[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

1. The Everstorm somehow brute forced the Oathpact in the Oathpact's weakened state, and Fused were allowed through without a Herald quitting. 
2. Another Herald Broke and the Everstorm was put into place after that to make this desolation the last one
3. Something we cant guess right now. 

#1 seems most likely to me, with what we know from Sja-anat, Pattern, and Venli, personally.

Quote

Sja-anat was a little like both. During the long millennia before this Return, she’d mostly slumbered. Without her bond to Odium she had trouble thinking. The Everstorm appearing in Shadesmar—long before it had emerged into the Physical Realm—had revitalized her. Had let her begin planning again.

Quote

“I wanted to be in the other realm. See that part of our world. And I knew danger was coming. All spren could sense it. The Oathpact was no longer working correctly. Voidspren were sneaking onto Roshar, using some kind of back door. Two halves cannot fight this enemy. We need to be whole.”

Quote

She didn’t quite understand his explanations of what was happening. But she knew a storm was mounting in Shadesmar. In fact, the storm had been building for generations—growing in fury, intensity. It barred the way to Damnation.

That storm was where Ulim had originally come from. There were also thousands of another kind of spren in the storm: stormspren. Mindless things like windspren or flamespren.

Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape—unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

The storm in some way seems to allow things to escape, which imo kinda renders the Oathpact moot. Lezian seems to think something similar:

Quote

“No one has ever defeated me twice,” the creature whispered. “But if you somehow managed such a feat, I would keep coming. We are no longer confined to Braize at the end of the war, and I am immortal. I can follow you forever. I am the spren of vengeance.”

If all that would be required is killing a Herald and sending them back, I don't think he'd be so sure he won't be trapped again.

[mathiau]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Or Thaidakar. We are talking about hundreds of years and a public figure with a large number of admirers. Frankly, this is nigh inevitable.

Actually it's very avoidable. First because the reproduction issue Returned is likely to be common to all types of CSs and second because having a large number of admirers doesn't mean you have sex with them.

Though of course he could have had a child since era 1 and knowing @Kingsdaughter613 it's probably who she was thinking about when asking the question.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The storm in some way seems to allow things to escape, which imo kinda renders the Oathpact moot. Lezian seems to think something similar:

Odium himself:

Quote

The Everstorm has changed everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered ny the Everstorm.
The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct.

 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Actually it's very avoidable. First because the reproduction issue Returned is likely to be common to all types of CSs and second because having a large number of admirers doesn't mean you have sex with them.

For centuries? Kelsier is a great man, but he is a man.

[Bejarden]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium himself:

 

For centuries? Kelsier is a great man, but he is a man.

He’s actually been a bit less for some time and we don’t know when he acquired a body

And he loves Mare to much

[mathiau]

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He’s actually been a bit less for some time and we don’t know when he acquired a body

Most likely still at least 200 years

Quote

And he loves Mare to much

Yes, it's conceivable he'll one day move one and find another significant other but he's certainly not the go for the groupies

[LewsTherinTelescope]

29 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

we don’t know when he acquired a body

He was on the southern continent in the Physical Realm around ten years after the Catacendre, so a pretty long time.

39 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium himself:

Interesting. Wonder if he means Jezrien's death or something else earlier.

[mathiau]

Quote

He was on the southern continent in the Physical Realm around ten years after the Catacendre, so a pretty long time.

I had somehow forgotten about that

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Interesting. Wonder if he means Jezrien's death or something else earlier.

He definitely meant at the moment the Everstorm started

[Bejarden]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He was on the southern continent in the Physical Realm around ten years after the Catacendre, so a pretty long time.

Completely forgot about this but it doesn’t affect the overall point

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

He definitely meant at the moment the Everstorm started

Well, it depends on what "defunct" means here. If the theory this post is about is true (which I don't love but think is possible), then the Heralds might've been sent back, but I wouldn't call the Oathpact defunct, just not currently in effect, and this "defunct" state may have started later on (ie when Jez died). On the other hand, it could still be referring to an earlier thing.

[teknopathetic]

But the Oathpact isn’t gone. Fused still must return to Braize after death but now can get to Roshar much faster because of the Everstorm. 
 

Kelek also seems to believe the oathpact exists - and the heralds are still clearly connected to each other through the pact. 

Something is there, and I just don’t believe Odium could bring back the fused with the Everstorm alone (with no Herald involvement) 

[+Harrycrapper]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Oh, interesting! I too think Gavilar is not dead-dead, but I had not thought of that. Could it both perhaps? Gavilar goes, Shallan's mother dies and then agrees to swap with Gavilar? 

----

For the Shallan's mother theory, we do now have another nod that non-returned cognitive shadows have had children, and we don't have many options for who those Shadows may be. Not proof, but making it more plausible that Shallan has a herald for a mother. 

Kingsdaughter613

I wanted to know if any of the non-Returned Cognitive Shadows have had children?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

This question to Brandon wasn't worded carefully enough. Brandon has answered similarly in the past to similar questions and has said that his definition of children is loose. Spren can also have children as I think Syl explained it seems they just go find a random chunk of Investiture and in some way shape it into a spren. Heralds are basically spren and can do the same thing. Here's a couple of times people asked along similar lines:

Quote

Racedogg2

Are Heralds are capable of procreation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not necessarily saying in the traditional way, but yes, Heralds are capable of procreation.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Quote

Questioner

Is it possible for Heralds to have children?

Brandon Sanderson

So yes, asterisk.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

So, Brandon has avoided confirming whether a Herald could get physically pregnant, which means whether they can or not could play into future events in some way. Or Brandon could be trolling, he does that sometimes. But, someone needs to ask if they are capable of ordinary human pregnancy if they want an answer for this(or find out if it's RAFO territory). I feel like someone has, but couldn't find anything in the Arcanum. 

[mathiau]

24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Well, it depends on what "defunct" means here. If the theory this post is about is true (which I don't love but think is possible), then the Heralds might've been sent back, but I wouldn't call the Oathpact defunct, just not currently in effect, and this "defunct" state may have started later on (ie when Jez died). On the other hand, it could still be referring to an earlier thing.

Since whether or not removing the Everstorm would confine the Fused seem irrelevant to what he's saying I think he means defunct in the "it doesn't do it's job" but he could indeed be using it with the "it doesn't do what it once did" meaning.

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Kelek also seems to believe the oathpact exists - and the heralds are still clearly connected to each other through the pact.

Also Ishar thinks it can be restored.

[+Oltux72]

 

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes, it's conceivable he'll one day move one and find another significant other but he's certainly not the go for the groupies

For over 300 years? OK, maybe my views on human nature are more down to Earth. And it wouldn't require him to move at all. There are very good rational and ideological reasons to bear a Mistborn's child, especially in the South.

 

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But the Oathpact isn’t gone. Fused still must return to Braize after death but now can get to Roshar much faster because of the Everstorm. 

Other Cognitive Shadows are also bound to their place of origin. Putting the blame for that onto the Oathpact is the less likelier option. Furthermore, the thing that binds Odium himself to the Rosharan system is still active.

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Kelek also seems to believe the oathpact exists - and the heralds are still clearly connected to each other through the pact. 

Nobody claimed that it has ceased to exist. It merely has stopped working. Maybe it can even be fixed, but for now it is no longer working and cannot be made to work again by just ending the Desolation.

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Something is there, and I just don’t believe Odium could bring back the fused with the Everstorm alone (with no Herald involvement) 

Shards can bring back the recently deceased. Why would transporting somebody over interplanetary distances be hard?

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

Actually it's very avoidable. First because the reproduction issue Returned is likely to be common to all types of CSs and second because having a large number of admirers doesn't mean you have sex with them.

Though of course he could have had a child since era 1 and knowing @Kingsdaughter613 it's probably who she was thinking about when asking the question.

Indeed I was. It’s part of the ‘how South Scadrial acquired Feruchemy theory.’

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Most likely still at least 200 years

Yes, it's conceivable he'll one day move one and find another significant other but he's certainly not the go for the groupies

340, to be exact.

Dox indicates that Kell was something of a womanizer before Mare (or, at least, was known for attracting female trouble). However, the above theory would have him fathering a child/children out of duty, not desire. 

My current headcannon is that Kell has a crush on Khriss, much to everyone’s amusement (except Kell, who dislikes being teased, and Khriss, who is unaware).

7 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

This question to Brandon wasn't worded carefully enough. Brandon has answered similarly in the past to similar questions and has said that his definition of children is loose. Spren can also have children as I think Syl explained it seems they just go find a random chunk of Investiture and in some way shape it into a spren. Heralds are basically spren and can do the same thing. Here's a couple of times people asked along similar lines:

So, Brandon has avoided confirming whether a Herald could get physically pregnant, which means whether they can or not could play into future events in some way. Or Brandon could be trolling, he does that sometimes. But, someone needs to ask if they are capable of ordinary human pregnancy if they want an answer for this(or find out if it's RAFO territory). I feel like someone has, but couldn't find anything in the Arcanum. 

If I’d asked more specifically I would have received a RAFO.

Note that Brandon usually clarifies if he’s using the word ‘child’ in a non-standard fashion and he wasn’t even slightly cagey about this, so I’m fairly certain this is a straight yes. (In both of your examples he adds an asterisk, while he gave me a simple yes - no caveats.)

Returned cannot have children in the normal manner either, btw. Certain things need to be done. And CS’ are definitively NOT Spren, thanks to an earlier question I’d asked. They don’t have as much innate Investiture, so likely could not procreate the way Spren do.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

For over 300 years? OK, maybe my views on human nature are more down to Earth. And it wouldn't require him to move at all. There are very good rational and ideological reasons to bear a Mistborn's child, especially in the South.

Ok, that's another reason I can accept

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Dox indicates that Kell was something of a womanizer before Mare (or, at least, was known for attracting female trouble). However, the above theory would have him fathering a child/children out of duty, not desire. 

My current headcannon is that Kell has a crush on Khriss, much to everyone’s amusement (except Kell, who dislikes being teased, and Khriss, who is unaware).

And Nazh who's jealous

Quote

And CS’ are definitively NOT Spren, thanks to an earlier question I’d asked. They don’t have as much innate Investiture, so likely could not procreate the way Spren do.

What? Is that counting the divine breaths of Returned or is he talking about the other types of CSs? If it is then Nightblood being sapient at 1 000 breaths is very weird.

Also, don't Spren procreate by using external Investiture and not innate Investiture?

[Jofwu]

18 hours ago, mathiau said:

According to Rlain it's probably more than one thing

What are you referring to here?

[mathiau]

Just now, Jofwu said:

What are you referring to here?

Quote

“There’s a lot you don’t know,” Venli said. “Our gods have returned, terrible as warned. I was largely responsible for this, even if Rlain says he’s certain they would have found their way back anyway.”

 

[Jofwu]

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Well, it depends on what "defunct" means here. If the theory this post is about is true (which I don't love but think is possible), then the Heralds might've been sent back, but I wouldn't call the Oathpact defunct, just not currently in effect, and this "defunct" state may have started later on (ie when Jez died). On the other hand, it could still be referring to an earlier thing.

I agree with your main point here. I DO think that the Odium quote suggests the Everstorm is what makes it defunct, because the paragraph is all about how the Everstorm has changed things. It could be some final thought that takes the paragraph in a new direction, but I think the cleaner interpretation is that the defunct state of the Oathpact is another thing he's attributing to the Everstorm.

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But the Oathpact isn’t gone.

I don't think anyone is saying it is gone. Seems like Odium is just saying that it's irrelevant now. It used to be a wall and now it's a wall with a hole punched through it. Dalinar himself calls it "impotent" in RoW 47. It's not gone. It's simply broken to the point of being powerless.

I guess others have made this point--started typing before reading all the way through the thread. XD

13 hours ago, mathiau said:

Also Ishar thinks it can be restored.

As always, there's the "Ishar is crazy" factor to consider. That said, we got his comment on this during an apparent moment of lucidity, one in which I thin the narrative suggests we can trust what he's saying there.

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

“There’s a lot you don’t know,” Venli said. “Our gods have returned, terrible as warned. I was largely responsible for this, even if Rlain says he’s certain they would have found their way back anyway.”

Ah, I see. I think there's an argument that Rlain is just reassuring her and doesn't fully know what he's talking about. (because I'm not sure where Rlain would get that knowledge from in an entirely certain way) And I don't really see why this implies Rlain thinks it was more than one thing? You can read it as "well, it could have happened multiple ways and one of them was bound to happen" but you can just as easily read it as "well, this one particular thing was bound to happen sooner or later--if you didn't trigger it, someone else would have done it instead."

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Ok, that's another reason I can accept

And Nazh who's jealous

What? Is that counting the divine breaths of Returned or is he talking about the other types of CSs? If it is then Nightblood being sapient at 1 000 breaths is very weird.

Also, don't Spren procreate by using external Investiture and not innate Investiture?

Kingsdaughter613

If a Cognitive Shadow or a Splinter gained Connection to the Physical Realm, could they just transition through a perpendicularity to manifest a physical form, or is something else required?

Brandon Sanderson

Something else would be required, because you're... But that would take you a long way. It's going to depend on the situation, right?

Questioner

Because Ishar was doing something where like he was Connecting spren...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Ishar was doing something, and so for instance, spren are gonna be played a little differently than a Cognitive Shadow would be played. Like, Cognitive Shadows, that's just not gonna be enough. But spren is much closer. This has to do with how much Investiture's involved and how they're Connected and things like this, but it's not quite enough. In most cases.

Questioner

So Ishar was doing something in addition to just Connecting the spren to the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He was indeed doing something more.

So based on this, CS are not Spren. The indication to me was that Spren had greater innate Investiture and that’s why they’d have an easier time manifesting a body.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

Ah, I see. I think there's an argument that Rlain is just reassuring her and doesn't fully know what he's talking about. (because I'm not sure where Rlain would get that knowledge from in an entirely certain way)

Well, he's an Enlightened Truthwatcher now so it's kind of expected he'd know thing he shouldn't know

Quote

And I don't really see why this implies Rlain thinks it was more than one thing? You can read it as "well, it could have happened multiple ways and one of them was bound to happen" but you can just as easily read it as "well, this one particular thing was bound to happen sooner or later--if you didn't trigger it, someone else would have done it instead."

That is possible.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So based on this, CS are not Spren. The indication to me was that Spren had greater innate Investiture and that’s why they’d have an easier time manifesting a body.

From how he's saying it it's still possible Returned are more invested than other CSs and the 1000 breaths idea can still hold.

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Well, he's an Enlightened Truthwatcher now so it's kind of expected he'd know thing he shouldn't know

That is possible.

From how he's saying it it's still possible Returned are more invested than other CSs and the 1000 breaths idea can still hold.

1000 Breaths idea? 

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

1000 Breaths idea? 

Creating Nightblood used 1 000 Breaths so the amount of Investiture required to create a sapient is spren is probably around 1 000 Breaths

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Creating Nightblood used 1 000 Breaths so the amount of Investiture required to create a sapient is spren is probably around 1 000 Breaths

There are indications that something more went into Nightblood’s creation though. And Nightblood has since become more Invested.

Either way, it’s pretty clear from the answer I got that CS are not the same as Spren in certain fundamental ways. I was actually surprised; I’d assumed the rules would be the same with little functional difference except in how they came about. Turns out that isn’t the case at all...

[teknopathetic]

Getting back to the Cognitive Shadows having children, we now know that it is Returned AND ____ that have had cognitive shadow children, so this opens the door a bit more towards the idea that Shallan is a Herald child. Before that WOB, we could have assumed it was just Returned having babies and that no other Cognitive Shadow had managed/wanted to do it. Now that we are looking for an example to fill the "Returned and ____" slot, we get to look at Shallan more purposefully to see if she makes sense there given the on-screen evidence (as opposed to just taking random stabs at what has happened offscreen in other books). 

--

Of the Shadows we know, I would say Heralds seem like the closest thing to Returned that I can think of as they have their previous physical bodies reformed for them.  As a bit of meta-evidence, if someone was to read Warbreaker they would make the connection to Heralds in a lot of ways, and children might be a logical question a reader would be asking about (almost like foreshadowing). 
 

Returned: Cognitive Shadows in functional restored physical bodies that are their own
Heralds:  Cognitive Shadows in functional restored (?) physical bodies that are their own

Thaidakar:

Spoiler

Cognitive shadow that either does not have a body or is stapled stapled to a new body, stapled to their kandra bones, or ???

Fused: Cognitive Shadows that are stapled to a body that is not their own. (Unclear if the child would be related to the Fused-soul or not)

Then we have Lifeless and Shades which are more like walking corpses than functional cognitive shadows, but there might be some wiggle room there to reproduce and end up with something weird. 

And then I guess the Stormfather, but we know he has had children kind of, so I dont think we are talking about him.

---
 

Edited July 22, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau]

27 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There are indications that something more went into Nightblood’s creation though.

That's true but I doubt less than half of Nightblood's starting investiture was breaths

Quote

And Nightblood has since become more Invested.

I don't see how this is relevant here