[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[Jofwu]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Plus, there's the fact that Ulim's here at all. That's kinda a biggie, because he does back up that the Oathpact should still be binding him (when combined with what Pattern said), and (especially relevant) he implies that he believes bringing the Everstorm over will initiate a Return (RoW 73):

The timeline on Taln is unclear I think. Seems like there's a vague WoB about him showing up maybe a few months or weeks before the arrival in Kholinar?

I have been under the impression that the Heralds generally showed up on Roshar immediately after one of them broke, and that it took some time for the Fused to get there. Not certain what my basis for that is though.

As for the voidspren.... I've never been quite sure what to make of them. I don't think Ulim's presence implies much. He was there before the Everstorm too--heck, he was even around before Shallan killed her mother--so I don't think there's any basis to link Ulim's arrival with the Oathpact that strongly? Nale knows exactly who Ulim is when they meet on the night of Gavilar's assassination, but he doesn't say, "WTF, how are you here? Did Taln break?" I'm under the impression that Voidspren have been able to escape from Braize all along. It's just... hard I guess?

I read Ulim's point there as just a small lie. He IS outright lying to her there, about the praise and rewards she will get. The point of the Everstorm seems to be more about restoring the singers than anything else?

And the Everstorm didn't arrive until after Taln apparently broke, right? At least, not in the Physical Realm. So it suggests the Everstorm WOULD have been a bypass... but then a Herald broke anyways and they didn't need it? ...or... maybe it only needed to build up to some degree in the Cognitive Realm to some extent before it could serve as a bypass? But if that's the case again Ulim is lying because the bringing the thing into the Physical Realm was irrelevant to starting the Return. And I'm skeptical regardless because then why didn't the Fused start showing up until after?

Basically, the sequence of events doesn't make much sense to me if the Everstorm was a workaround. I would have expected Fused on Roshar before Taln arrived if it were. Or else it was a workaround they didn't need because a Herald coincidentally broke a few months before they needed it?? Just seems odd.

[mathiau]

4 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I  guess I should have said that I disagree that there's any "weird questions" like this, as the OP calls them. It doesn't seem weird to me that Taln broke, that Shallan's mom could have happened to be associated with secret organizations, etc. etc. I don't see why Taln not breaking has anything to do with him feeling late? He's never broken before, so how does him not breaking this time explain lateness? I don't follow the logic there. I've always interpreted the "too late" thing as just... the world is screwed in a different way this time and there's nothing he can do about it.

If Taln had broken and that had caused the Desolation he wouldn't be late. Of course he could have broken after the Desolation started but that'd be very weird if he broke short after him breaking was not needed, so I think he didn't break.

22 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Actually ... the body doesn't get described much. Shallan instead tends to describe the white carpet with red stains more than the actual body and that has always seemed weird to me. There may have been a body for a time, but she really goes on and on about the stained carpet and veers around there being a body (despite talking about other bodies she has found later in life)

In Row it's made clear there is a body and the eyes burned out

11 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

As for the voidspren.... I've never been quite sure what to make of them. I don't think Ulim's presence implies much. He was there before the Everstorm too--heck, he was even around before Shallan killed her mother--so I don't think there's any basis to link Ulim's arrival with the Oathpact that strongly? Nale knows exactly who Ulim is when they meet on the night of Gavilar's assassination, but he doesn't say, "WTF, how are you here? Did Taln break?" I'm under the impression that Voidspren have been able to escape from Braize all along. It's just... hard I guess?

Your right, Shallan killed her mother the same month Szeth killed Galinar (Tanat 1167) which is a few months after Ulim first appeared

Edited March 4, 2021 by mathiau

[LewsTherinTelescope]

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

He was there before the Everstorm too

According to Sja-anat, the Everstorm's been building in Shadesmar for centuries. He might've come through there.

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Nale knows exactly who Ulim is when they meet on the night of Gavilar's assassination, but he doesn't say, "WTF, how are you here? Did Taln break?"

Nale also tries to deny that the Everstorm granting forms of power is proof of Voidspren getting off Braize, so....

He probably figured Ulim had somehow hung around past the end of the Desolation and hid, as he tries to claim happened with the singers in Edgedancer. Nale's not particularly logical when it comes to the topic of signs of a Desolation.

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

But if that's the case again Ulim is lying because the bringing the thing into the Physical Realm was irrelevant to starting the Return.

Bringing the Fused through into a single point in the Cognitive probably isn't very useful. They can't take bodies (presumably, may not be correct), and they have to walk everywhere. It's probably kinda hard to carry out a Desolation in that state.

Also, slaveform singers might not be able to open themselves up to a Fused, anyway. So the Everstorm is required for a proper Desolation either way.

44 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

so I don't think there's any basis to link Ulim's arrival with the Oathpact that strongly?

He talks about how they were trapped on Braize and the Unmade had to go without them during the False Desolation, and Pattern says Voidspren getting through was a sign the Oathpact was no longer working right. So both the Voidspren and normal spren believe the Voidspren are ordinarily trapped.

Edited March 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+mdross81]

14 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

According to Sja-anat, the Everstorm's been building in Shadesmar for centuries. He might've come through there.

Bringing the Fused through into a single point in the Cognitive probably isn't very useful. They can't take bodies (presumably, may not be correct), and they have to walk everywhere. It's probably kinda hard to carry out a Desolation in that state.

He talks about how they were trapped on Braize and the Unmade had to go without them during the False Desolation, and Pattern says Voidspren getting through was a sign the Oathpact was no longer working right. So both the Voidspren and normal spren believe the Voidspren are ordinarily trapped.

 

58 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

As for the voidspren.... I've never been quite sure what to make of them. I don't think Ulim's presence implies much. He was there before the Everstorm too--heck, he was even around before Shallan killed her mother--so I don't think there's any basis to link Ulim's arrival with the Oathpact that strongly? Nale knows exactly who Ulim is when they meet on the night of Gavilar's assassination, but he doesn't say, "WTF, how are you here? Did Taln break?" I'm under the impression that Voidspren have been able to escape from Braize all along. It's just... hard I guess?

We know (or at least Ulim says) that Ulim came through the barrier storm in Shadesmar that blocks the way to Braize. Given that Ulim zips around in form of red lightning, and that lightning is ultimately the secret to collecting stormspren, I'm of the impression that lightning from the barrier storm is the mechanic by which Ulim came through.

So I don't think that Voidspren have always been able to circumvent the Oathpact. I think it became possible though once the barrier storm reach a sufficient size or strength, but the Voidspren needed a landing place (a gem) otherwise they would be pulled back:

Quote

"It worked," Venli whispered to Awe, clutching the stone. "It finally worked. The secret is lightning, Eshonai! It pulls them through. When I drew close enough right after a strike, I found hundreds of them. I snagged this one before the others returned to the other side...."

Venli was going out into highstorms to do this. But I think it's unlikely that a highstorm on its own would have been sufficient to pull a stormspren through. By this point in time, Odium had pulled the Everstorm close enough to the shattered plains that the stormspren in the Everstorm in Shadesmar could then hitch a ride on the highstorm's lightning when it came through. If getting a Voidspren through did, in fact, require a highstorm passing by, then you can see why it would have been such an ordeal to pull through Voidspren before the chunk of the barrier storm was broken off and moved. You'd have to get agents of Odium with gems ready on boats out in the middle of the ocean during a highstorm. Not super practical or efficient.

From this it seems clear that, at the very least, an Oathpact with Taln as the only Herald in Braize, was not sufficient to stop this method of Voidspren getting through to Roshar. Whether this method would have worked with all the Heralds on Braize is another question. I'm inclined to think that it still would have worked, but who knows, maybe having all the Heralds there would have somehow prevented the creation of the barrier storm in the first place.

[teknopathetic]

Ulim is famous as the one that escaped, so that implies what he did was unique and somewhat against the rules imposed. He isn't known as the one who broke the Oathpact, so I think it is safe to say what Ulim did was more espionage than overthrowing the Oathpact 

Edited March 4, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Chiberty]

23 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I'm also a bit skeptical that the Heralds can die and be sent to Braize? I'm not entirely confident in this because I'm not really sure WHAT would happen if they died.... If they could die in the past, in their prime, I suppose they are certainly able to die NOW. But their confidence is really weird to me... I'm particularly thinking of how little fear Jezrien had when Moash stabbed him, at first. The man had ZERO fear of dying. Could a Shardblade even kill a Herald so easily as Shallan killed her mom? And are we sure they would still get sent to Braize if they did die? The assumption that they could be killed by a Shardblade and that this would send them to Braize is super reasonable... But it does strike me as an assumption, I guess.

Kalak says in the prelude:

Quote

When he died, he was sent back, no choice.

 

[Master Silver]

I think the oath pact was altered in someway. Kalek was concerned that it wouldn't hold Odium, but they seemed to have altered their blades. Was Honor already dying at the time of the Prelude for TWOKs?

[Andy92]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Actually ... the body doesn't get described much. Shallan instead tends to describe the white carpet with red stains more than the actual body and that has always seemed weird to me. When she has a PTSD flashback, it is always about the stained carpet or the soul trapped in the safe. Why does Shallan see a glowing light and why she is convinced her mother's soul did something weird are not really fully explicable based on the events that occurred. Shallan knew Testament was not her mother's soul, so what gives?

There may have been a body for a time, but she really goes on and on about the stained carpet and veers around there being a body (despite talking about other bodies she has found later in life). We never do find out who moved the body of if people knew about the burned our eyes? It is a bit odd no one noticed she had her eyes seared. 

Good points. It’s been a while since I’ve read the exact scene closely, but the whole deal about her mother’s soul was always kind of confusing. 

I do think there’s something more to her mother that we don’t know, even if she wasn’t a Herald. 

[+mdross81]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

I think the oath pact was altered in someway. Kalek was concerned that it wouldn't hold Odium, but they seemed to have altered their blades. Was Honor already dying at the time of the Prelude for TWOKs?

It seems likely to me that there was some affirmative step taken to alter the oathpact, beyond just abandoning Taln. For the reasons I explain here:

As to your other question, I don't think we know for sure when Honor started dying.

We know the he was in the process of dying around the time of the Recreance and the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram and died relatively shortly thereafter. Those events took place thousands of years after Aharetiam.

So, I don't think he was already dying when the nine Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. Shard death is a longish process, but I don't think it's thousands of years long.

[Pumpkin_Bandit]

I’m not 100% convince by this theory but I love it, and the way you have clearly and excellently explained and laid out the information is the best I’ve seen. 
 

Shallan accidentally calling the desolation would be heartbreaking, and be an excellent Brandon style twist (See WoA).  

[Could Be Fire]

20 hours ago, mathiau said:

The simple answer doesn't explain why Taln (and Hoid) thinks he's late

Quote

Isn't it because Odium figured out a way to circumvent the Oathpact and sneak out the fused through the cognitive realm? Ulim working with Venli possibly as early as Gavilar's assassination, which is way before Taln appears on Roshar. 

So Taln is 'late' because Odium's forces managed to get of Roshar before he broke. 

I do think there's a possibility of shenanigans (maybe someone went to Braize to tell him to break? since he wasn't holding anything), but I'm not convinced about the whole Chana thing. 

[teknopathetic]

13 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I  guess I should have said that I disagree that there's any "weird questions" like this, as the OP calls them. It doesn't seem weird to me that Taln broke, that Shallan's mom could have happened to be associated with secret organizations, etc. etc. I don't see why Taln not breaking has anything to do with him feeling late? He's never broken before, so how does him not breaking this time explain lateness? I don't follow the logic there. I've always interpreted the "too late" thing as just... the world is screwed in a different way this time and there's nothing he can do about it.

Imagine you are torturing someone for 4,000 years and they never break. What is the new thing at year 4001 that actually makes the person crack? That's weird. If Taln did in fact crack, what's it that Odium found to use? And Odium seems MAAAAD. Odium trashed the Taln temples above all to the point where the Theylans even noticed it. Was Odium pissed at Taln for holding out for 4000 years, or was he mad Taln never broke at all?

I am saying that Taln breaking at year 4001 makes little sense to me. What if he never broke? Some people think the Everstorm somehow made Taln's torture moot, but I am saying what if another herald was sent to Braize (Shallan's mom) and then that Herald broke? The idea Taln broke at year 4001 is weird, and the idea the Everstorm made the Oathpact moot also doesn't exactly work. Taln came back before the Everstorm crossed into the physical, and since the ever storm took millennia to tug across Shadesmaar, I just don't buy that that the everstorm caused Taln to return.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

53 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Imagine you are torturing someone for 4,000 years and they never break. What is the new thing at year 4001 that actually makes the person crack? That's weird. If Taln did in fact crack, what's it that Odium found to use? And Odium seems MAAAAD. Odium trashed the Taln temples above all to the point where the Theylans even noticed it. Was Odium pissed at Taln for holding out for 4000 years, or was he mad Taln never broke at all?

I am saying that Taln breaking at year 4001 makes little sense to me. What if he never broke? Some people think the Everstorm somehow made Taln's torture moot, but I am saying what if another herald was sent to Braize (Shallan's mom) and then that Herald broke? The idea Taln broke at year 4001 is weird, and the idea the Everstorm made the Oathpact moot also doesn't exactly work. Taln came back before the Everstorm crossed into the physical, and since the ever storm took millennia to tug across Shadesmaar, I just don't buy that that the everstorm caused Taln to return.

 

Four thousand five hundred and one.

but yes, I whole heartedly agree.

[Jofwu]

10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Imagine you are torturing someone for 4,000 years and they never break. What is the new thing at year 4001 that actually makes the person crack? That's weird. If Taln did in fact crack, what's it that Odium found to use?

In the distant past, when the Heralds were fresh, there were centuries between Desolations. So maybe 300 years passed without anyone breaking and then suddenly one day in year 301 one of them couldn't take it anymore. Why would someone never break for 300 years and then crack in year 301? I don't know exactly.... But that's precisely what happened regardless.

So why shouldn't Taln, the strongest of the lot, do the same thing on the scale of millennia rather than centuries?

This just doesn't strike me as something so odd that I require an alternative explanation.

15 hours ago, Chiberty said:

Kalak says in the prelude:

Quote

When he died, he was sent back, no choice.

Yeah, I was saying that their apparent lack of caution makes me wonder if this mechanic stopped functioning when the Oathpact was adjusted to put the burden solely on Taln.

[teknopathetic]

31 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

In the distant past, when the Heralds were fresh, there were centuries between Desolations. So maybe 300 years passed without anyone breaking and then suddenly one day in year 301 one of them couldn't take it anymore. Why would someone never break for 300 years and then crack in year 301? I don't know exactly.... But that's precisely what happened 

In the distant past the heralds probably managed to play the hide and seek game a bit longer. They talk about how they’d hide on Briaze and if one person was caught, the other 9 could share the agony of the torture. Likely, Odium learned to check under the bed so to speak. 
 

Since desolations happened so quickly near the end, the game of hide and seek seems to have stopped dragging things out at all. It makes sense desolations were more drawn out at the start because Odium didn’t quite know how the heralds returning to Braise functioned, heralds took longer to find during hide and seek and that they could share the pain between them if someone was caught, that the heralds had more willpower near the start, and that Odium hadn’t quite figured out what would break the heralds he had found. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Roocifer]

I love this theory! I have been thinking along the same lines myself. I agree with most of it, but I do have one difference with your theory.

On 2/2/2021 at 1:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

WOB confirms heralds can have children though maybe it is difficult

The actual WOB says that Heralds are capable of procreation, but not necessarily in the traditional way. So my question is, in what way would that be? We know that Thaidakar is a Cognitive Shadow, and claims to be able to create an Avatar for himself to visit other worlds since he's bound to his system. So, my theory is that the way Heralds procreate is by making avatars of themselves.

Hence, Shallan would not be a biological child of Chanarach, but in fact is Chanarach's avatar!

[Bejarden]

Thaisakar doesn’t have an avatar Brandon said no

He was making it up

[The Unknown Ajah]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Thaisakar doesn’t have an avatar Brandon said no

He was making it up

Source?

[mathiau]

33 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

Source?

Here you go

Quote

FeatherWriter

I have to ask about using the word "avatar" for Thaidakar sending avatars... does Kelsier actually have anything resembling a real avatar or is he just using the word and lying through his teeth?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, he's mostly lying through his teeth. Basically — this is not canon, because I might come up with a better [idea] - but in my head, I have him with a large cloak with a Seon on top indicating his face [hosts laugh] It was something along those lines. He wants them to think that he is capable of getting to Roshar in a meaningful, physical way.

Spoiler! he can't get off Scadrial, and it's really annoying to him. At least by this point in the continuity, in fact a little past it, because the Wax & Wayne books...

*multiple people*

[Tangent where he forgets where in the timeline Wax & Wayne actually falls, and Chaos corrects him. Answer ends up being that it takes place after Stormlight 5, as he has usually said.]

Brandon Sanderson

As of the Alloy era, he is still unable to get off of Scadrial.

Chaos

Guess we'll learn about that in Era 3, if it's all Kelsier stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Era 3 will definitely involve some Kelsier stuff. Let's just say he's perturbed.

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

[apepi]

I like this theory. I always thought something was off, Taln was a good one(he kind of reminds me of Kaladin).

[NickHunter]

OMG. This is now canon for me. Shallan final truth is that she started the Final Desolation by killing her mother who is a Herald. So powerful. Also could fit with the deathrattle with the knife at the child neck with the child being Shallan. She hesitated and Shallan summoned a shardblade in defense.

[mathiau]

5 minutes ago, NickHunter said:

OMG. This is now canon for me. Shallan final truth is that she started the Final Desolation by killing her mother who is a Herald. So powerful. Also could fit with the deathrattle with the knife at the child neck with the child being Shallan. She hesitated and Shallan summoned a shardblade in defense.

This has just been proven wrong. Maybe Shallan's mother was Chana and child-Shallan thought she had called the new Desolation but she actually did not, the War of Reckoning and the Everstorm would still have happened without her.

[teknopathetic]

10 minutes ago, NickHunter said:

OMG. This is now canon for me. Shallan final truth is that she started the Final Desolation by killing her mother who is a Herald. So powerful. Also could fit with the deathrattle with the knife at the child neck with the child being Shallan. She hesitated and Shallan summoned a shardblade in defense.

Wow interesting. Not sure I believe it, but am open to it! 

Edited March 6, 2021 by teknopathetic

[apepi]

1 hour ago, NickHunter said:

OMG. This is now canon for me. Shallan final truth is that she started the Final Desolation by killing her mother who is a Herald. So powerful. Also could fit with the deathrattle with the knife at the child neck with the child being Shallan. She hesitated and Shallan summoned a shardblade in defense.

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.

This might fit well, especially the "and with it gain us further breath to draw." part makes a lot of sense. As the oathpact was allowing them to live keeping Odium locked up, but if she died, then the pact would fall and the 'breath' would be gone. (it makes a lot more sense than the Dalinar vs baby idea, lol)

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

This has just been proven wrong. Maybe Shallan's mother was Chana and child-Shallan thought she had called the new Desolation but she actually did not, the War of Reckoning and the Everstorm would still have happened without her.

What has been proven wrong?