Hoid the Drifter

The 4 dawnshards

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According to the law of 16, there are 16 shards. I noticed that there are 4 dawnshards. Is this because the are the root of all the shards, and 4 is square root of 16?

Also, who and what are the other ones?

Spoiler

kelsier=survive?

 

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There's a theory (that I kind of like) that the Dawnshards were like magnets, stretching Adonalsium in four directions to allow for the Shattering, which shaped the Shards into being influenced by the Dawnshards, so each Dawnshard's Intent has 4 Shards that line up with it, more or less. The Dawnshards in this theory were Change, Create, Destroy, and one as the opposite of Change that I think was put down as either Stasis or Still. 
I'm very partial to that explanation, because it's neat.

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People theorize that Unity is a Dawnshard, the source of the warm light Dalinar felt

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On 2/4/2021 at 11:00 AM, Honorless said:

People theorize that Unity is a Dawnshard, the source of the warm light Dalinar felt

I've seen that. I'm less sure that Unity is a DS because I think the "unity" idea seems encapsulated by the bondsmith purpose, but I do think there's something to the warm light thing. It's come up multiple times for a reason, I'm sure. a reason we probably won't learn about until book 9 or something. lol

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I think that the 4 Dawnshards are Change, Survive, Unite, and Inspire.

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yeah, i'm pretty sure of survive, and change is fact, but why do you think unite? You think dalinar's a dawnshard? also, inspire? where'd you get that, @Chinkoln?

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15 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

yeah, i'm pretty sure of survive, and change is fact, but why do you think unite? You think dalinar's a dawnshard? also, inspire? where'd you get that, @Chinkoln?

Someone made a chart of all the shards, dawnshards, internal, external, mental, and temporal in the Cosmere

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4 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

Someone made a chart of all the shards, dawnshards, internal, external, mental, and temporal in the Cosmere

If it includes Inspire it’s probably mine. Although I’ve since changed the word to Aspire, which fits what I intended better. The chart also included Push/Pull and Physical/Spiritual. Is that the one you were thinking of?

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38 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If it includes Inspire it’s probably mine. Although I’ve since changed the word to Aspire, which fits what I intended better. The chart also included Push/Pull and Physical/Spiritual. Is that the one you were thinking of?

Ya, it was yours. Because you had shown it to me in a private PM I didn’t know if you wanted it to be broadcasted to the world.

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28 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Ya, it was yours. Because you had shown it to me in a private PM I didn’t know if you wanted it to be broadcasted to the world.

Oh, thanks! Yeah, it’s fine. I think I PMed it because I wasn’t sure if I could show it or not.

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On 2/4/2021 at 7:26 AM, Hoid the Drifter said:

According to the law of 16, there are 16 shards. I noticed that there are 4 dawnshards. Is this because the are the root of all the shards, and 4 is square root of 16?

Also, who and what are the other ones?

  Reveal hidden contents

kelsier=survive?

 

Silly Hoid, Dawnshards aren't real, Adonalsium made them up as part of a money-making scheme which was also a monkey-making scheme.  I know this 'cause I'm smart and stuff.

 

It's hilarious how you trust the memories you store in that coconut-sized head of yours and even more hilarious how you trust the memories you write outside of that coconut-shaped head of yours, and most hilarious of all is the fact that anybody trusts any of the words that come from within your coconut-brittle skull.

Edited by Aliroz-The-Confused
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On 2/4/2021 at 8:26 AM, Hoid the Drifter said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

kelsier=survive?

 

I'm not sure Kelsier himself was a dawn shard, the shard if supposed to superchargeany invested art, I think we would know if his powers were enhanced. It IS possible he was affected by the shard though. And it is possible the dawnshard was connected to the shard preservation. Kelsier had something that whispered to him in the pits that told him to "Survive", and when Elend was just about to give up preservation was able to use the last of his conciousness to keep going (or as some might call it "survive"). lastly when an allomancer burns lerasium their powers are greatly enhanced. So that is the command and the power both. 

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4 minutes ago, Lesser spren said:

I'm not sure Kelsier himself was a dawn shard, the shard if supposed to superchargeany invested art, I think we would know if his powers were enhanced. It IS possible he was affected by the shard though. And it is possible the dawnshard was connected to the shard preservation. Kelsier had something that whispered to him in the pits that told him to "Survive", and when Elend was just about to give up preservation was able to use the last of his conciousness to keep going (or as some might call it "survive"). lastly when an allomancer burns lerasium their powers are greatly enhanced. So that is the command and the power both. 

The last thing Leras did was point to the Northeast. Cross this with the other time he tried to tell Elend to go there, and you end up in the lower right of the Terris mountains. Maybe there was a Dawnshard hidden there? And Leras did mention a weapon to Kelsier...

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On 2/15/2021 at 7:55 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Silly Hoid, Dawnshards aren't real, Adonalsium made them up as part of a money-making scheme which was also a monkey-making scheme.  I know this 'cause I'm smart and stuff.

 

It's hilarious how you trust the memories you store in that coconut-sized head of yours and even more hilarious how you trust the memories you write outside of that coconut-shaped head of yours, and most hilarious of all is the fact that anybody trusts any of the words that come from within your coconut-brittle skull.

you are asking for me to get jasnah to soulcast you into bacon. (I think soulcast bacon is considered vegetarian.)

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45 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

you are asking for me to get jasnah to soulcast you into bacon. (I think soulcast bacon is considered vegetarian.)

Bro, why don't you do it?

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13 hours ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

you are asking for me to get jasnah to soulcast you into bacon. (I think soulcast bacon is considered vegetarian.)

So, I would be bacon, not only entirely delicious, but for the first time ever, the best-smelling thing in the room.  And you would still be a non-tasty indigestible thing that smells like a person, so, in this situation, I still win.

Edited by Aliroz-The-Confused
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On 2/15/2021 at 11:39 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The last thing Leras did was point to the Northeast. Cross this with the other time he tried to tell Elend to go there, and you end up in the lower right of the Terris mountains. Maybe there was a Dawnshard hidden there? And Leras did mention a weapon to Kelsier...

That is actually a really good observation. I think you are on to something here. Post-Catecendre, where would that location be now?

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1 hour ago, Chinkoln said:

That is actually a really good observation. I think you are on to something here. Post-Catecendre, where would that location be now?

Exactly where it was. The Northern continent looks the same as it did.

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On 2/15/2021 at 11:39 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The last thing Leras did was point to the Northeast. Cross this with the other time he tried to tell Elend to go there, and you end up in the lower right of the Terris mountains. Maybe there was a Dawnshard hidden there? And Leras did mention a weapon to Kelsier...

Didn't P&R create Scadrial ex nihilo? So that would require one of them to have had a Dawnshard on them to cache in the planet somewhere, unless it was placed there later.

Anyway, the whole final "move for yes, don't move for no" conversation that Elend had with "the mist spirit" that was Ghost Leras' Last Gasp, amounted to:

  • Don't attack Fadrex City
  • Head to the northeast
  • The mists "are connected to all this"... and they aren't (just) killing people
  • "Something about metal, like in my Allomantic vial?"
  • We have a chance... A slight chance... To survive

And to the northeast of Fadrex City are the Pits of Hathsin, the kandra homeland, and the enormous cache of atium he and his merry band of Seers were meant to burn away before Ruin could discover it.

As for "the weapon" Leras mentions to Kelsier in Secret History, he rambles that it was linked to his numerical clue of "sixteen" - this was a reference to his twiddling the Allomantic table to allow the mists to produce atium-burning Seer mistings in exactly 1/16th of those it Snapped, so that more than just Mistborn could aid in burning away Ruin's body.

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11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Didn't P&R create Scadrial ex nihilo? So that would require one of them to have had a Dawnshard on them to cache in the planet somewhere, unless it was placed there later.

Anyway, the whole final "move for yes, don't move for no" conversation that Elend had with "the mist spirit" that was Ghost Leras' Last Gasp, amounted to:

  • Don't attack Fadrex City
  • Head to the northeast
  • The mists "are connected to all this"... and they aren't (just) killing people
  • "Something about metal, like in my Allomantic vial?"
  • We have a chance... A slight chance... To survive

And to the northeast of Fadrex City are the Pits of Hathsin, the kandra homeland, and the enormous cache of atium he and his merry band of Seers were meant to burn away before Ruin could discover it.

As for "the weapon" Leras mentions to Kelsier in Secret History, he rambles that it was linked to his numerical clue of "sixteen" - this was a reference to his twiddling the Allomantic table to allow the mists to produce atium-burning Seer mistings in exactly 1/16th of those it Snapped, so that more than just Mistborn could aid in burning away Ruin's body.

Leras points Northeast twice. Once in HoA and once in WoA. In HoA Elend - and the text - note that Leras is pointing in the SAME direction. If you make two lines pointing Northeast at the same angle from the two locations they converge in the lower, far eastern Terris mountains.

Elend was above and to the east of the Pits the first time Leras pointed, so this could not be what Leras was trying to indicate as the text implies he was trying to lead Elend to the same place twice.

Interestingly, The Sovereign’s Temple is located nearly due South of the same portion of the range. That might be a coincidence though.

Brandon has RAFOd the weapon, btw, which is why many suspect it isn’t what we’re supposed to think.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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23 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Leras points Northeast twice. Once in HoA and once in WoA. In HoA Elend - and the text - note that Leras is pointing in the SAME direction. If you make two lines pointing Northeast at the same angle from the two locations they converge in the lower, far eastern Terris mountains.

But I would instead draw the conclusion that Leras was pointing to two different places, for two different reasons, in the two different scenes. The second time, when Elend was outside Fadrex City, given the rest of the conversation and what ended up happening with Elend and the Seers burning away just about all the atium available on Scadrial, I think it's pretty clear he was pointing towards the Pits/Homeland and the atium cache. (How Leras knew it was there but not Ruin is worth asking, though, as it should have been equally "blindingly hidden" to his Shardvision as it was to Ruin's due to all the metal in the area, and all the care that Rashek took to avoid ever saying aloud anything about the scheme, nor writing down anything about it except on metal.)

The first time, which I hadn't as clear a memory of, in WoA... Where/when was that, again?

I went back and looked - this is the part where Elend and Spook are slowly headed back to Luthadel on foot, after Vin had raced on ahead to go back (first via pewterdrag running, then by using the Horseshoe Trick with a mix of steel and iron). This was after Spook confessed that he had been sent with them to lead them away from the koloss assault on the city so they would survive (WoA Ch. 56).

Physically, Elend and Spook were still near the place where Vin had realized the pulses were coming from Luthadel, as well as wanting to go back and to fight to save their abandoned friends - "only a few days ride from Luthadel" heading towards the Terris Mountains (of the Final Empire), and the "mist spirit" points Elend to the north. "Away from Luthadel."

But is this mist spirit he sees even Preservation? Wasn't Ruin posing as the "mist spirit" at numerous points?

23 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Brandon has RAFOd the weapon, btw, which is why many suspect it isn’t what we’re supposed to think.

Well, he's not above RAFO'ing questions to leave the door open to rampant fan speculation in a direction he doesn't care to shut down, whether because he has something in mind in that regard or just because that's the whole fun of fantasy worldbuilding and storytelling over a span of years and decades, yeah?

Still, I hadn't known that, and a search in the WoB archives turned it up:

Quote

Questioner

So, in Secret History, Fuzz mentions a weapon that he buried? Is that the atium, or is that something else?

Brandon Sanderson

*hums* Go ahead Joel. *Joel holds up RAFO sign*

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

So... It's not impossible, that's for sure, but also not really suggested (yet) by what we've seen/read. (Which is of course the best kind of semi-foreshadowing!)

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4 minutes ago, robardin said:

But I would instead draw the conclusion that Leras was pointing to two different places, for two different reasons, in the two different scenes. The second time, when Elend was outside Fadrex City, given the rest of the conversation and what ended up happening with Elend and the Seers burning away just about all the atium available on Scadrial, I think it's pretty clear he was pointing towards the Pits/Homeland and the atium cache. (How Leras knew it was there but not Ruin is worth asking, though, as it should have been equally "blindingly hidden" to his Shardvision as it was to Ruin's due to all the metal in the area, and all the care that Rashek took to avoid ever saying aloud anything about the scheme, nor writing down anything about it except on metal.)

The first time, which I hadn't as clear a memory of, in WoA... Where/when was that, again?

I went back and looked - this is the part where Elend and Spook are slowly headed back to Luthadel on foot, after Vin had raced on ahead to go back (first via pewterdrag running, then by using the Horseshoe Trick with a mix of steel and iron). This was after Spook confessed that he had been sent with them to lead them away from the koloss assault on the city so they would survive (WoA Ch. 56).

Physically, Elend and Spook were still near the place where Vin had realized the pulses were coming from Luthadel, as well as wanting to go back and to fight to save their abandoned friends - "only a few days ride from Luthadel" heading towards the Terris Mountains (of the Final Empire), and the "mist spirit" points Elend to the north. "Away from Luthadel."

But is this mist spirit he sees even Preservation? Wasn't Ruin posing as the "mist spirit" at numerous points?

Well, he's not above RAFO'ing questions to leave the door open to rampant fan speculation in a direction he doesn't care to shut down, whether because he has something in mind in that regard or just because that's the whole fun of fantasy worldbuilding and storytelling over a span of years and decades, yeah?

Still, I hadn't known that, and a search in the WoB archives turned it up:

So... It's not impossible, that's for sure, but also not really suggested (yet) by what we've seen/read. (Which is of course the best kind of semi-foreshadowing!)

The text specifically notes that it’s ‘the same direction.’ That would indicate that it’s the same place.

Saze also notes that he doesn’t know what Leras was doing with Elend, so it’s unlikely Leras was pointing to the Pits.

Yes, both were Leras. Ruin had no reason to try and tell Elend to go there at that point.

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The text specifically notes that it’s ‘the same direction.’ That would indicate that it’s the same place.

Saze also notes that he doesn’t know what Leras was doing with Elend, so it’s unlikely Leras was pointing to the Pits.

Yes, both were Leras. Ruin had no reason to try and tell Elend to go there at that point.

Well, Ruin was able to manifest as a "fake mist spirit" already in WoA to try to trick Vin, who was a Mistborn central to both his and Preservation's plans; you're saying, why would Ruin bother using his limiited touch on the world to try to deceive Elend, after Vin had departed for Luthadel? Well then, why would Preservation? Why appear to Elend at all at that point (either of them)? 

Anyway, if one were meant to triangulate between the two indicated directions - NE from Fadrex City-ish, and (due?) N from slightly NW of Luthadel - to land somewhere between the Ashmounts of "Torinost" and "Kalling" on this map of the Final Empire,

IMG_20170505_003413.jpg

...and were supposed to piece this together from clues laid down in WoA and Secret History, when he wrote Mistborn before having the Cosmere "fully commissioned"...

It feels like a distinct reach to suppose that as early as 2005-06 when he was writing the Era 1 trilogy, that he'd be laying the foundation for a "Dawnshard" on Scadrial.

But it's certainly possible. Like, perhaps Elend were somehow more suitable for "taking in" the Dawnshard than anybody else would have been?

And even more possible, that he as a writer left that as a dangling tidbit to be able to reconnect as he wished later on, and that by now what he wishes to connect it to is a Dawnshard.

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6 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well, Ruin was able to manifest as a "fake mist spirit" already in WoA to try to trick Vin, who was a Mistborn central to both his and Preservation's plans; you're saying, why would Ruin bother using his limiited touch on the world to try to deceive Elend, after Vin had departed for Luthadel? Well then, why would Preservation? Why appear to Elend at all at that point (either of them)? 

Anyway, if one were meant to triangulate between the two indicated directions - NE from Fadrex City-ish, and (due?) N from slightly NW of Luthadel - to land somewhere between the Ashmounts of "Torinost" and "Kalling" on this map of the Final Empire,

IMG_20170505_003413.jpg

...and were supposed to piece this together from clues laid down in WoA and Secret History, when he wrote Mistborn before having the Cosmere "fully commissioned"...

It feels like a distinct reach to suppose that as early as 2005-06 when he was writing the Era 1 trilogy, that he'd be laying the foundation for a "Dawnshard" on Scadrial.

But it's certainly possible. Like, perhaps Elend were somehow more suitable for "taking in" the Dawnshard than anybody else would have been?

And even more possible, that he as a writer left that as a dangling tidbit to be able to reconnect as he wished later on, and that by now what he wishes to connect it to is a Dawnshard.

I think they were Northeast of Luthadel, actually. I have a thread about this in the Mistborn forum if you want to discuss it there. We can’t triangulate though, as we only have two points. We can only get a convergence point.

Brandon had his nine book plan for Mistborn laid out when he wrote the trilogy. There is foreshadowing for Era 3 in Era 1. (Trell being the most obvious.) There may even be Era 4 foreshadowing.

HoA was published in 2008. WoK was published in 2010. By that time Brandon had already conceived of the Dawnshards as they are mentioned in the latter book.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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8 hours ago, robardin said:

...and were supposed to piece this together from clues laid down in WoA and Secret History, when he wrote Mistborn before having the Cosmere "fully commissioned"...

It feels like a distinct reach to suppose that as early as 2005-06 when he was writing the Era 1 trilogy, that he'd be laying the foundation for a "Dawnshard" on Scadrial.

While I'm not completely sold on the idea of a Dawnshard on Scadrial, it's worth noting that Brandon had already conceived of them six years before writing Hero of Ages, because as he says a plot point in Dragonsteel Prime (written in 2000) was people unwittingly becoming the hosts of Dawnshards. The term didn't exist in the original apparently but the concept was already in place, so it doesn't really strain credibility to me that he had enough of what he wanted to do with them worked out that he could have slipped some foreshadowing for one into MB1, if that's what this ends up being.

Edited by Weltall
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