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Sigzil suspicions


PleatherDuster

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Did anyone else think it was strange when Sigzil suggested to the Coalition (at the big meeting in Chapter 19) that they send an envoy to the Honorspren? Every one else with any insight into the situation (or at least Syl, Notum, Kalak, everyone in Lasting Integrity) seemed to immediately recognize it as a Really Bad Idea. Those Honorspren (at least the ones in charge) were not about to listen to reason.

But Sig's spren thought it was a great plan. I don't get it. I guess maybe she's one of the "newer generation"? But...seems fishy to me that she'd be that out of touch with the others. Plus it was already established (to the reader) that Shallan wanted to get back to Shadesmar (and maybe also Adolin too, though I can't remember why), all she needed was a good excuse...and then two days later, Sig gives her the perfect opening. Seems connected to me. 

What do you think? Did Sigzil's spren really come up with the idea to send a team into Shadesmar to appeal the the honor of the Honorspren? Or maybe...could Wit have put him up to it, and if so why? Why would Wit what them in Shadesmar? We know why Mraize wanted Shallan there, but could Wit have had something to gain? We know he was keeping tabs on them (to some degree anyways) through Patterns spying. 

Sort of related: We have this juicy bit of knowledge that Sig used to work closely with Wit as a Worldsinger. That by itself would make me a teensy bit suspicious of him, but the fact that we got that info all the way back in... WoK (I think?), and 3 books later we STILL know barely anything about the circumstances of that relationship...well that makes me think that maybe their "partnership" (in crime? lol) continues to some degree. There's gotta be a secret there!

 

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47 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Did anyone else think it was strange when Sigzil suggested to the Coalition (at the big meeting in Chapter 19) that they send an envoy to the Honorspren? Every one else with any insight into the situation (or at least Syl, Notum, Kalak, everyone in Lasting Integrity) seemed to immediately recognize it as a Really Bad Idea. Those Honorspren (at least the ones in charge) were not about to listen to reason.

But Sig's spren thought it was a great plan. I don't get it. I guess maybe she's one of the "newer generation"? But...seems fishy to me that she'd be that out of touch with the others. Plus it was already established (to the reader) that Shallan wanted to get back to Shadesmar (and maybe also Adolin too, though I can't remember why), all she needed was a good excuse...and then two days later, Sig gives her the perfect opening. Seems connected to me. 

What do you think? Did Sigzil's spren really come up with the idea to send a team into Shadesmar to appeal the the honor of the Honorspren? Or maybe...could Wit have put him up to it, and if so why? Why would Wit what them in Shadesmar? We know why Mraize wanted Shallan there, but could Wit have had something to gain? We know he was keeping tabs on them (to some degree anyways) through Patterns spying. 

Sort of related: We have this juicy bit of knowledge that Sig used to work closely with Wit as a Worldsinger. That by itself would make me a teensy bit suspicious of him, but the fact that we got that info all the way back in... WoK (I think?), and 3 books later we STILL know barely anything about the circumstances of that relationship...well that makes me think that maybe their "partnership" (in crime? lol) continues to some degree. There's gotta be a secret there!

 

It could be Wit. Another theory is that the GBs poached him after Wit essentially abandoned him. Either way, there’s probably another secret.

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2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I mean, they have a better motive for sending Shallan to Lasting Integrity.

They definitely had their motive. Better than the (as of yet) non-existent motive of Wit's. It's just really hard for me to image Sigzil as a Ghostblood, though it would be a great twist. He'd have to have the tattoo, right?

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I can see either Wit or Mraize as a possible influence on Sigzil.

@PleatherDuster, nice catch on the Worldsinger angle, I had completely forgotten about that.  I recall that Sigzil was VERY concerned about measuring up to his master's hopes and expectations... but now that he's around all the time, at the SAME STORMING MEETING as Sigzil, they don't even speak to or acknowledge each other?  Wit's old student is now a Knight Radiant, and Sig's old master is hooking up with Jasnah... but they don't recognize each other somehow?  That seems VERY weird. 

In any case, I get the vibe that Wit has his reasons for wanting Shallan to become more Cosmere-aware, while at the same time seeming somewhat protective of her, and he clearly has an idea of what the Ghostbloods are up to, as evidenced by his scheme with Pattern.  He could easily have a motive for the Shadesmar trip.

As for Mraize, @Kingsdaughter613 I agree his motives are quite clear, but I'm confident that a guy as resourceful and devious as he is could find any number of ways to trick, prod, or manipulate someone into making a suggestion at a meeting without actually recruiting and tattooing them.  Do you disagree?

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5 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I can see either Wit or Mraize as a possible influence on Sigzil.

@PleatherDuster, nice catch on the Worldsinger angle, I had completely forgotten about that.  I recall that Sigzil was VERY concerned about measuring up to his master's hopes and expectations... but now that he's around all the time, at the SAME STORMING MEETING as Sigzil, they don't even speak to or acknowledge each other?  Wit's old student is now a Knight Radiant, and Sig's old master is hooking up with Jasnah... but they don't recognize each other somehow?  That seems VERY weird. 

In any case, I get the vibe that Wit has his reasons for wanting Shallan to become more Cosmere-aware, while at the same time seeming somewhat protective of her, and he clearly has an idea of what the Ghostbloods are up to, as evidenced by his scheme with Pattern.  He could easily have a motive for the Shadesmar trip.

As for Mraize, @Kingsdaughter613 I agree his motives are quite clear, but I'm confident that a guy as resourceful and devious as he is could find any number of ways to trick, prod, or manipulate someone into making a suggestion at a meeting without actually recruiting and tattooing them.  Do you disagree?

No, I don’t disagree. But I think the GBs would consider it quite coup to recruit one of Hoid’s own students. We know they actively recruit from other organizations. And an important Windrunner would be a nice feather in their cap.

Let’s put it this way: can you see Kelsier not trying to snag one of Hoid’s protégées given the slightest opportunity?

If Sig is a GB though, I don’t think it was Mraize who recruited him.

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54 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I don’t disagree. But I think the GBs would consider it quite coup to recruit one of Hoid’s own students. We know they actively recruit from other organizations. And an important Windrunner would be a nice feather in their cap.

Let’s put it this way: can you see Kelsier not trying to snag one of Hoid’s protégées given the slightest opportunity?

If Sig is a GB though, I don’t think it was Mraize who recruited him.

Plot twist Sig is a double agent for Hoid.

actually I don't see that as implausible, 

that would make a really intresting story.

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It really would. The question is if a Windrunner can be a double agent. I’m not sure they can, because it might require conflicting oaths.

It might not, imformation can be as useful if not more useful than force in protecting people. Though, given who runs the Roasharan branch of the Ghoastbloods that might be a problem, though if they know about his Oaths I don't think they'd try to break them, his powers are useful.

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12 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

all she needed was a good excuse...and then two days later, Sig gives her the perfect opening. Seems connected to me. 

I wasn't really onboard with the idea in till I read this line, then I became very suspicious of ghostblood interference. 

That said, there are two problems with that. Having seen Sig's POV, plus having known him in general, it seems unlikely he'd turn traitor. And his spren is an honorspen, so being a secret agent also seems unlikely. So I'm not sure how the GB would influence the situation here. Being a double agent wouldn't conflict with their oaths, but the people honorspren are attracted to are the type of people I wouldn't expect too much underhanded activity from. 

Hoid is another choice, we haven't seen him and Sig interact much. Although I'd mark that up to just too much going on and not enough space for a bunch of minor things to happen in the story. So it could be possible, but I'm not sure what motive Hoid would have for getting Shallan into Shadesmar. 

So I'm going to chalk it up to Sig's spren being a bit more hopeful. We did see a good portion of the Honorspren were willing to aid the humans against orders from the older spren, and some that were willing, but wouldn't go against orders, although tension was building. 

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2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Not really, if both masters are the same goal - protection of innocents.

 

Just now, Frustration said:

It might not, imformation can be as useful if not more useful than force in protecting people. Though, given who runs the Roasharan branch of the Ghoastbloods that might be a problem, though if they know about his Oaths I don't think they'd try to break them, his powers are useful.

If all oaths align, sure! But if part of the GB oaths are ‘don’t work against GB interests’ and Hoid is working against those interests then I don’t see how Sig could give him information on GB activities.

3 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

I wasn't really onboard with the idea in till I read this line, then I became very suspicious of ghostblood interference. 

That said, there are two problems with that. Having seen Sig's POV, plus having known him in general, it seems unlikely he'd turn traitor. And his spren is an honorspen, so being a secret agent also seems unlikely. So I'm not sure how the GB would influence the situation here. Being a double agent wouldn't conflict with their oaths, but the people honorspren are attracted to are the type of people I wouldn't expect too much underhanded activity from. 

Hoid is another choice, we haven't seen him and Sig interact much. Although I'd mark that up to just too much going on and not enough space for a bunch of minor things to happen in the story. So it could be possible, but I'm not sure what motive Hoid would have for getting Shallan into Shadesmar. 

So I'm going to chalk it up to Sig's spren being a bit more hopeful. We did see a good portion of the Honorspren were willing to aid the humans against orders from the older spren, and some that were willing, but wouldn't go against orders, although tension was building. 

That’s why I don’t think Mraize recruited him. However, a GB could be a Windrunner. We know this because Vin was very Windrunner inclined - and that didn’t prevent her from working with Kelsier.

So I can definitely see a Windrunner being able to be a GB. And I don’t think that one would be considered a traitor. If the GBs don’t want Odium free, then there’s no issue in Sigzil serving the coalition toward that end. Remember: GBs are independent agents. Sigzil could easily be serving both groups. Problems only occur if the Coalition and the GBs start working against one another.

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A potential reason why Sig and Wit don't act in the meeting in a way that would be expected with their prior relationship is the time gap. There's been enough time for the "oh man! My master is back!" / "you did well, Sig!" conversation(s) . Now a year later Sig is just being professional in his new role and Wit being involved in things isn't a new revelation for him, so they each are just doing their jobs at that meeting. 

 

It's also possible that the GB could have influenced Sig and his spren to think the envoy was a good idea without actually recruiting him, by having their operatives present data to them in a certain way. My recollection is that Sig knows it's not going to be easy or necessarily successful, but thinks it's the best chance they have at getting Honorspren help. So he doesn't necessarily think it's a good idea so much as the best option with the only alternatives being worse. 

 

So I can see him just proposing the mission as the only thing left to try at that point without any outside influence, but I could also see GB or someone else either suggesting it or manipulating him into thinking it has a higher chance of success than he normally would, without him even knowing it. 

 

Great theory! 

Edited by cfphelps
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5 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Having seen Sig's POV, plus having known him in general, it seems unlikely he'd turn traitor

I feel the same. I'm suspicious, but I also find it hard to believe he'd be doing anything overtly traitorous. Just like when Shallan thought Pattern was the spy. That's just didn't seem plausible to me based on all their previous interactions (though I suppose we never have had a Pattern POV section).

How about this: everyone is working for Hoid! Even Mraize--that's why they share a seon (joking). 

But back to the tattoo. I can't remember if this is true, but don't Radiant bodies remove tattoos as a form of healing? Maybe I'm getting mixed up with the slave brands...

 

 

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1 hour ago, PleatherDuster said:

But back to the tattoo. I can't remember if this is true, but don't Radiant bodies remove tattoos as a form of healing? Maybe I'm getting mixed up with the slave brands...

Radiants heal what they view as damage, or not part of themselves. If they've accepted the tattoos, then they can have them. 

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When I read this in the books, I just interpreted the delegation offer as Sigzil being rather Azish, and his honorspren probably having a similar approach as him. We've had Sigzil pov but it didn't smell of unreliable narrator like Shallan "dissociates when her mother is mentioned" Davar, so I think it would be a shocking, but not a particularly well telegraphed twist if Sigzil was a spy. His odd (non)relationship with Wit raises some questions, but what do I know. Maybe he thinks Wit is too obnoxious to be around (I wouldn't blame him;))

Edited by yulyulk
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On 2/4/2021 at 9:32 AM, yulyulk said:

When I read this in the books, I just interpreted the delegation offer as Sigzil being rather Azish, and his honorspren probably having a similar approach as him. We've had Sigzil pov but it didn't smell of unreliable narrator like Shallan "dissociates when her mother is mentioned" Davar, so I think it would be a shocking, but not a particularly well telegraphed twist if Sigzil was a spy. His odd (non)relationship with Wit raises some questions, but what do I know. Maybe he thinks Wit is too obnoxious to be around (I wouldn't blame him;))

I’d like to point out that Kelsier spent an entire book ‘not thinking’ about his plan to die. So Sigzil could easily have just been focused on getting his paperwork right and ‘not thinking’ about Hoid or the GBs.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@Kingsdaughter613 this is the general RoW, not Cosmere

I suggest you first go complain in any and all topics discussing Thaidakar, the Ghostbloods, Cognitive Shadows, Vessels, Shards and Connection. Because those are bringing up unspoilered secrets from Secret History, released in 2016. Also the meme thread, the fake spoilers thread, the reactions thread, and several dozen others...

TFE, in contrast, was released in 2006. Complaining that I mentioned TFE here is a little ridiculous when many more recent books are being discussed sans spoilers.

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