Alich

So what is Taravangian's motivation now?

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Apologies if this has already been discussed.

I have a very bad feeling about the ending. Like many of you here, it seems to me that T. will be the real villain of the SA.

In his words, now he has the chance and power to 'save them all'. Save from what? Now that humans have a way to permanently kill the Fused, and some singers managed to escape and create a society away from the war, peace is a matter of time. If the war was indeed what T. wanted to save humans from. But maybe not, maybe I didn't understand his earlier motivation?

If T. keeps the corrupting (evil) power of Odium in check, he should be fine, but even sane, yet uncorrupted T. at the end of the book says (thinks) very ominous things.

Anyway, what might his end goal be with Roshar and its inhabitants?

Edited by Alich
typo in title
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Taravangian Is a machiavellian charachter, meaning that for him the ends justify the means. I think you understood T's earlier motivation, but at that time he had the point of view of a mere human, who is not aware of the presence of many other planets with sentient beings on them.

I can't dare to imagine what his goals can be now that he has the full cosmere consciousness, but I will go with a wild guess: "save them all" may refer to all the living beings in the cosmere. T. is willing to take upon himself the burden of tough and cruel choices, in order to create a peaceful cosmere.

On this standpoint, it is easy to realize that the future of Roshar and its inhabitants becomes secondary if it can be twisted to obtain the greater good.

Edited by Thaumium
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@Alich Check out this WOB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14622

Rayse failed to turn Dalinar and Kaladin and was basically done as a bad guy. Too much failure in too short a time removes the efficacy of the villain, so he had to be removed. Taravangian will change the relationships between Odium and his forces, and Odium and the good guys in many ways. However, Odium will still be the same villain it has always been. Taravangian pretty much confirms this in his Vessel viewpoint sections. His motivations are different, but the effect will be the same. Taravangian wants to save everyone in the Cosmere since he's assumed that everyone is safe on Roshar since he's holding Odium. His hubris will allow him to create/continue havoc on Roshar anyway without harming his vision of "saving" Roshar.

So in the end, there won't be much difference between Taravangian as Odium and Rayse as Odium.

 

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10 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

@Alich Check out this WOB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14622

Rayse failed to turn Dalinar and Kaladin and was basically done as a bad guy. Too much failure in too short a time removes the efficacy of the villain, so he had to be removed. Taravangian will change the relationships between Odium and his forces, and Odium and the good guys in many ways. However, Odium will still be the same villain it has always been. Taravangian pretty much confirms this in his Vessel viewpoint sections. His motivations are different, but the effect will be the same. Taravangian wants to save everyone in the Cosmere since he's assumed that everyone is safe on Roshar since he's holding Odium. His hubris will allow him to create/continue havoc on Roshar anyway without harming his vision of "saving" Roshar.

So in the end, there won't be much difference between Taravangian as Odium and Rayse as Odium.

 

I agree with most of what you state (thank you for the WoB quote btw, very consistent).

I kind of feel like the conclusion should be different, as from my point of view there will be much difference between T. and Rayse as Odium, the reason being his strong will not yet corrupted by the shard's power and, as Brandon stated, his fallibility as a "recent" mortal. If you think about it, we had T. as Odium for a few pages yet, and still he already managed in interfering with Hoid's plan (the depths of this disrupt is yet to be seen, but still an incredible feat), a thing Rayse could not do in thousands of years.

Either way, I am so thrilled to uncover T.'s future plans. Him being not only a powerful god but also a man with a strong philosophy, the exact counterpart of Dalinar's, these are the things that makes a story interesting.

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@Thaumium The interactions between Taravangian and his forces and Taravangian and the good guys will be different than what they would have been with Rayse, no doubt. There will be some opportunities to show this in Book 5, I'm sure. However, Brandon isn't going to suddenly make Book 5 about Odium. It's always been about the viewpoint characters, human vs singer (and the allies on each side), Heralds and Radiants, spren and mortal. The change in Vessel won't change that. Nor will the war suddenly end. Taravangian will let the inertia of the war continue, and may not even have any ability to stop it without hurting his chances of breaking free from being bound to Braize and Roshar. That's still Odium's first goal, and will also be Taravangian's. He can't save the Cosmere from foolish Vessels if he's stuck on Roshar.

So nothing will change about the broad story, just some of the details.

Edited by Leuthie
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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

So nothing will change about the broad story, just some of the details.

at least for the 5th book, but i think it will be much bigger after the time skip between the front and back half.

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I could totally see T being a big bad for the entire cosmere. When ascending, I would assume T would become aware of the Cosmere/Shards, like Harmony, so his statement of "save them all" could be more along the lines of "save them ALL" in the sense of "saving" the people of the cosmere, perhaps from the other shards, even.

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It's fairly obvious Todd thinks of himself the way MCU Thanos does (i.e. doing terrible things for the greater good). I've been wondering if he ends up like Endgame Thanos.

Spoiler

He wants to be the saviour so much that he essentially throws an enormous tantrum when people resist him.

 

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I think Odium has always going to be the "big bad" (or at least a major Big Bad), as the power, as Brandon says, of "god's rage unbound by morals" is a fearsome enemy. With Taravangian at the helm, it adds a more personal touch, we know him and we know that Dalinar knows him. It will surely cause a stir when it's known. I can't imagine how it would shake a world to find out first that your god (honor) is dead, then that there's ANOTHER god (Odium) who is very much alive and trying to destroy you, and THEN that THAT god has been replaced by a person you actually broke bread with! I'm sure it'll be something crazy. But I don't think it's going to change the trajectory of the cosmere so much as change some of the plot points we pass to get there, if that makes sense?

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5 hours ago, Bliev said:

I think Odium has always going to be the "big bad" (or at least a major Big Bad), as the power, as Brandon says, of "god's rage unbound by morals" is a fearsome enemy. With Taravangian at the helm, it adds a more personal touch, we know him and we know that Dalinar knows him. It will surely cause a stir when it's known. I can't imagine how it would shake a world to find out first that your god (honor) is dead, then that there's ANOTHER god (Odium) who is very much alive and trying to destroy you, and THEN that THAT god has been replaced by a person you actually broke bread with! I'm sure it'll be something crazy. But I don't think it's going to change the trajectory of the cosmere so much as change some of the plot points we pass to get there, if that makes sense?

"God's divine wrath separate everything that would give it context" although I can't find the exact quote. I find that even more fearsome. Morality is fickle and mutable. Even Devotion could be a deadly shard without a backing morality. Besides, morality is provided to a Shard by the Vessel. The terrifying thing about Odium is that it is an emotion that shouldn't exist without the tempering of the entire spectrum of emotions. This is why the followers of Odium are called Voidbringers. There's nothing left when you've successfully followed Odium's Intent. At least Ruin has an end game in mind. Hate without context leads to complete emptiness.

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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

"God's divine wrath separate everything that would give it context" although I can't find the exact quote. I find that even more fearsome. Morality is fickle and mutable. Even Devotion could be a deadly shard without a backing morality. Besides, morality is provided to a Shard by the Vessel. The terrifying thing about Odium is that it is an emotion that shouldn't exist without the tempering of the entire spectrum of emotions. This is why the followers of Odium are called Voidbringers. There's nothing left when you've successfully followed Odium's Intent. At least Ruin has an end game in mind. Hate without context leads to complete emptiness.

Definitely terrifying. 
i was quoting recent wob on shardcast the other day:

Quote

It is constrained by Taravangian and directed by Taravangian, but it's the rage of a deity separated from its morals should be a scary thing.

But yes, we could def go down a morality rabbit hole that probably isn’t useful. :-)

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4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

 The terrifying thing about Odium is that it is an emotion that shouldn't exist without the tempering of the entire spectrum of emotions. 

I might be wrong, but I have always intended and I would say it is heavily implied that what Odium represents is actually the entire spectrum of emotions. He should reward any passion, in theory whether they be (generally considered) good or bad ones.

But i agree that as a matter of fact he usually ends up rewarding the bad ones, it is specified in the text a few times with things like "oh, empathy is a rarely rewarded passion, be careful with it" or some similar lines. (Sorry if I cannot quote the exact text, I red the books in the italian translation)

I do not recollect this having ever been explained. What do you think might be the reason for it? Is it the Shard's Intent converging on evil emotions for narrative reasons or is there a deeper explanation?

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

There's nothing left when you've successfully followed Odium's Intent. At least Ruin has an end game in mind. Hate without context leads to complete emptiness.

Wow. THIS gave me actual chills. Good point.

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7 hours ago, Thaumium said:

I might be wrong, but I have always intended and I would say it is heavily implied that what Odium represents is actually the entire spectrum of emotions. He should reward any passion, in theory whether they be (generally considered) good or bad ones.

No, we have several other Shards of Emotion, Odium is not all of them.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, we have several other Shards of Emotion, Odium is not all of them.

I can only think of one off hand, Devotion. Are you also including Valor?

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22 minutes ago, Elerosse said:

I can only think of one off hand, Devotion. Are you also including Valor?

And Whimsy which is more of an emotional/mental state but still counts

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I don’t think Odium could be all emotions.

He’s certainly nothing more than the passionate or intense emotions, that some paradigms might term high-arousal.

Spoiler

We don’t ever see him associated with low-key emotions (things like “contentment” on the positive side, or even simple sorrow on the negative side; let alone pro social emotions like compassion). The emotions he focuses on seem to be powerful with an undercurrent of discontent.

Odium is also very likely skewed toward what some emotion paradigms might consider “negative valence” or unpleasant emotions like anger.

Spoiler

This doesn’t mean there can’t be joy in what he does, it just seems like the things that make Odium the closest we see him to happy, giving him a sort of fierce, twisted pleasure, are the terrible kind of things a person might do to feed their anger or hatred (like overwhelming Dalinar to turn him to the dark side).

Most importantly, though, if Odium were additional emotions unrelated to hatred, the way he affects his Vessel should be different. Taravangian was weepy and highly emotional in his “dumb” state, so he was open it whatever emotions Odium offered. Yet this is what we see when Taravangian interacts with Odium (emphasis mine):

Row ch. 113

Quote

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.

RoW ch. 114

Quote

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

Quote

He was free.… Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!

…That’s the emotional drive overwhelming Taravangian moments after taking up this power. It’s not nuanced or balanced, it is destructive and violent.

So, if Odium is part of a spectrum of emotions, he would have to be just the extreme emotions we might think of as Passion; only, in a very specific, limited sense that explicitly has nothing to do with love...one that might as well be termed as Hatred.

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Hate isn't an emotion. It's a state of mind made up of several different emotions. It leads from and to these emotions. In the same way grief goes through a defined system of emotions, rage does so, as well. Trigger, escalation, crisis, recovery and depression. Each of these stages carry their own range of emotions. The final one is depression. Void.

The complexity of emotions Odium likes is due to the nature of rage, not because Odium is the Shard of Passions. Every Shard has emotions associated with it. Odium doesn't get them all.

The scenes with Taravangian make this explicitly clear. The Shard wants to destroy and wreak havoc and terror. These things the Shard likes, but they also result in more Hatred from those who were hurt by the havoc so the cycle can continue.

Edited by Leuthie
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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Hate isn't an emotion. It's a state of mind made up of several different emotions. It leads from and to these emotions. In the same way grief goes through a defined system of emotions, rage does so, as well. Trigger, escalation, crisis, recovery and depression. Each of these stages carry their own range of emotions. The final one is depression. Void.

The complexity of emotions Odium likes is due to the nature of rage, not because Odium is the Shard of Passions. Every Shard has emotions associated with it. Odium doesn't get them all.

The scenes with Taravangian make this explicitly clear. The Shard wants to destroy and wreak havoc and terror. These things the Shard likes, but they also result in more Hatred from those who were hurt by the havoc so the cycle can continue.

What’s interesting to me is that hatred should also include endurance, persistence, revolution and reconstruction. Hatred can be a great motivator for rebuilding when you have nothing left. It just has to be channeled right. So it feels odd to me that the constructive elements of hatred are absent.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

What’s interesting to me is that hatred should also include endurance, persistence, revolution and reconstruction. Hatred can be a great motivator for rebuilding when you have nothing left. It just has to be channeled right. So it feels odd to me that the constructive elements of hatred are absent.

Isn’t channeling the hatred (properly, potentially) exactly what we would get if we combined Honor and Hatred? I think the reason we only see the destructive aspects of hatred is precisely because it’s been unnaturally separated from the focusing or constructive aspects of what Adonalsium used to be. It’s hatred in a void, absent limiting or directing factors outside that raw aggrievedness.

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15 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Isn’t channeling the hatred (properly, potentially) exactly what we would get if we combined Honor and Hatred? I think the reason we only see the destructive aspects of hatred is precisely because it’s been unnaturally separated from the focusing or constructive aspects of what Adonalsium used to be. It’s hatred in a void, absent limiting or directing factors outside that raw aggrievedness.

There was nothing honorable about it though. If anything the closest thing I’ve seen in the Cosmere is Kelsier’s refusal to let TLR take his ability to smile away. It was THAT kind of hatred.

A refusal to be broken by evil. To succeed if only so they could spit in the eye of their would be destroyer. To thrive in spite of their oppression. To smile despite the the darkness. Revenge born of living life to its fullest. Of surviving all attempts at their destruction. Of rebuilding from ash if only to prove that they had NOT been destroyed. That they lived! That they remembered! That they would never forget and never forgive! The best form of vengeance is the beat of my heart, the breath in my lungs, the blood in my veins and the life of my children and the names of the martyrs we carry.

Their is nothing of Honor in that. Preservation, maybe, as the form of vengeance is directed at survival, remembrance, and endurance. But then you may as well ask why Odium’s form of hatred is so Ruinous? If it’s separated from the other attributes then why should it want to destroy at all? That’s Ruin, not Odium. So something else is going on.

Hatred is just an emotion and can be used for good or bad. I think the issue may be that people perceive hatred/anger as bad and don’t see how it can be a good thing or used constructively. It’s associated with destruction, so maybe that shapes the manifestation of the Intent.

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14 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Hatred is just an emotion and can be used for good or bad. I think the issue may be that people perceive hatred/anger as bad and don’t see how it can be a good thing or used constructively. It’s associated with destruction, so maybe that shapes the manifestation of the Intent.

That’s probably most of it. But for me, none of the things you listed as other aspects or results of hate actually spring from hate, no matter how it might play into them. Defiance, maybe. So it’s entirely possible that the author also doesn’t associate hatred closely enough with those more constructive things you’re thinking of.

15 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

A refusal to be broken by evil. To succeed if only so they could spit in the eye of their would be destroyer. To thrive in spite of their oppression. To smile despite the the darkness. Revenge born of living life to its fullest. Of surviving all attempts at their destruction. Of rebuilding from ash if only to prove that they had NOT been destroyed. That they lived! That they remembered! That they would never forget and never forgive! The best form of vengeance is the beat of my heart, the breath in my lungs, the blood in my veins and the life of my children and the names of the martyrs we carry.

That seems all about survival (preserving the self) and revenge (ruining the other) to me. Spitting in the eye of somebody by surviving or thriving isn’t something I associate with hatred, even if the emotion plays a role, but rather with the desire to prove them wrong or inferior. I’d actually credit ambition or disdain more than hatred, since this seems more about forcing people to admit you’re better than about outright destroying them. Rubbing their face in it is the point, not obliterating them.

It’s likely I just don’t get hatred, though.

23 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Their is nothing of Honor in that. Preservation, maybe, as the form of vengeance is directed at survival, remembrance, and endurance.

That seems extremely apt to me. Perhaps because I don’t see hatred as being necessary, or necessarily even instrumental in, the other actions you mentioned, I can actually see the combination of a desire for preservation (survival) and a desire for ruin (overcome, even thrown down oppressors/opposition) driving those actions. 

21 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There was nothing honorable about it though.

Hmmm, I thought, in-universe, Honor was about connection, oaths, and binding. which I imagined would mean binding hatred into something more directed, more channeled.

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9 minutes ago, Kyn said:

That’s probably most of it. But for me, none of the things you listed as other aspects or results of hate actually spring from hate, no matter how it might play into them. Defiance, maybe. So it’s entirely possible that the author also doesn’t associate hatred closely enough with those more constructive things you’re thinking of.

That seems all about survival (preserving the self) and revenge (ruining the other) to me. Spitting in the eye of somebody by surviving or thriving isn’t something I associate with hatred, even if the emotion plays a role, but rather with the desire to prove them wrong or inferior. I’d actually credit ambition or disdain more than hatred, since this seems more about forcing people to admit you’re better than about outright destroying them. Rubbing their face in it is the point, not obliterating them.

It’s likely I just don’t get hatred, though.

That seems extremely apt to me. Perhaps because I don’t see hatred as being necessary, or necessarily even instrumental in, the other actions you mentioned, I can actually see the combination of a desire for preservation (survival) and a desire for ruin (overcome, even thrown down oppressors/opposition) driving those actions. 

Hmmm, I thought, in-universe, Honor was about connection, oaths, and binding. which I imagined would mean binding hatred into something more directed, more channeled.

Well, my great-grandparents liked to look at us and say, “Hitler didn’t win,” which probably explains a bit. Hatred is definitely a factor, although there are many, many other elements too. I grew up with that implicit understanding that my very existence was a form of revenge and that some things could never be forgiven. It’s a very hard thing to describe if you don’t grow up with it.

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