[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[KSub]

15 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I think the burden refers to the pain bond. When the Heralds played hide and seek on Braize, they were able to share the pain felt by anyone of them being tortured. When Taln heads to Braize that last time, he didn’t have anyone to lean on during the torture. 

I think the burden is the fact that Taln is left alone to carry the oathpact. The nine are the other nine heralds.

We know the heralds still share some connection since Shallash is aware of jezriens death. I think that Ishar changed the connections so that they were sort of one way. Taln feels what they do but not the reverse. 

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, KSub said:

I think the burden is the fact that Taln is left alone to carry the oathpact. The nine are the other nine heralds.

We know the heralds still share some connection since Shallash is aware of jezriens death. I think that Ishar changed the connections so that they were sort of one way. Taln feels what they do but not the reverse. 

Oh, I meant they are one and the same, but now it is even worse as he cant share/distribute the pain of being tortured to try and last longer 

[Andy92]

Overall, I like this theory, but I have some hang ups with it. Do we know what happens to a Herald’s body when they die to a Shardblade and return to Braize? Does the body remain while the soul moves or should the whole body have disappeared when Shallan killed her mother if she was a Herald? I know they’re Cognitive Shadows but I wasn’t sure how that part of their return to Braize worked. 

[danex]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:38 PM, mathiau said:

Note that neither Ash nor Nale seemed affected by Radiants swearing oaths near them

Nale breaks down in front of Lift in Edgedancer right after she swore her oath. And while Ash usually seems pretty sane already, she seemed more so when Dalinar opened Honor’s perpendicularity. More humble. Less broken.

I think it’s safe to say that all Heralds are affected by the Radiant/Perpendicularity effect.

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Dannex said:

Nale breaks down in front of Lift in Edgedancer right after she swore her oath. And while Ash usually seems pretty sane already, she seemed more so when Dalinar opened Honor’s perpendicularity. More humble. Less broken.

I think it’s safe to say that all Heralds are affected by the Radiant/Perpendicularity effect.

The Perpendicularity has no effect

[danex]

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

The Perpendicularity has no effect

?
Taln became completely lucid for a moment when Dalinar opened it at the battle of Thaylen field. I’d say that’s an effect.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Dannex said:

?
Taln became completely lucid for a moment when Dalinar opened it at the battle of Thaylen field. I’d say that’s an effect.

After RoW, it seems more likely that that was him swearing his Ideal, which occurred essentially simultaneously.

[mathiau]

42 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

After RoW, it seems more likely that that was him swearing his Ideal, which occurred essentially simultaneously.

That and the Perpendicularity had no effect on Nale or Ishar in RoW

[KSub]

As others have said it was Dalinar swearing the oath that gave them that lucidity.

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

The Perpendicularity has no effect

 

[teknopathetic]

I really want the Chana theory to be true because that makes Shallan’s inability to admit the truth so much more plausible and relatable (at least to my own psychology)  

Sure, someone might repress killing both of their parents in self defence. I get that. But I also get knowing deep down that what you did was the right thing. Shallan knows what she did with her parents was the right thing. It doesn’t seem that killing her parents is as truly awful as killing Testament. And even then, did Shallan even know she was killing Testament and just not being friends anymore? Maybe depending on what Testament told Shallan. But even then, it sort of makes sense with what a kid might need to do in that situation (especially if it is "just a spren" that is "immortal"). I am not convinced Shallan really knew what she had done until she learned what Deadeyes are and how they are made. 

But killing a herald and ending the world? And knowing your mother/herald was 100% for sure being mercilessly tortured by voidbringers? Because of you? That's concrete. That is something a kid understands. That’s something that would leave a person “unable to laugh”. Who wouldn’t be insensate at that? Imagine being told over and over by relations that your mother was in a better place now, but you KNEW that wasn’t the case. And not only that, but you aren't even being punished. Your father is taking the blame for what you did, and you can see how much everyone you love despises him for it, and they dont even know the extent of the atrocity! 

And then realizing your mother was a god and realizing a god HATED you and tried to kill you for the good of the world. Each time someone praises the heralds, Shallan has to repress the knowledge that a herald despised Shallan and wanted her dead for being “one of them”. How do you deal with that? Devote yourself more to the church? Does that ever go well for “abominations?” 

Can she take comfort in her father? Her father is devolving into an evil man, and that evil man loves ONLY her. He is driven to such rage - to such horrors - to protect her. Her? She is vile and one of the most evil people in the world. Her father's psychotic devotion is just further proof of how wretched she is. 

Growing up any moment of joy would be ruined by a rogue thought of her mother being scalded, skewered, or worse. Any comfort at “a better place” would be a punch to the gut. How could you ever truly enjoy your life when you knew your life had cost the world, a god, and your mother so much? This is why Shallan says over and over that she does not deserve joy or happiness. She’s evil. She was told so by a herald and by her mother, and because of Shallan each day her mother is burned alive. One day her mother will break, and the world will end, and everyone will know it was Shallan’s fault  

How could she not repress that? I would. I get that lie and likely would support repressing it myself.  

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Serack]

I'm starting to think that this fits well enough that I'm almost disappointed that I learned it here instead of in text.  

I spent so much time on WOTmania that much of the last 3 books of that series were spoiled for me.  

[KSub]

2 hours ago, Serack said:

I'm starting to think that this fits well enough that I'm almost disappointed that I learned it here instead of in text.  

I spent so much time on WOTmania that much of the last 3 books of that series were spoiled for me.  

If its any consolation @teknopatheticis probably wrong. 

 

[teknopathetic]

On 2/9/2021 at 9:01 AM, Dannex said:

?
Taln became completely lucid for a moment when Dalinar opened it at the battle of Thaylen field. I’d say that’s an effect.

But Taln also became lucid when Shallan used lightweaving in the sanitarium. 

[KSub]

16 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But Taln also became lucid when Shallan used lightweaving in the sanitarium. 

I don't have the book so I couldn't read through this section but I checked tors reread of RoW and I could see this passage two ways.

1. Taln is crazy-crazy. When he sees Shallan lightweave it doesn't make him lucid as we've seen the heralds do after a radiant swears an oath. But he does have the cognizance to think 'its a radiant, I need to do something.'

2. Shallan speaks a truth a truth to fix her bond with Testament. It's not like swearing a new truth so it doesn't have the same effect on Taln.

Like I said, I don't have the book so I can't go through the text to see if she might have spoke a truth so don't tear me apart.

[mathiau]

7 minutes ago, KSub said:

I don't have the book so I couldn't read through this section but I checked tors reread of RoW and I could see this passage two ways.

1. Taln is crazy-crazy. When he sees Shallan lightweave it doesn't make him lucid as we've seen the heralds do after a radiant swears an oath. But he does have the cognizance to think 'its a radiant, I need to do something.'

2. Shallan speaks a truth a truth to fix her bond with Testament. It's not like swearing a new truth so it doesn't have the same effect on Taln.

Like I said, I don't have the book so I can't go through the text to see if she might have spoke a truth so don't tear me apart.

I think you're confusing Taln and Kelek as well as RoW and WoR.

[Kyn]

Are you talking about the way Taln reacted to Shallan’s Lightweaving in Words of Radiance ch. 63?

Quote

Shallan walked to the door. By now, her absence in the other room would have been noticed. She should get back and give her lie, of seeking a drink for her parched throat. First, though, she’d want to put back on the ardent disguise. She sucked in some Stormlight, then breathed out, using the still-fresh memory of the ardent to create—

“Aaaaaaaah!” The madman leaped to his feet, screaming. He lurched for her, moving with incredible speed. As Shallan yelped in surprise, he grabbed her and shoved her out of her cloud of Stormlight. The image fell apart, evaporating, and the madman smashed her up against the wall, his eyes wide, his breathing ragged. He searched her face with frantic eyes, pupils darting back and forth.

Shallan trembled, breath catching.

Ten heartbeats.

“One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember . . . He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But . . . When . . .”

He stumbled back from her, hand to his head. Her Shardblade dropped into her hands, but she no longer appeared to need it. The man turned his back to her, walked to his bed, then lay down and curled up.

Shallan inched forward, and found he was back to whispering the same things as before. She dismissed the Blade.

Before this, Taln was just sitting like a lump, repeating his Desolation-warning spiel.

[KSub]

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I think you're confusing Taln and Kelek as well as RoW and WoR.

WoR, RoW. Same thing lol. No, you are correct. However it is Taln in the asylum that shallan and iyatil go to see.

16 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Are you talking about the way Taln reacted to Shallan’s Lightweaving in Words of Radiance ch. 63?

Before this, Taln was just sitting like a lump, repeating his Desolation-warning spiel.

Thanks for the reference. It doesn't sound as though she does anything. He does seem to have a brief glimmer of lucidity, although he still seems a little off. It feels to me like he might be having a non-magical moment of clarity.

[mathiau]

Just now, KSub said:

WoR, RoW. Same thing lol. No, you are correct. However it is Taln in the asylum that shallan and iyatil go to see.

Shallan doesn't swear any truth at this moment. Her truths are currently "I'm affraid", "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother", for Pattern at least, it's unkown how it works for Testament, if it even works at all

[KSub]

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Shallan doesn't swear any truth at this moment. Her truths are currently "I'm affraid", "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother", for Pattern at least, it's unkown how it works for Testament, if it even works at all

Agreed and I wouldn't say anything that happens in that moment could qualify.

[Subvisual Haze]

Fantastic theory!

Chana should have "respawned" on Roshar around the same time Taln did, if so I wonder what she has been getting up to since then.  Her honorblade also should have followed her back to Braize and then Roshar, and it going missing should have been noticed and reacted to by the Shin Stone Shamans (assuming Ishar hadn't messed with their heads yet).

Liss has been popularly theorized to be Chana in disguise.  With Chana potentially reassigned, I now wonder if Liss isn't Vedel.  The physical description of Liss doesn't give us much to work with (curvy body, long loose dark hair, Veden skin), but that would match pretty well with the portrait we have of Vedel.

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Fantastic theory!

Chana should have "respawned" on Roshar around the same time Taln did, if so I wonder what she has been getting up to since then.  Her honorblade also should have followed her back to Braize and then Roshar, and it going missing should have been noticed and reacted to by the Shin Stone Shamans (assuming Ishar hadn't messed with their heads yet).

If this theory is true Chana would have respawned significantly before Taln did, since he said he was late. I'd bet on slightly before the moment Ulim met Venli

Quote

Liss has been popularly theorized to be Chana in disguise.  With Chana potentially reassigned, I now wonder if Liss isn't Vedel.  The physical description of Liss doesn't give us much to work with (curvy body, long loose dark hair, Veden skin), but that would match pretty well with the portrait we have of Vedel.

On one hand I like this theory, especially since the Heralds with the attributes of Loving and Healing becoming an assassin fit perfectly the "corruption of the attributes" hypothesis, on the other hand

Quote

Argent

Now that we have canon art of Ishar, Shalash, Jezrien, and Vedel, what Rosharan nationalities would you say they resemble the most?

Brandon Sanderson

Jezrien and Vedel would be seen as Alethi, most likely. Shalash would be seen as Azish, while Ishar would be seen as Shin, probably.

NightWillReign

Wait, but if Ishar looks like he’s from Shinovar, how did the Tukkari accept him as the God-Priest?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO--but is a question you're supposed to be asking.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 20, 2018)

Of course she could have some weak shapeshifting abilities, but there's no evidence of that

[teknopathetic]

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

On one hand I like this theory, especially since the Heralds with the attributes of Loving and Healing becoming an assassin fit perfectly the "corruption of the attributes" hypothesis, on the other hand

Chana's attributes are Brave and Obedient.

Loving and Healing = Vedel
 

Edit: Whoops, got confused. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau]

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Chana's attributes are Brave and Obedient.

Loving and Healing = Vedel

I know, Subvisual was saying that Liss might be Vedel

[teknopathetic]

Whooops. My bad 

Edited February 14, 2021 by teknopathetic

[+En-priestess]

Omg this theory blew my mind. I think it’s definitely possible. It would explain why Shallan’s mother hasn’t been named, why there are secret societies, unmade and spren all connected to her family, why Shallan still has Radiant to protect her from this even bigger truth... I really love the idea that Radiant embodies Shallan’s memory of her mother. Also the connection to the Skybreakers would make a lot of sense since she would know Nale personally.
 

Chanarach’s attributes are brave and obedient, and one of the very, very few tidbits that we get from Shallan’s flashbacks about her mother is that her mother was brave. Maybe not strong evidence but it’s something, especially since this is one of the only things we get told about her.
 

Quote

What would it be like, to be brave like Heleran? As her mother had been. 
Her mother...

 

Question: what does this mean for Shallan’s brothers then? Are they her children too? As children of a Herald, are they more invested? And what implications would this mean for Helaran’s death?

Also, is it believed that Taln broke? Or did he return to warn that the Everstorm was coming? I really like the idea that if Chanarach was killed and returned to Braize, that she would have broken and not Taln, but can’t remember if it is implied that Taln’s return triggered the Desolation or the Everstorm itself?

Now that Shallan is with Kelek, perhaps he will mention something that could be a clue as to whether Shallan’s mother was a Herald...