[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[StanLemon]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:51 PM, Frustration said:

Later Dalinar shows that all living Heralds, (except maybe one depending on how you read it) are still connected to the Oathpact.

To elaborate on Frustration's comment, Dalinar saw the Connections of the Oathpact and the Heralds to each other. One Connection was vibrant and strong (presumably Taln), one was broken (I personally assume Jezren), and the others were weak but still present. 

[+En-priestess]

Could Shallan’s mother’s soul be in the seon box? We know the Davars had one and Shallan played with it as a child. If it can hold a seon, aka a cognitive shadow, why not a Herald?

Gives a whole new meaning to her father keeping her mother’s glowing soul in a box…

(Edit: in chapter 64 of WoR, Shallan gets frightened in the cell where she sees Taln and swears by saying “mother’s soul”, just as people swear by the Heralds. E.g. Ishar’s soul, Ash’s eyes… Chana’s soul?)

Edited October 26, 2021 by En-priestess

[+Oltux72]

On 19.10.2021 at 3:26 PM, Frustration said:

I wouldn't say lied, Shallan had sworn more Oaths than Kal, just not to Pattern.

Technically we should probably say that a Nahel bond is at a certain oath and not the Knight Radiant.

It is also possible that Shallan's bond to Testament was at a higher oath than Kaladin's bond to Sylphrena. Oaths uttered after she forsook Testament may or may not count for that bond.

[Ashspren]

On 10/26/2021 at 2:34 AM, En-priestess said:

Could Shallan’s mother’s soul be in the seon box? We know the Davars had one and Shallan played with it as a child. If it can hold a seon, aka a cognitive shadow, why not a Herald?

This is really interesting to me—it would also provide a deeper layer to Pattern communicating with Hoid through the seon. If Pattern is using Chana’s soul to communicate, does this imply that the Cryptics still have an interest in the Davar family, beyond just Shallan’s Radiant status? 

Also, if Chana’s soul is serving a similar function to a seon, I’m wondering how much of their Intents must line up. Is there something about Chana’s character or her Radiant order (the Dustbringers) that makes her particularly linked to Devotion? 

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

This is really interesting to me—it would also provide a deeper layer to Pattern communicating with Hoid through the seon. If Pattern is using Chana’s soul to communicate, does this imply that the Cryptics still have an interest in the Davar family, beyond just Shallan’s Radiant status? 

Also, if Chana’s soul is serving a similar function to a seon, I’m wondering how much of their Intents must line up. Is there something about Chana’s character or her Radiant order (the Dustbringers) that makes her particularly linked to Devotion? 

I don't think a non-seon would even be capable of linking into that system. At least not with the resources the Ghostbloods, or the Devar family have access to.

[+En-priestess]

8 hours ago, Ashspren said:

This is really interesting to me—it would also provide a deeper layer to Pattern communicating with Hoid through the seon. If Pattern is using Chana’s soul to communicate, does this imply that the Cryptics still have an interest in the Davar family, beyond just Shallan’s Radiant status? 

 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't think a non-seon would even be capable of linking into that system. At least not with the resources the Ghostbloods, or the Devar family have access to.

Yeah I don't think that Chana's soul would be in the same seon box that we saw in Rhythm of War, or that the box would enable the soul to act as a seon - seons communicate without the boxes on Sel, so the box just seems to be a way of containing the cognitive shadow. And if a seon could be held in that box, I think a Herald's soul could be too as they're both cognitive shadows. And Shallan always says that her mother's glowing soul is in a box... It's a bit of a whacky thought-theory but I don't think anything is too wild to think of when it comes to the Davar family now.

[teknopathetic]

I wish we had seen a herald return to Braize on screen. Maybe they do emit some light/investiture as they pass on to Braize? 

[Bort]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:57 PM, mathiau said:

The WoB just says Chana was seen in WoK or WoR, I find it unlikely she's Liss since she has a shardblade and Chana's honourblade should still be in Shinovar but these two can't be the only red haired women we've seen in these two books.

Well, this could explain where the Testament blade is..

[Benkinsky]

On 16.11.2021 at 7:18 AM, En-priestess said:

I think a Herald's soul could be too as they're both cognitive shadows.

 

On 26.10.2021 at 11:34 AM, En-priestess said:

If it can hold a seon, aka a cognitive shadow, why not a Herald?

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Using Zahel's System, Spren are Type I invested/Investiture-Entities, Cognitive Shadows are Type II. Seon are definitely Type I. Seon aren't cognitive shadows, they're essentially the same thing as Spren they just aren't Spren since they're from Sel and not Roshar.

Both them, Spren and CS are pretty much made of Investiture so you could probably do similar things to them, but still, Seon aren't Cognitive Shadows.

[TheCollector]

I just have to point out one thing:

Somewhere near the beginning (I don't remember exactly) there was a discussion about when Szeth became truthless, and I have an answer that I don't think was brought up. In tWoK, in the Rysn interlude, it is mentioned that Vstim had gotten a truthless from the shin seven years previously. I'm fairly certain that that truthless is Szeth.

Also, more on the current topic of seons, what does Ala mean as an Aon? That could be a hint.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, TheCollector said:

Also, more on the current topic of seons, what does Ala mean as an Aon? That could be a hint

Beauty, Handsomenes

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

On 2/17/2022 at 0:03 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Beauty, Handsomenes

All words that describe Thaidakar.

[Serack]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:34 AM, En-priestess said:

Could Shallan’s mother’s soul be in the seon box? We know the Davars had one and Shallan played with it as a child. If it can hold a seon, aka a cognitive shadow, why not a Herald?

Gives a whole new meaning to her father keeping her mother’s glowing soul in a box…

(Edit: in chapter 64 of WoR, Shallan gets frightened in the cell where she sees Taln and swears by saying “mother’s soul”, just as people swear by the Heralds. E.g. Ishar’s soul, Ash’s eyes… Chana’s soul?)

You got me thinking.  If Chanarach's soul were trapped in a box, it probably would have unraveled like Jezrien's did and as Kalak feared his would.  

 

No, her "soul" went back to Braize as the OP theory goes.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

@teknopathetic @Epimus We've just gone ahead and made a thread for prologue discussion, please keep talk about it there

[teknopathetic]

It would be hilarious if Brandon knew about this theory and is trolling with the SP5 prologue hints. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic]

Originally, the thing that tipped me off to this theory is the glowing light that Lin Davar puts in the safe. If we go with this theory being true, what do we think the glowing light was? This detail truly was the thing that pulled this theory together. 
 

Pattern was not there, so he is not a witness to the event and is not reliable in any way. 
 

Does anyone else think Shallan didn’t hallucinate the light as a child? What did get out in the safe and wad it a gem heart? Actually the soul of a herald? Something else?  

Edited May 17, 2022 by teknopathetic

[RedBlue]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Does anyone else think Shallan didn’t hallucinate the light as a child? What did get out in the safe and wad it a gem heart? Actually the soul of a herald? Something else?  

If it were just the light, I would assume that it was an invention of adult Shallan’s. Like a way of censoring the memory after the fact.

For me, the weird bit is that Shallan associates the thing in the safe with her mother’s soul. That’s oddly specific, which rules out the theory that it’s just adult Shallan’s addition to the memory. And you don’t confuse a soul with a Shardblade for no reason.

The obvious(ish) explanation is that Chana’s soul is literally trapped in the safe by Lin. Presumably something goes wrong, and she ends up on Braize. We know that it is theoretically possible to trap Herald ‘souls’ in a gemstone like spren, and it’s plausible that the people around Chana had figured this out. Maybe it was even a contingency plan in case of Herald death.

Another possible explanation is that child Shallan considered Testament to be her mother. I don’t mean that she confuses Testament for Chana (that would be wild), but that Testament acted like a parent to child Shallan, so Shallan saw her as another mother. That would explain why she connects the Testament Shardblade to her mother’s soul - it’s her mother, but it isn’t a body in the traditional sense, so she calls it a soul.

As for Shallan seeing the ‘soul’ locked in the safe and then going to talk to Testament in the garden - I think this can be explained by Shallan panicking, and instinctively knowing that she can call Testament to her.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

@teknopathetic

This theory seems completely plausible. My only quibble would be Shallan actually killing Chana. As we have seen, Heralds fight with Spiderman levels of reaction time. Ishar literally parried a Shardblade with his finger tip and he isn't even considered "good" when compared to some of the others. There's certainly room for surprise or hesitation or what ever, but after watching Ishar take on a whole squad of Windrunners it seems a bit credulous that a child could kill a Herald.

I used to wonder what Ishar meant when he said he would destroy the Radiants if they didn't agree to be bound by oaths. I assumed that it was some Bondsmith thing. Now I think he literally just meant he would kill them all with his bare hands..

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I always thought the box contained the davar household unmade, which my theory is chemoarish( situated in bavland right). Chemoarish could very well have a deep connection with chanarach, we will have to see

[cometaryorbit]

My main issue with the theory (which does look more plausible now) is that it seems that with the Everstorm allowing the Fused to be reborn directly, no Herald breaking is necessary to explain the Desolation.

I always took "Taln didn't break" to mean that once Odium bypassed the Oathpact, Taln just got sent back to Roshar as a result- his return was an effect this time, not a cause.

[teknopathetic]

56 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

My main issue with the theory (which does look more plausible now) is that it seems that with the Everstorm allowing the Fused to be reborn directly, no Herald breaking is necessary to explain the Desolation.

I always took "Taln didn't break" to mean that once Odium bypassed the Oathpact, Taln just got sent back to Roshar as a result- his return was an effect this time, not a cause.

That was a concern for many people. Something in the stormlight 5 prologue might potentially shed some light the Everstorm vs a Herald Breaking debate, but we can’t speak of that in this thread. Maybe I should make a new one for post S5P readers to avoid accidental spoilers for people. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

My main issue with the theory (which does look more plausible now) is that it seems that with the Everstorm allowing the Fused to be reborn directly, no Herald breaking is necessary to explain the Desolation.

I always took "Taln didn't break" to mean that once Odium bypassed the Oathpact, Taln just got sent back to Roshar as a result- his return was an effect this time, not a cause.

I don't think that's true, Fused still needed to travel from Braize to Everstorm for the first time, and there was Taln preventing any movement from Braize. But, as it was stated multiple times, connection/bridge created by Everstorm might be enough to bypass Taln, as voidsprens were present on Roshar before Taln returned. 

[+Child of Hodor]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

My main issue with the theory (which does look more plausible now) is that it seems that with the Everstorm allowing the Fused to be reborn directly, no Herald breaking is necessary to explain the Desolation.

I always took "Taln didn't break" to mean that once Odium bypassed the Oathpact, Taln just got sent back to Roshar as a result- his return was an effect this time, not a cause.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think that's true, Fused still needed to travel from Braize to Everstorm for the first time, and there was Taln preventing any movement from Braize. But, as it was stated multiple times, connection/bridge created by Everstorm might be enough to bypass Taln, as voidsprens were present on Roshar before Taln returned. 

I agree that Chana is Shallan's mom, but no Herald needs to have broken for the events of the novels to be happening. 

My interpretation is the Fused and Heralds (that are keeping to their Oath) are stuck to where the Barrier Storm is. We know from RoW that part of the storm had already been moved to Roshar cognitive realm before the end of tWoK. So Taln can show up in Roshar without breaking his Oath. Why didn't the Fused show up at that point? They don't have bodies, the Everstorm is in the Cognitive realm and they can't find any Listeners in the Cognitive Realm. The Heralds regrow their body automatically, they are never without one. Taln and Chana probably showed up in the Cognitive realm and Taln hopped over to the Physical through Honor's perpendicularity that moves. Chana is somewhere feeling bad about trying to kill her daughter and feeling embarrassed about losing in single-combat to a child.

"He won't remain bound by this. The enemy. He'll find a way around it. You know he will." Kalak tWoK Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

Right away the front 5 are set up as being about the enemy finding a way around something and our heroes having to deal with that loophole. Odium found the loophole by having the Listeners summon part of the Everstorm to physical realm Roshar. 

If a Herald had already broken, Odium could have reincarnated Fused to help the Listeners achieve this end. That he didn't means to me that he could not, the Listeners really could have used the help. The Listeners succeeded in bringing the storm, but barely. The people singing were being killed by Dalinar's troops when they got the job done. If the timing was off by a matter of minutes this 4,500 year plan is ruined by the people singing being killed before the summoning was completed. 

Oathpact Mechanism

There is a Barrier Storm in the Cognitive Realm on Braize. It's probably always been named the Everstorm. In the Visions Honor refers to the Everstorm by name, he knows the name of storm that will be on Roshar thousands of year after his death because it already existed on Braize and he probably made it.  He's big into storms in general. He creates a storm meant to seal things on Braize forEver.

Anyways, this Everstorm enforces the Oathpact. It may also be what keeps Odium in and the Heralds & Honor created the Oathpact to piggyback on it.

"As Odium is sealed by the powers of Honor and Cultivation your Heralds sealed the spren of the dead into the place you call damnation. The Heralds went to Honor and he gave them the right to this Oath." - Stormfather OB Ch. 38

We don't know for sure, but it's reasonable to assume that the Everstorm was created to enforce the deal that keeps Odium bound. We know it's a deal between Shards because Dalinar has enough connection to Honor's remnants to let Odium out of it (OB Ch. 57 Passion). Then Honor let the Heralds use it for a secondary purpose of sealing the Fused. Odium doesn't show up and talk to people on Roshar until after the Everstorm is brought over and at first he can only talk to people when the Everstorm is near them. A year later he has more freedom. 

By moving a piece of it to Roshar's physical realm it forms the bridge that the Diagram talked about. The Fused are still confined to where the Everstorm is, but now it is also in the Physical Realm on Roshar. The Fused are finally able to go to a place that has Singer bodies with gemhearts to inhabit. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[+mdross81]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I agree that Chana is Shallan's mom, but no Herald needs to have broken for the events of the novels to be happening. 

My interpretation is the Fused and Heralds (that are keeping to their Oath) are stuck to where the Barrier Storm is. We know from RoW that part of the storm had already been moved to Roshar cognitive realm before the end of tWoK. So Taln can show up in Roshar without breaking his Oath. Why didn't the Fused show up at that point? They don't have bodies, the Everstorm is in the Cognitive realm and they can't find any Listeners in the Cognitive Realm. The Heralds regrow their body automatically, they are never without one. Taln and Chana probably showed up in the Cognitive realm and Taln hopped over to the Physical through Honor's perpendicularity that moves. Chana is somewhere feeling bad about trying to kill her daughter and feeling embarrassed about losing in single-combat to a child.

"He won't remain bound by this. The enemy. He'll find a way around it. You know he will." Kalak tWoK Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

Right away the front 5 are set up as being about the enemy finding a way around something and our heroes having to deal with that loophole. Odium found the loophole by having the Listeners summon part of the Everstorm to physical realm Roshar. 

If a Herald had already broken, Odium could have reincarnated Fused to help the Listeners achieve this end. That he didn't means to me that he could not, the Listeners really could have used the help. The Listeners succeeded in bringing the storm, but barely. The people singing were being killed by Dalinar's troops when they got the job done. If the timing was off by a matter of minutes this 4,500 year plan is ruined by the people singing being killed before the summoning was completed. 

Oathpact Mechanism

There is a Barrier Storm in the Cognitive Realm on Braize. It's probably always been named the Everstorm. In the Visions Honor refers to the Everstorm by name, he knows the name of storm that will be on Roshar thousands of year after his death because it already existed on Braize and he probably made it.  He's big into storms in general. He creates a storm meant to seal things on Braize forEver.

Anyways, this Everstorm enforces the Oathpact. It may also be what keeps Odium in and the Heralds & Honor created the Oathpact to piggyback on it.

"As Odium is sealed by the powers of Honor and Cultivation your Heralds sealed the spren of the dead into the place you call damnation. The Heralds went to Honor and he gave them the right to this Oath." - Stormfather OB Ch. 38

We don't know for sure, but it's reasonable to assume that the Everstorm was created to enforce the deal that keeps Odium bound. We know it's a deal between Shards because Dalinar has enough connection to Honor's remnants to let Odium out of it (OB Ch. 57 Passion). Then Honor let the Heralds use it for a secondary purpose of sealing the Fused. Odium doesn't show up and talk to people on Roshar until after the Everstorm is brought over and at first he can only talk to people when the Everstorm is near them. A year later he has more freedom. 

By moving a piece of it to Roshar's physical realm it forms the bridge that the Diagram talked about. The Fused are still confined to where the Everstorm is, but now it is also in the Physical Realm on Roshar. The Fused are finally able to go to a place that has Singer bodies with gemhearts to inhabit. 

This is the best interpretation I’ve seen of how the the weakened Oathpact and the Everstorm intersect. I’m curious what you think of Ishar’s plan to “reset the Oathpact.” Seems like, under your interpretation, “resetting” would have to include finding a way to seal away or get rid of the portion of the Everstorm that has crossed into the Physical Realm on Roshar.

Edited to add additional question for @Child of Hodor

I agree that no Herald needed to break to allow the Fused to come to Roshar via the Everstorm. But what are we to make of Levian being brought back “the old way,” (i.e. directly by Odium) in RoW 116? I’m your view, would a Herald have needed to break to allow for that? Because that was the method that the Oathpact prevented from happening. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by mdross81

[cometaryorbit]

If Chanarach really is Shallan's mother, then are her siblings really her full biological siblings? Cognitive shadows having children seems weird enough that that would be odd...

...otoh Heralds seem to have 100% human bodies, unlike Returned, so maybe not.

The main thing I like about the idea is that it explains why so much weird stuff (Ghostbloods, Skybreakers, etc) is going on with Shallan's family - a Herald is a reasonable common cause for everyone to be interested.

The main thing I dislike (assuming Herald bodies are really biologically 100% human) is that it makes the whole "Everstorm bypassing the normal Desolation mechanism" thing more confusing.