[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[teknopathetic]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Provided a small child knew about and understood how a Radiant's Shardblade works. How would she?

2. How would her blade surprise her mother if she had already displayed it?

3. No, because we have no idea when Shallan became aware of these issues.

4. Because it contains a great deal of Investure and a Soulcaster can sense such things.

5. A Shardblade is extremely valuable and he could not explain that Blade at that time. How could he not lock it away?

1. Shallan figured all this out at some point. To the best of our knowledge, Shallan has never had a conversation about her Spren/Blade with anyone between the events of her unbonding and the events of TWoK/WoR (minus a very short conversation with Hoid at Middlefest). Any knowedge Shallan has she gained as a child. Based on the flashbacks, Shallan does not gain any new knowledge until WoR when she starts re-learning about radiant spren and the orders. However, as an adult in TWoK/Early WoR she understands that she has a blade (she thinks about heartbeats and remembers that heartbeats dont matter for her) and she knows her spren was her blade (as she admits she hates Pattern for killing Shallan's mother). 

2. Understanding the details here doesnt change what occurred. What matters is that Shallan did know this either before the death of her mother or on the day of the death of her mother. We know Shallan understands the connection here because Shallan blames Pattern for killing Shallan's mother. Shallan could only have learned that while bonding testement, when Shallan killed Lady Davar, or when Shallan unbonded Testement. Interestingly, at this point in the series it had not been revealed to the reader that Spren become shardblades. If Shallan understands this, then there is no reason for Shallan to believe her blade/spren was glowing as was trapped in a safe. 

3. Again, Shallan has never spoken to anyone about her blade or spren, so how would she have learned anything after the day her mother died? She must have known almost all of it on the day her mother died. Yes she had a conversation with Testement, but that wouldnt change the fact Shallan saw glowing light. 

4. We have never seen any evidence of someone sensing a shardblade. Maybe radiant blades are different, but there is no textual evidence for this. 

5. Lin did not put the blade in the safe because Lin was thinking that the blade was valuable. If we believe that the blade was the important thing in the safe, Lin could have used that blade to make a fortune and save his house - he never did so. Lin knew something about what was going on with Shallan/Radiants. We know this since his wife says "[Shallan] is one of them!". "Them" implies the information has already been shared between the speakers, so we can assume Lin is aware of some of what was going on. Lin decides to never engage with what occured, and despite his greed he never considers the blade as an asset. If we believe the blade was the item in the safe, perhaps he feared Shallan would resummon it. But either way, Lin tries hard to forget what is in the safe (despite him looking towards the safe in the same way Shallan often does). What is in the safe is never considered an asset to the Davar family. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by teknopathetic

[LuckyJim]

I don't know if this proves anything, but at the end of WoR Shallan is going through the scene where her mother died. She looks into the safe and thinks something like "it wasn't her mother's soul, but the object that had taken her soul" or something along those lines. The point is, she was realizing that what she thought was her mother's soul was actually the Shardblade, and that she had associated the glow with her mother's soul because it came from the blade that had killed her.

[Elias]

This is unbelievable! All those little teeny tiny smidgens of clues, and you assembled them into not just a possible theory, but one with real merit! If this actually turns out to be what really happened, Brandon will ascend to plot twist godhood in my book.

[teknopathetic]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:08 PM, LuckyJim said:

I don't know if this proves anything, but at the end of WoR Shallan is going through the scene where her mother died. She looks into the safe and thinks something like "it wasn't her mother's soul, but the object that had taken her soul" or something along those lines. The point is, she was realizing that what she thought was her mother's soul was actually the Shardblade, and that she had associated the glow with her mother's soul because it came from the blade that had killed her.

While a strong counterpoint, we still need to explain why the blade would be glowing. I personally think Shallan decides she must have been wrong to assume her mother's soul was in there (because Shallan realizes this likely doesn't make sense), but we will learn that Shallan's original belief was correct and the light was real and was something unique. 

[Andy92]

The scene at the end of WoR always confused me.

1) If the blade was locked up before Shallan broke her oaths, why didn’t it just disappear back into spren form at some point? It doesn’t make sense that Shallan would be in the state of mind to keep it actively summoned. 

2) How big was that safe if it could hold an entire Shardblade lol. Maybe Testament manifested as a shorter blade for Shallan so she could hold it properly but I don’t know. 

3) Shallan is the most unreliable narrator I’ve ever seen. One of these days we’ll find out her dad put the One Ring in there. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

14 hours ago, Andy92 said:

1) If the blade was locked up before Shallan broke her oaths, why didn’t it just disappear back into spren form at some point? It doesn’t make sense that Shallan would be in the state of mind to keep it actively summoned.

It did, from what she says.

14 hours ago, Andy92 said:

2) How big was that safe if it could hold an entire Shardblade lol. Maybe Testament manifested as a shorter blade for Shallan so she could hold it properly but I don’t know. 

Shallan's recreation of the scene included it, it was pretty small, yeah.

Here's what she shows:

Quote

She was there, in her father’s room. Trembling, she pulled aside the picture, revealing the strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised the key, and hesitated. “Mother’s soul is inside.”

“Mmm . . . No. Not her soul. That which took her soul.”

Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade. Thrust into the strongbox hastily, tip piercing through the back, hilt toward her.

“This was you,” she whispered.

“Mmm . . . Yes.”

“Father took you from me,” Shallan said, “and tried to hide you in here. Of course, that was useless. You vanished as soon as he closed the strongbox. Faded to mist. He wasn’t thinking clearly. Neither of us were.”

[Andy92]

It’s been a while since I read WoR so that’s probably more clear than what I recalled lol. 

The difference between what Shallan is saying in this scene and what actually happened though is that this blade is Testament, not Pattern. I’m assuming the Testament blade just disappeared all the same though. I just never got why the blade didn’t disappear until after it got put in the box and not before. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

27 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

The difference between what Shallan is saying in this scene and what actually happened though is that this blade is Testament, not Pattern.

Wonder if that's why Pattern's doing his little hum before agreeing.

25 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I just never got why the blade didn’t disappear until after it got put in the box and not before. 

Yeah that's a good question. Maybe Testament didn't want to draw attention to the fact that that was by no means at all a solution, and so waited until she was out of sight rather than disappearing right in front of him and making him try and come up with a more permanent measure (not that I can think of much he actually could've done to a spren lol, but the situation was a mess and she might not want to make it messier)? I dunno.

[LuckyJim]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:05 PM, teknopathetic said:

While a strong counterpoint, we still need to explain why the blade would be glowing. I personally think Shallan decides she must have been wrong to assume her mother's soul was in there (because Shallan realizes this likely doesn't make sense), but we will learn that Shallan's original belief was correct and the light was real and was something unique. 

Because living blades glow, and Testament was still alive when the blade was put in the lock box.

[BinarySecond]

I was reading the OP and something struck me about Shallan being referred to as "one of them"

 

What is she's a herald? Totally crazy but...I find it compelling.

Edited September 21, 2021 by BinarySecond
Didn't English good

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

I was reading the OP and something struck me about Shallan being referred to as "one of them"

 

What is she's a herald? Totally crazy but...I find it compelling.

A few points against this.

1. None of the other characters, Herald, Ghostblood, spren or Unmade notice this
2. She didn't feel Jezrien's death.

[mathiau]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A few points against this.

1. None of the other characters, Herald, Ghostblood, spren or Unmade notice this
2. She didn't feel Jezrien's death.

3. Shallan's parent are her biological parents

[BinarySecond]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

A few points against this.

1. None of the other characters, Herald, Ghostblood, spren or Unmade notice this
2. She didn't feel Jezrien's death.

Well yes, I have to say it was compelling due to it rationality. But a 5th truth of "I am one of the original heralds" would be so funny to me.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:34 AM, mathiau said:

3. Shallan's parent are her biological parents

Obviously they're both Heralds too!

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Obviously they're both Heralds too!

While you're obviously saying this as a joke, I don't thing we can actually disprove Lirin being a Transgender Herald.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

While you're obviously saying this as a joke, I don't thing we can actually disprove Lirin being a Transgender Herald.

Well, obviously Lirin is Tanavast in hiding, because Kaladin is the Child of Tanavast

[teknopathetic]

On 9/21/2021 at 7:16 AM, BinarySecond said:

I was reading the OP and something struck me about Shallan being referred to as "one of them"

 

What is she's a herald? Totally crazy but...I find it compelling.

Part of me wonders if Shallan was a cognitive cutting of Chanarach or something? Like Chana was making a new Chanarach to take over in the Oathpact. It would be an interesting twist. Shallan is a human, but she also has a little something extra. 

[Tglassy]

So, I didn't read the entire thread, but I read the first post, and there's a couple points I think were missed.  Forgive me if they've been brought up already.

 

1.  Testament wasn't "stuck in the safe".  In WoR, at the end, Shallan even says how the Shardblade would have puffed into mist the moment he closed the door.  She would have just summoned Testament back to her.  She sees the light because she's, for lack of a better term, insane.  She's pretending the Shard took her mother's soul because it's easier to deal with than saying "I killed my mother."  She was a child, and is dissociating herself from her actions.  

2. Shallan's sworn her 5th ideal.  Her first "Truth" wasn't "I killed my father", it was "I am terrified."  When the Spren came to her, asking "What are you?", she said "What am I?  I'm terrified!"  And then she soulcast for the first time, turning the goblet to blood.  That was her first truth.  Her SECOND was "I killed my father", which would make that her third ideal.  Fourth was "I killed my mother".  The final one is "I killed my spren" or whatever the actual wording was, I've only read RoW once.  Shallan is at her fifth ideal.  

[teknopathetic]

22 hours ago, Tglassy said:

So, I didn't read the entire thread, but I read the first post, and there's a couple points I think were missed.  Forgive me if they've been brought up already.

 

1.  Testament wasn't "stuck in the safe".  In WoR, at the end, Shallan even says how the Shardblade would have puffed into mist the moment he closed the door.  She would have just summoned Testament back to her.  She sees the light because she's, for lack of a better term, insane.  She's pretending the Shard took her mother's soul because it's easier to deal with than saying "I killed my mother."  She was a child, and is dissociating herself from her actions.  

2. Shallan's sworn her 5th ideal.  Her first "Truth" wasn't "I killed my father", it was "I am terrified."  When the Spren came to her, asking "What are you?", she said "What am I?  I'm terrified!"  And then she soulcast for the first time, turning the goblet to blood.  That was her first truth.  Her SECOND was "I killed my father", which would make that her third ideal.  Fourth was "I killed my mother".  The final one is "I killed my spren" or whatever the actual wording was, I've only read RoW once.  Shallan is at her fifth ideal.  

1. The issue is that Shallan gets confused about this in terms of how she discusses the "glowing light" she keeps seeing as a child coming from that safe. Shallan is confused, and we cant be sure her new idea that "the safe was empty" is correct. Shall simultaneoulsy believed something glowing was in the box and that Testement was not in the box, so I am saying Shallan doesnt have the story 100% correct. Shallan knows there are holes in her story, and this is likely the hole. 

Shallan also is getting confirmation of heradult-current theory from Patter who was not actually there to witness what happened. Pattern may be making poor assumptions too and may be missing details regarding Shallan's mother and the safe. 

2. No one is sure how many oaths Shallan is on or how this is working with two Spren potentially bonded or connected to her. I think very few people think Shallan is on Oath 5 with Pattern as we havent seen Shardplate. As for Testemant, we literally know nothing of how oaths work in connection with dead-spren, or if it works any differently with Lightweavers as that order has non-standard oaths to bein with. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by teknopathetic

[Tglassy]

19 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

1. The issue is that Shallan gets confused about this in terms of how she discusses the "glowing light" she keeps seeing as a child coming from that safe. Shallan is confused, and we cant be sure her new idea that "the safe was empty" is correct. Shall simultaneoulsy believed something glowing was in the box and that Testement was not in the box, so I am saying Shallan doesnt have the story 100% correct. Shallan knows there are holes in her story, and this is likely the hole. 

Shallan also is getting confirmation of heradult-current theory from Patter who was not actually there to witness what happened. Pattern may be making poor assumptions too and may be missing details regarding Shallan's mother and the safe. 

2. No one is sure how many oaths Shallan is on or how this is working with two Spren potentially bonded or connected to her. I think very few people think Shallan is on Oath 5 with Pattern as we havent seen Shardplate. As for Testemant, we literally know nothing of how oaths work in connection with dead-spren, or if it works any differently with Lightweavers as that order has non-standard oaths to bein with. 

Then I'm part of the Very Few.  Isn't there a Word of Brandon saying Shallan, in Oathbringer, was at a higher oath than Kaladin?  Kaladin was on 3 in Oathbringer, making Shallan on 4.  Then she'd be on 5 at the end of RoW. 

It seems pretty clear to me.  She spoke words (I am terrified), and then soulcast.  Then she spoke more words (I killed my father), and started lightweaving.  Then more words (I killed my mother) and started lightweaving and soulcasting together (making bodies that could feel real during the fight at the end of Oathbringer).  Who knows what she'll be able to do, now.  

She didn't summon Pattern as a Shardblade until she'd spoken 2 words (third ideal, same as Kaladin), but she gave clues in Way of Kings that she already had one.  When she summoned her shardblade on screen, though, it was Pattern, because it was glowing and alive, not a dead blade like the others.  Which means the shardblade she was alluding to in Way of Kings would have been a dead blade (Testament).

She broke her bond with Testament.  Any power she'd have had would have gone out the window, same as when Kaladin broke his oaths to Syl. I suppose she could speak truths to Testament and repair the bond, BUT I'm thinking once you speak the 5th Oath, there aren't any oaths left, and that's possibly what happened.  Perhaps she got to the 5th oath with Testament, then broke the bond, thus killing her, and there's no where left to go.  

Either way, Shallan has most certainly said four truths to Pattern, gaining power each time.  

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tglassy

[+Child of Hodor]

14 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Then I'm part of the Very Few.  Isn't there a Word of Brandon saying Shallan, in Oathbringer, was at a higher oath than Kaladin?  Kaladin was on 3 in Oathbringer, making Shallan on 4.  Then she'd be on 5 at the end of RoW. 

It seems pretty clear to me.  She spoke words (I am terrified), and then soulcast.  Then she spoke more words (I killed my father), and started lightweaving.  Then more words (I killed my mother) and started lightweaving and soulcasting together (making bodies that could feel real during the fight at the end of Oathbringer).  Who knows what she'll be able to do, now.  

She didn't summon Pattern as a Shardblade until she'd spoken 2 words (third ideal, same as Kaladin), but she gave clues in Way of Kings that she already had one.  When she summoned her shardblade on screen, though, it was Pattern, because it was glowing and alive, not a dead blade like the others.  Which means the shardblade she was alluding to in Way of Kings would have been a dead blade (Testament).

She broke her bond with Testament.  Any power she'd have had would have gone out the window, same as when Kaladin broke his oaths to Syl. I suppose she could speak truths to Testament and repair the bond, BUT I'm thinking once you speak the 5th Oath, there aren't any oaths left, and that's possibly what happened.  Perhaps she got to the 5th oath with Testament, then broke the bond, thus killing her, and there's no where left to go.  

Either way, Shallan has most certainly said four truths to Pattern, gaining power each time.  

The WoBs on Shallan are not trustworthy, Brandon lied to preserve the secret in a lot of those. I do like the idea of "I am terrified" being a Truth, maybe the restatement of a Truth from when she was a kid that reactivated something. Child Truths are probably very simple. 

I can't find the quote, but I am positive Shallan remarks in a later book that the voice that spoke to Shallan in the "I am terrified" scene didn't sound like Pattern. That was the scene where she first soulcast.  Shallan is very good at lightweaving and terrible at soulcasting which seems like a hint that she is getting soulcasting from the deadeye spren and lightweaving from the non-deadeye. 

[Frustration]

16 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 Isn't there a Word of Brandon saying Shallan, in Oathbringer, was at a higher oath than Kaladin?  Kaladin was on 3 in Oathbringer, making Shallan on 4.  Then she'd be on 5 at the end of RoW. 

It was WoR, but yes there is.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Brandon lied to preserve the secret in a lot of those.

I wouldn't say lied, Shallan had sworn more Oaths than Kal, just not to Pattern.

[Chemee]

I was just listening to Chapter 14 in Rythm of War. In a discussion between Leshwi and Venli, we learn that the Oathpact was transferred solely to Taln. Another Herald could not be responsible because they were no longer a part of the Oathpact.  

 

[teknopathetic]

30 minutes ago, Chemee said:

I was just listening to Chapter 14 in Rythm of War. In a discussion between Leshwi and Venli, we learn that the Oathpact was transferred solely to Taln. Another Herald could not be responsible because they were no longer a part of the Oathpact.  

 

Could you qoute that directly?

[Frustration]

37 minutes ago, Chemee said:

I was just listening to Chapter 14 in Rythm of War. In a discussion between Leshwi and Venli, we learn that the Oathpact was transferred solely to Taln. Another Herald could not be responsible because they were no longer a part of the Oathpact.  

 

Later Dalinar shows that all living Heralds, (except maybe one depending on how you read it) are still connected to the Oathpact.