[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[teknopathetic]

6 hours ago, Kahlani said:

Also, is it believed that Taln broke? Or did he return to warn that the Everstorm was coming? I really like the idea that if Chanarach was killed and returned to Braize, that she would have broken and not Taln, but can’t remember if it is implied that Taln’s return triggered the Desolation or the Everstorm itself?

Now that Shallan is with Kelek, perhaps he will mention something that could be a clue as to whether Shallan’s mother was a Herald...

 

This is debated. I was under the impression that the oath pact is NOT broken, and therefor the Herald give-in rule still applied. The Everstorm didn't change the oath pact, but instead allowed the Fused to respawn during this desolation. If the desolation were to end, everyone would be sent back to Braize until the next Herald broke. 

The Everstom was a tricky way to circumvent the Oathpact DURING a desolation, but I still think the Oathpact works. Maybe this worked because the Oathpact is so weak? We are told repeatedly that the Oathpact is weak but still active. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau]

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

This is debated. I was under the impression that the oath pact is NOT broken, and therefor the Herald give-in rule still applied. The Everstorm didn't change the oath pact, but instead allowed the Fused to respawn during this desolation. If the desolation were to end, everyone would be sent back to Braize until the next Herald broke. 

The Everstom was a tricky way to circumvent the Oathpact DURING a desolation, but I still think the Oathpact works. Maybe this worked because the Oathpact is so weak? We are told repeatedly that the Oathpact is weak but still active. 

Currently the Oathpact is shattered (though Ishar think it's fixable) but we don't know since when

[teknopathetic]

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Currently the Oathpact is shattered (though Ishar think it's fixable) but we don't know since when

When has anyone said it is shattered? Aren't we told repeatedly that the Oathpact is "weakened" but still functional in some way?

From the Coppermind:
While the Oathpact still remains,^[8] how much is unknown. Ishar implied that there is a way to reset the Oathpact when he shortly regained sanity. He instructed Dalinar to meet him in Shinovar and let a Radiant swear an Ideal near him to proceed.^[9]

Edited February 16, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

This is debated. I was under the impression that the oath pact is NOT broken, and therefor the Herald give-in rule still applied. The Everstorm didn't change the oath pact, but instead allowed the Fused to respawn during this desolation. If the desolation were to end, everyone would be sent back to Braize until the next Herald broke. 

The Everstom was a tricky way to circumvent the Oathpact DURING a desolation, but I still think the Oathpact works. Maybe this worked because the Oathpact is so weak? We are told repeatedly that the Oathpact is weak but still active. 

They could come back, even in past desolations, the Everstorm prevents the Heralds from sealing them away.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Frustration

[mathiau]

22 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

When has anyone said it is shattered? Aren't we told repeatedly that the Oathpact is "weakened" but still functional in some way?

From the Coppermind:
While the Oathpact still remains,^[8] how much is unknown. Ishar implied that there is a way to reset the Oathpact when he shortly regained sanity. He instructed Dalinar to meet him in Shinovar and let a Radiant swear an Ideal near him to proceed.^[9]

Kelek wrote so in the epigraphs

Quote

"Jezrien is gone. Despite being all the way out here in Lasting Integrity, I felt him being ripped away. The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent. And with further investigation, I know the truth of what happened to him. It felt like death at first, and I think that is what it ultimately became."

Quote

"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last. I should welcome the same. I do not. I fear you."

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Kelek wrote so in the epigraphs

I don't think Kelek is correct.

From Wobs it seems Kelek is mistaken, but I admit this is a point of contention between Ishar and Kelek. 

[Kyn]

As far as the Oathpact being caput, we have several other mentions:

In RoW ch. 17, Ash (who admittedly doesn’t seem very knowledgeable about the Oathpact) thinks it’s broken:

Quote

Jasnah nodded, showing no sign of annoyance. “But the Oathpact no longer functions?”

“It’s broken,” Ash said. “Done, shattered, upended. They killed my father a year ago. Permanently, somehow. We all felt it.” She looked directly at Navani, as if having seen the reverence in her eyes. The next words came with a sneer. “We can do nothing for you now. There is no more Oathpact.”

When Dalinar looks at the Oathpact, he sees details suggesting the Oathpact isn’t shattered even though the Stormfather thinks it is. But no, it’s not functional. One line of it conceivably could be, but isn’t; the others are written off, especially the one that is broken.

RoW ch. 47:

Quote

“I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.”

A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind. It was broken. Even before Jezrien’s death, they shattered it by what they did long ago.

“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”

So maybe it wouldn’t be accurate to say the Oathpact’s magic is shattered, but if the spirits that fuel that magic are broken, the Oathpact itself is effectively as shattered as they are and will remain nonfunctional.

What I want to know, then, is exactly why the other lines are impotent. I had assumed that whatever was done to redirect the Oathpact to solely rely upon (and trap) Taln weakened the other connections. But if maybe this weakening was how Taln was left as the sole spirit powering the Oathpact, could it be that the other strands’ connections weakened every time one of the Heralds broke?

Of course, if the assertion that Taln never broke is correct, then that means the Oathpact is broken even if we don’t consider it shattered. Because even though one of its parts remains sufficiently intact to have let the Oathpact function, it eventually stopped functioning anyway. A device that has all its pieces but can’t hold a charge is just as broken as one that fell apart. 

[teknopathetic]

24 minutes ago, Kyn said:

 

Of course, if the assertion that Taln never broke is correct, then that means the Oathpact is broken even if we don’t consider it shattered. Because even though one of its parts remains sufficiently intact to have let the Oathpact function, it eventually stopped functioning anyway. A device that has all its pieces but can’t hold a charge is just as broken as one that fell apart. 

Thanks for researching all that!
 

My theory is that Chana was the herald who insta-broke, and that Taln never did. This still means the oath pact was working, but that Chana had absolutely zero intention of holding out to torture.

So when Chana was killed by Shallan, she broke her oath immediately, and then whatever happens so Heralds on Braize at that point happens. Then Odium uses that moment to turn on his storm as was predicted successfully by Odium and Renarin. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Retrac]

So here is an interesting thought. How would the reunion between Shallan and her mom go if this was true?

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Retrac said:

So here is an interesting thought. How would the reunion between Shallan and her mom go if this was true?

Poorly. Very poorly.

[teknopathetic]

On 2021-02-03 at 6:59 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Also. We know all the heralds are INSANELY strong and good at fighting

she could probably walk onto the shattered planes and take one from a shardbearer without any trouble 

Chana got sniped by a surprise shard blade to the heart. As they say, a stray arrow can take down anyone.

[Bejarden]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Chana got sniped by a surprise shard blade to the heart. As they say, a stray arrow can take down anyone.

I have no clue what you are saying please explain

[mathiau]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

I have no clue what you are saying please explain

I'm not sure how to make it clearer, she got hit by Shallan's blade at a moment she didn't expect and died

[+En-priestess]

Embracing this theory of Chana as Shallan’s mother, my mind has gone full imaginative speculation. So... One thing that has always stood out to me from The Way of Kings is that when Jasnah is considering Shallan’s wardship, she asks what works of philosophy she’s read and Shallan references Nohadon as one of the few she has. This always seemed strange to me considering how frowned upon and relatively unknown it appears to be in the rest of society, with its talk of the ancient Radiants and dark eyes being higher than light eyes. And when Wit meets young Shallan and asks her to imagine her perfect life she imagines her mother teaching her philosophy. Now I’m imagining a whole arc where in the past Chana and Nohadon were close, possibly lovers, and engaged in philosophical discussions together - as a king and Radiant, and possibly Bondsmith, I don’t think it’s a stretch that they would have known one another. And so she keeps a copy of his works at home in Jah Keved and shares her passion for philosophy with her daughter, hence Shallan’s curious choice of books.

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, Kahlani said:

Embracing this theory of Chana as Shallan’s mother, my mind has gone full imaginative speculation. So... One thing that has always stood out to me from The Way of Kings is that when Jasnah is considering Shallan’s wardship, she asks what works of philosophy she’s read and Shallan references Nohadon as one of the few she has. This always seemed strange to me considering how frowned upon and relatively unknown it appears to be in the rest of society, with its talk of the ancient Radiants and dark eyes being higher than light eyes. And when Wit meets young Shallan and asks her to imagine her perfect life she imagines her mother teaching her philosophy. Now I’m imagining a whole arc where in the past Chana and Nohadon were close, possibly lovers, and engaged in philosophical discussions together - as a king and Radiant, and possibly Bondsmith, I don’t think it’s a stretch that they would have known one another. And so she keeps a copy of his works at home in Jah Keved and shares her passion for philosophy with her daughter, hence Shallan’s curious choice of books.

I had assumed he was a Windrunner from his big jump

[Raphaborn]

I don't know if I agree with everything, but Chanarach as Shallan's mother is now my headcanon. Amazing.

[WandererNearby]

I skimmed this thread and didn't see the obvious answer to question of the color of Shallan's mother eyes: the painter got it wrong. My understanding is that the painting do actually exist in world and thus have a Rosharan painter. I know that Brandon has said that the paintings are the equivalent to Sistine Chapel paintings and those painters of the portraits didn't see the prophets and apostles so probably got a few details like nose size, eye color or whether ear lobes are attached wrong. Thus, the Rosharan painter heard about her appearance including her outfit and eye color and the history just got a few details wrong but was mostly right.  

 

Edit: obvious answer to me. I don't want to accidentally insult anyone or come across as condescending. Apologies to anyone if I did. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by DougTheRug

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

I skimmed this thread and didn't see the obvious answer to question of the color of Shallan's mother eyes: the painter got it wrong. My understanding is that the painting do actually exist in world and thus have a Rosharan painter. I know that Brandon has said that the paintings are the equivalent to Sistine Chapel paintings and those painters of the portraits didn't see the prophets and apostles so probably got a few details like nose size, eye color or whether ear lobes are attached wrong. Thus, the Rosharan painter heard about her appearance including her outfit and eye color and the history just got a few details wrong but was mostly right. 

It was actually said at one point, by the same person who brought the eyes being blue and not green in the first place because why not.

Quote

Edit: obvious answer to me. I don't want to accidentally insult anyone or come across as condescending. Apologies to anyone if I did. 

None taken

[teknopathetic]

There are also drops to make an eye colour darker, so maybe there are drops to change blue to green or green to blue? Seems like something a Herald might do to be a little less blatantly themselves. As far as I know we dont have drops that do this in real life, so who knows how that is working. And again, it is unclear what Chana's eye-color would be after not using stormlight or a shardblade for so long (if she indeed cannot use stormlight). 

Plus on a meta level, Shallan is the only confirmed character to know about the drops now, so that could have been a breadcrumb leading up to this reveal. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Kyn]

7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

There are also drops to make an eye colour darker, so maybe there are drops to change blue to green or green to blue? Seems like something a Herald might do to be a little less blatantly themselves. As far as I know we dont have drops that do this in real life, so who knows how that is working.

We do have drops that darken eyes in real life, something used to treat glaucoma. Prostaglandin. I don’t think it’s very consistent though, and it should take a long time to happen. But increasing melanocyte concentration in the eye through something similar or depositing dark pigments with something more fantastical would be more plausible than lightening or changing to another light color somehow.

[perfectlybalanced]

There is one big thing about this theory that either makes it not work out or it leads into something else that would be really cool. What happened to Chanarach's Honor Blade? If she had died and was sent back to Braize like Taln was at the end of the previous desolation, then I believe her honor blade would have disappeared from Shinovar and gone with her. In a Taravangian interlude in Words of Radiance, Taravangian "lies" to Szeth about another missing honor blade among the seven remaining honor blades. This means before Szeth left Shinovar there were two honor blades that were missing as when he left he took Jezrien's honor blade with him. One of these of course would have been Taln's blade. We could assume that the other missing one is Nale's honor blade. This would indicate that Chanarach's blade was still there and hence she couldn't have died and went back to Braize (if this is the case then I am really sad because I loved this theory). 

The OTHER possibility is that Nale hadn't yet retrieved his honor blade before Szeth left Shinovar as he could have still grabbed it well before the beginning of the Way of Kings (prologue time period) without Szeth's knowledge. In this case, Taravangian's lie about an Honor blade going missing is actually a hint that this is the case and the missing blade is Nale's while Chanarach's blade had already gone missing during Szeth's time in Shinovar which I believe lines up with when Shallan kills her mom. If this had happened though, then the ones guarding the honor blades (Szeth's family) may have faced punishment, tried to hide the fact the blade went missing, or perhaps have been part of the impetuous for Szeth making the claim that the Radiants and the Desolations had returned or would return. Brandon could be saving this big reveal to be in Szeth's flashbacks, while strategically not letting any of Szeth's current viewpoints mention Chanarach's missing blade and instead just focusing on Radiants returning. Anyways, this would be really cool, but I feel like Brandon would have foreshadowed this a bit more if it were the case. 

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, perfectlybalanced said:

There is one big thing about this theory that either makes it not work out or it leads into something else that would be really cool. What happened to Chanarach's Honor Blade? If she had died and was sent back to Braize like Taln was at the end of the previous desolation, then I believe her honor blade would have disappeared from Shinovar and gone with her. In a Taravangian interlude in Words of Radiance, Taravangian "lies" to Szeth about another missing honor blade among the seven remaining honor blades. This means before Szeth left Shinovar there were two honor blades that were missing as when he left he took Jezrien's honor blade with him. One of these of course would have been Taln's blade. We could assume that the other missing one is Nale's honor blade. This would indicate that Chanarach's blade was still there and hence she couldn't have died and went back to Braize (if this is the case then I am really sad because I loved this theory). 

The OTHER possibility is that Nale hadn't yet retrieved his honor blade before Szeth left Shinovar as he could have still grabbed it well before the beginning of the Way of Kings (prologue time period) without Szeth's knowledge. In this case, Taravangian's lie about an Honor blade going missing is actually a hint that this is the case and the missing blade is Nale's while Chanarach's blade had already gone missing during Szeth's time in Shinovar which I believe lines up with when Shallan kills her mom. If this had happened though, then the ones guarding the honor blades (Szeth's family) may have faced punishment, tried to hide the fact the blade went missing, or perhaps have been part of the impetuous for Szeth making the claim that the Radiants and the Desolations had returned or would return. Brandon could be saving this big reveal to be in Szeth's flashbacks, while strategically not letting any of Szeth's current viewpoints mention Chanarach's missing blade and instead just focusing on Radiants returning. Anyways, this would be really cool, but I feel like Brandon would have foreshadowed this a bit more if it were the case. 

By the Time of Gavilar's assasination Szeth had been truthless for some time.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

By the Time of Gavilar's assasination Szeth had been truthless for some time.

Szeth cannot have been Truthless before Taravangian's genius day which is very unlikely to have happened before the serious signs of the True Desolation which in or theory just means Chana's death

58 minutes ago, perfectlybalanced said:

If she had died and was sent back to Braize like Taln was at the end of the previous desolation, then I believe her honor blade would have disappeared from Shinovar and gone with her.

Chana unbounded her blades 4500 years ago and the Oathpact is kind of not including her (but kind of is, what they did at the Last Desolation is weird) so I think their blade wouldn't come back with them

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Szeth cannot have been Truthless before Taravangian's genius day which is very unlikely to have happened before the serious signs of the True Desolation which in or theory just means Chana's death

Yes he could, we have no evidence to the contrary

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yes he could, we have no evidence to the contrary

Quote

"Ah but they were left behind. It is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where? Set off. Obvious. Realization like apricity. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon? "

Floorboard 17: Paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first

(bold and spaces added by me)

If there already had been a Truthless he would not have said it like that