lost many, but humans sought our extinction. At least  this way some of our people survived, and now we have great power!”

He was right.

I'm not entirely sure that in these two instances Demid is doing something similar to the other examples above. But Venli does seem rather agitated both times, yet quickly capitulates.

I'll note that it's at the end of this Interlude when Timbre starts following Venli. Shortly thereafter she starts to be able to hear the old rhythms again, and as far as I can tell doesn't fall victim to this kind of emotional manipulation ever again.

Bonus theory: all of this got me thinking that perhaps this is similar to what the ancient singers did, but not just with emotions. What if, rather than bonding with spren, the ancient singers were able to use the rhythms to communicate with the spren and ask them to manipulate the surges? The spren got some of those juicy thoughts and emotions they like so much through the rhythms, and got to manipulate things in the physical realm; the singers got to do cool magic that helped them out. Then the humans come along, all shiny and new, and the spren are like, whoa, now we can actually pass through into the physical realm more. And the singers are like WTF spren? ok, I guess we'll give this Odium guy a try.

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3 hours ago, mathiau said:

On one hand Odium's Rhythms are not corrupted, they're just Odium's Rhythms.

Fair point. I mean Venli expressly thinks of the new rhythms as corrupted versions of the old rhythms at several points. But that may be a misinterpretation. Some of Odium’s rhythms do seem to be angrier/more violent versions of the older rhythms of Roshar. I guess that could be more like how different languages within a family of languages have slightly different words for the same thing.

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11 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Fair point. I mean Venli expressly thinks of the new rhythms as corrupted versions of the old rhythms at several points. But that may be a misinterpretation. Some of Odium’s rhythms do seem to be angrier/more violent versions of the older rhythms of Roshar. I guess that could be more like how different languages within a family of languages have slightly different words for the same thing.

After reflection, the new Rhythms are essentially the old ones but with the Honout/Cultivation core replaced by Odium's one, right? It could actually be a form of corruption. And it would finally give some sense as to why Regals have red eyes while Renarin and Lift don't when using the wrong light to power their abilities.

Are El's eyes red?

Edited by mathiau
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6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

After reflection, the new Rhythms are essentially the old ones but with the Honout/Cultivation core replaced by Odium's one, right? It could actually be a form of corruption. And it would finally give some sense as to why Regals have red eyes while Renarin and Lift don't when using the wrong light to power their abilities.

Now that you mention Renarin, I wonder if part of his power to show idealized versions of people (I think we see him do this with both Adolin and Moash) is another form of emotional manipulation. One that he can do because of his enlightened (your welcome Sja-Anat) mistspren. 

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I always took the new rhythms to be more intense versions of the docile rhythms the Listeners had chosen to remember. Derision instead of contradiction.  But I could definitely see an argument for odium influencing the rhythms.

11 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Now that you mention Renarin, I wonder if part of his power to show idealized versions of people (I think we see him do this with both Adolin and Moash) is another form of emotional manipulation. One that he can do because of his enlightened (your welcome Sja-Anat) mistspren. 

This is like malatium, Renarin is seeing who the person could be . Not so much emotional allomancy but Renarin uses it to that end. At least with Moash. I don't remember the scene with Adolin.

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35 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Now that you mention Renarin, I wonder if part of his power to show idealized versions of people (I think we see him do this with both Adolin and Moash) is another form of emotional manipulation. One that he can do because of his enlightened (your welcome Sja-Anat) mistspren. 

Seeing idealized version of oneself is more of a temporal effect while emotional manipulation would be more a cognitive one, honestly it really remind me of A-Gold and A-Malatium shadows. And yes he does that to both Moash and Adolin, by the way in the case of Adolin it was a side effect of progression and not illumination. It could be intended as manipulation too but the Progression one really sounds like "let's make you what you can be" in a Cultivation/Endowment way more than in a manipulative way.

19 minutes ago, KSub said:

This is like malatium, Renarin is seeing who the person could be . Not so much emotional allomancy but Renarin uses it to that end. At least with Moash. I don't remember the scene with Adolin.

 

It's the scene Renarin show he can summon Glys as a blade, near the end he uses Regrowth to heal Adolin's wrist and for a time Adolin feels like he can see a perfected version of himself.

Also, I see neither of your quote include my edit about El, is it because you didn't see it or because you don't know?

Edited by mathiau
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On 2/8/2021 at 8:31 AM, mdross81 said:

Fair point. I mean Venli expressly thinks of the new rhythms as corrupted versions of the old rhythms at several points. But that may be a misinterpretation. Some of Odium’s rhythms do seem to be angrier/more violent versions of the older rhythms of Roshar.

Agreed.  Rather than "manipulate" or "corrupt", the effect might be better described as "amplify".  I found this in RoW ch. 31 (Raboniel, to Venli):

Quote

...you contain a small amount of Voidlight in your gemheart.  You can't use it actively, of course, but you might have felt it enflaming your emotions.

Certainly, support for the idea that the characters see Voidlight as capable of increasing the emotions of those infused with it.

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2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

 I found this in RoW ch. 31 (Raboniel, to Venli):

Wait, so would that mean that if she inhaled Stormlight and got someone to harmonize the song of War with her, she could change that little bit of Voidlight into Warlight forever? Just hanging out inside her Gemheart doing whatever Warlight does, mentally speaking?

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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, so would that mean that if she inhaled Stormlight and got someone to harmonize the song of War with her, she could change that little bit of Voidlight into Warlight forever? Just hanging out inside her Gemheart doing whatever Warlight does, mentally speaking?

Considering that making Warlight requires a vacuum, probably not. 

Edit: no it doesn't, mixing things up. 

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Did it? I thought you needed that to invert Light into Anti-Light.

facepalms

Yep, I'm an idiot.

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, so would that mean that if she inhaled Stormlight and got someone to harmonize the song of War with her, she could change that little bit of Voidlight into Warlight forever? Just hanging out inside her Gemheart doing whatever Warlight does, mentally speaking?

In that case, yeah, that could be possible, though I think you'd have to get the Stormlight into the gemheart first (and who knows what effect removing the Voidlight might have, if you go that route instead? it might be fine, it might cause problems, I'm not sure). 

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

facepalms

Yep, I'm an idiot.

In that case, yeah, that could be possible, though I think you'd have to get the Stormlight into the gemheart first (and who knows what effect removing the Voidlight might have, if you go that route instead? it might be fine, it might cause problems, I'm not sure). 

I think getting Stormlight into the gemstone might be pretty easy, actually. Timbre could probably lend a helping hand in that regard.

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I forget, can you put Stormlight into a gem occupied by Voidlight with the tone, or do you have to merge it to Warlight first?

I don't quite recall either, though my gut feeling is that you have to harmonize the tones after drawing one Light out of a gemstone and trying to put it into the one that you want to fill with Warlight. Whether or not that gemstone has to be empty first, I can't remember.

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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I don't quite recall either, though my gut feeling is that you have to harmonize the tones after drawing one Light out of a gemstone and trying to put it into the one that you want to fill with Warlight. Whether or not that gemstone has to be empty first, I can't remember.

A couple of points here.

First, it seems that when Venli breathes in Stormlight it doesn’t go into her gemheart.  RoW 67:

Quote

Stormlight didn’t work like Voidlight did. Rather than going into her gemheart, it infused her entire body. She could feel it raging—an odd feeling more than an unpleasant one.

And to answer @LewsTherinTelescope’s question, here is what happens when Navani tries to put Stormlight in a gem partially full of Voidlight, from RoW 69:

Quote

She hoped to be able to refill the Voidlight sphere with Stormlight, now that a portion of the Voidlight had been removed. She hit the tuning fork, started the Stormlight streaming out of its diamond, then tried to get it to go into the Voidlight diamond by making it vibrate to the fork’s tone. Unfortunately, when she touched the tuning fork to the Voidlight diamond, it immediately stopped vibrating and the tone died.

The only way they were able to combine them into Warlight was by sending individual streams out of two separate gems, then singing the Rhythm of War with Raboniel while then touching an empty gemstone. Row 76:

Quote

No, Navani thought, taking a breath then continuing to sing. No, we can’t fight. She took Raboniel’s hand, singing the tone, but softer. Raboniel quieted as well. Holding the Fused’s hand, Navani felt as if she were reaching for something. Her tone changed slightly. Raboniel responded, their two tones moving toward one another, step by step, until … Harmony. The rhythms snapped into alignment, a burst of chaotic notes from Raboniel—bounded by a regular, orderly pulse from Navani. Heartbeats. Drumbeats. Signals. Together. Navani reached over and placed their clasped hands on the empty gemstone at the center of the experiment, holding them there as they sang for an extended moment in concert. In tandem, a pure harmony where neither took control. The two of them looked at each other, then fell silent. Carefully, they removed their hands to reveal a diamond glowing a vibrant black-blue. An impossible color.

So I think with the Voidlight seemingly locked into Venli’s gemheart, there’s no way for her to combine it with Stormlight. 

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3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

A couple of points here.

First, it seems that when Venli breathes in Stormlight it doesn’t go into her gemheart.  RoW 67:

That's fair, it's not like the lack of a gemheart stops humans from inhaling it.

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

And to answer @LewsTherinTelescope’s question, here is what happens when Navani tries to put Stormlight in a gem partially full of Voidlight, from RoW 69:

Aha. This is why Venli's gemheart doesn't fill with Stormlight.

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

The only way they were able to combine them into Warlight was by sending individual streams out of two separate gems, then singing the Rhythm of War with Raboniel while then touching an empty gemstone. Row 76:

Drat. Wait! Venli might be able to draw out the Voidlight and harmonize it in another gemstone, then use the tones to draw it back into her now Voidlight-free gemheart.

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

So I think with the Voidlight seemingly locked into Venli’s gemheart, there’s no way for her to combine it with Stormlight. 

This is the key issue. Is it actually "stuck" in there, or could she pull it out with Odium's Tone and then replace it with Warlight after?

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49 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That's fair, it's not like the lack of a gemheart stops humans from inhaling it.

Have we seen any humans do this? I’m not necessarily doubting you. I just don’t remember seeing this happen.

One thought I had for how this might work, if it were the case that humans can’t breathe in Voidlight, would be that an Enlightened spren like Glys could hold the Voidlight, allowing Renarin to use it. I’m thinking here of how Pattern can hold onto Stormlight in the form of illusions created by Shallan.

49 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Drat. Wait! Venli might be able to draw out the Voidlight and harmonize it in another gemstone, then use the tones to draw it back into her now Voidlight-free gemheart

So, I think this be a little like Breath and the Returned. They can take on however much additional breath but not give up their Divine breath without it killing them. I think that there’s a small amount that she always has by virtue of the voidspren in her gemheart, without which I’m not sure she would have a form. Here’s something from RoW 67:

Quote

Timbre’s pulsed reply was pragmatic. Indeed, they used Voidlight every day—a little of it, stored in their gemheart—to power Venli’s translation abilities. She wasn’t certain if her ability to use Voidlight for Radiant powers came from the fact that she was Regal, or if any singer who managed a bond would be able to do the same. Today, she drew the Voidlight in like Stormlight, and it infused her gemheart fully.

This was something talked about in the most recent Shardcast. The idea that when used internally, Fused/Regals can seemingly use Voidlight indefinitely without it running out. But to do external things with it requires additional Voidlight. (Which I think raises interesting questions about Lezian)

Edited by mdross81
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52 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

And to answer @LewsTherinTelescope’s question, here is what happens when Navani tries to put Stormlight in a gem partially full of Voidlight, from RoW 69:

Ah, thanks!

47 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Venli might be able to draw out the Voidlight and harmonize it in another gemstone, then use the tones to draw it back into her now Voidlight-free gemheart.

The main question for me with this is: would taking the Voidlight out cause any damage? Just shut off the abilities until she takes more in? Mess with the spren? Etc. 

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10 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The main question for me with this is: would taking the Voidlight out cause any damage? Just shut off the abilities until she takes more in? Mess with the spren? Etc. 

To your point and @Halyo_Alex’s, it does seem like between Venli and Timbre they ought to be able to sing the tones/rhythms and harmonize to create Warlight just by drawing out light stored in gems. There’s no reason the Voidlight would have to come from Venli’s gemheart (although as a practical matter I suppose she may have a difficult time getting access to Voidlight gems after the events of RoW). 

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  • 9 months later...
On 2/4/2021 at 6:46 PM, mdross81 said:

So, like the tile says, at various times in SA, I'm pretty sure that Odium's forces are able to use the corrupted rhythms in a manner that is similar to emotional allomancy. They can't completely reprogram the way someone thinks, but they seem to be able to give a nudge in the desired direction. In particular, I think we see Ulim, Venli, and possibly a couple of stormspren use rhythms/vibration to manipulate others' emotions.

I started down this line of thinking when I recently reread this Gavilar line from the OB prologue (Eshonai's POV):

Given the juxtaposition of the words radiant and vibrant, and all of the stuff we learn about rhythms (i.e. vibrations) in RoW, I started to wonder if maybe the singers had at one point used vibrations in some kind of magical way. At the outset, I'll concede that the simplest explanation for Gavilar's saying that the singers are not longe "vibrant" is that he's just talking about the ones in slaveform.

But indulge me. Looking back through WoR, OB, and RoW, I found a number of times where it seems pretty clear that either Ulim or Venli (or Ulim through Venli) use rhythms/vibrations to manipulate the emotions of others. Here's a rundown in chronological order.

RoW Chapter 73

That's three times in relatively short order where we see this happen. Her mind growing fuzzy and circling back when she expresses concern about how manipulative Ulim is. Then Ulim's mocking laughter makes her gemheart vibrate. Note how Venli doesn't say that she "attuned" Agony, rather she felt herself attune it, almost like it wasn't her choice, but happened as a result of the ridiculing laughter. And lastly, she again starts to think that something is fishy with Ulim and he immediately starts with the obsequious puffery, accompanied by a rhythm, to cut off that line of thinking.

RoW Chapter 77

Here we see Ulim vibrate energy through Venli while again peddling lies to get Venli on board with the plan to assassinate Gavilar.

WoR Interlude 11

Here, just before the first highlighted passage, Eshonai is really angry about Venli not telling her that she knew stormform would change her. She's digging on on trying to figure out how Venli found out about stormform. She does not seem inclined to just let this go. But then Venli meets Eshonai's eyes, and hums to confidence while again repeating that they have to take this step, and Eshonai is just like, okay! and then proceeds to immediately do an endrun around the five and orders her stormform officers to round up any dissenters to be killed.

In the second highlighted passage, Eshonai finally starts to have some doubts about what she's doing, and it seems like the stormform spren in her gemheart, mindless though it might be, senses her wavering and reacts, ramping up the new corrupted rhythms to push back.

WoR Interlude 13

I'm not entirely sure what happens in the first part of this scene where Venli just smiles and goes along with Eshonai's position that they should wait. I imagine Ulim is saying something to her in her mind. Maybe pointing out that Eshonai is now the one manipulating her? Maybe congratulating Venli on making Eshonai think that the idea to wait was her own? I'm not sure, but there's something weird there. And then we get another instance of Eshonai poking into how Venli knows the things she knows and then something deep inside nudges her to move on.

OB Interlude 3

I'm not entirely sure that in these two instances Demid is doing something similar to the other examples above. But Venli does seem rather agitated both times, yet quickly capitulates.

I'll note that it's at the end of this Interlude when Timbre starts following Venli. Shortly thereafter she starts to be able to hear the old rhythms again, and as far as I can tell doesn't fall victim to this kind of emotional manipulation ever again.

Bonus theory: all of this got me thinking that perhaps this is similar to what the ancient singers did, but not just with emotions. What if, rather than bonding with spren, the ancient singers were able to use the rhythms to communicate with the spren and ask them to manipulate the surges? The spren got some of those juicy thoughts and emotions they like so much through the rhythms, and got to manipulate things in the physical realm; the singers got to do cool magic that helped them out. Then the humans come along, all shiny and new, and the spren are like, whoa, now we can actually pass through into the physical realm more. And the singers are like WTF spren? ok, I guess we'll give this Odium guy a try.

 I believe what we're seeing is the void binding surge of search of transformation.   We know that the unmade void bind And they demonstrate the ability to change one's  Emotions and/or desires, Ulim   Is a Spren of redemption,  And will you see him using some form of transportation. I'll betHe is the void equivalent to an ink Spren with a second void of transformation.  I really love the last theory about the rhythms and pre human surge binding. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Honestly, all Odium's people that we have seen, are corrupted. What single thing that fights for him that is just his power alone? He didn't create the Singer's, Spren, Surges, and my guess, probably not even the Unmade.

 

The only form of his magic that he didn't corrupt, is his metal I believe. Am I missing anything else?

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