teknopathetic

[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

263 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

That's true but I doubt less than half of Nightblood's starting investiture was breaths

I don't see how this is relevant here

Spren are Investiture that has achieved sapience. So, for all we know, Nightblood has become more sapient over time. To use Mass Effect terms: He may have started out as much more of a ‘VI’, and over time progressed to become more of an ‘AI.’ Brandon does call him a ‘robot Spren’ after all.

 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Getting back to the Cognitive Shadows having children, we now know that it is Returned AND ____ that have had cognitive shadow children, so this opens the door a bit more towards the idea that Shallan is a Herald child. Before that WOB, we could have assumed it was just Returned having babies and that no other Cognitive Shadow had managed/wanted to do it. Now that we are looking for an example to fill the "Returned and ____" slot, we get to look at Shallan more purposefully to see if she makes sense there given the on-screen evidence (as opposed to just taking random stabs at what has happened offscreen in other books). 

--

Of the Shadows we know, I would say Heralds seem like the closest thing to Returned that I can think of as they have their previous physical bodies reformed for them.  As a bit of meta-evidence, if someone was to read Warbreaker they would make the connection to Heralds in a lot of ways, and children might be a logical question a reader would be asking about (almost like foreshadowing). 
 

Returned: Cognitive Shadows in functional restored physical bodies that are their own
Heralds:  Cognitive Shadows in functional restored (?) physical bodies that are their own

Thaidakar:

  Hide contents

Cognitive shadow that either does not have a body or is stapled stapled to a new body, stapled to their kandra bones, or ???


Fused: Cognitive Shadows that are stapled to a body that is not their own. (Unclear if the child would be related to the Fused-soul or not)

Then we have Lifeless and Shades which are more like walking corpses than functional cognitive shadows, but there might be some wiggle room there to reproduce and end up with something weird. 

And then I guess the Stormfather, but we know he has had children kind of, so I dont think we are talking about him.

---
 

Cognitive Shadow, stapled to a body that involves his original skeleton somehow.

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Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

So, this theory just got more possible

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On 2/3/2021 at 0:44 PM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Other than the eye color thing, which Brandon has messed up in the past FYI, none of these points disprove the idea of Chana being Shallans mother.  I agree that Shallan didn't start the Desolation, but this actually seems like a plausible idea for who her mom is.  

 

Also there's a reply above about a WoB that sort of supports this.

My dad's eyes are brown, my mom's eyes are green, mine are blue. 

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6 hours ago, Unite Them said:

My dad's eyes are brown, my mom's eyes are green, mine are blue. 

Yes, but you're not a lighteyes

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes, but you're not a lighteyes

I don't see your point.  What does someone having green or blue eyes have have to do with me being a light eyes.  If your light-eyed dad had say blue eyes and your mother had green isnt it feasible you'd have either one?  Or perhaps both of your parents had blue but your grandmother had green couldn't you have green?  Is there a genetic Wob on eye color I missed?

Evi had yellow eyes both her sons had blue.

I'm not sure which of Jasnah's parents she inherited her violet eyes from but I doubt it was Gavilar.  And if it was Gavilar then how come Dalinar has blue?

It seems entirely possible that Shallan and her mother could have different eye color.  

Edited by Unite Them
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Eye color genetics is definitely weirder on Roshar than here, but I’m not certain it would prevent someone from being born with different color light eyes to two lighteyed parents, for instance. Apparently lighteyes and darkeyes genetics don’t often mix to produce full lighteyes, though, I did find that much: 

Quote

Isilel

Or, and another thing—what happens if a lighteyed child is born to darkeyes or even slaves? Which should happen often enough, given that male nobles seem rather promiscuous. Anyway, are such people automatically of tenth dahn?

Brandon Sanderson

The situation is very much taken into account in these sorts of cases. Normally—if there is such a thing as normal with this—one question that's going to come up is are they heterochromatic. Because you can end up with one eye of each color, both eyes light, or both eyes dark. That's going to influence it a lot, what happens here. Do you have any heirs? Was your child born lighteyed? This sort of thing is treated the same way that a lot of societies treated illegitimate children. The question of, do I need this person as an heir? Are they born darkeyed? Can I shuffle them off somewhere? Set them up, declare them to be this certain rank. Are you high enough rank to do that? Are you tenth dahn yourself? What happens with all of these things? There's no single answer to that. The most common thing that's probably going to happen is that they are born heterochromatic. Then you're in this weird place where you're probably declared to be tenth dahn, but you may have way more power and authority than that if one parent is of a very high dahn, just as a bastard child in a royal line would be treated in our world.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148/#e2782 (Last section)

We’ve also been told eye color is related to the orders originally, though not that connected today, and for instance, Kaladin gets blue eyes because he’s a Windrunner, while other Orders get different colors it seems. So I would guess there’s some genetic weirdness to it.

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17 hours ago, Unite Them said:

I don't see your point.  What does someone having green or blue eyes have have to do with me being a light eyes.  If your light-eyed dad had say blue eyes and your mother had green isnt it feasible you'd have either one?  Or perhaps both of your parents had blue but your grandmother had green couldn't you have green?  Is there a genetic Wob on eye color I missed?

My point was the genetic of magic eyes doesn't work like our genetic, as evidence by the fact a darkeyes having a child with a lighteyes have more chances to make the child's eyes heterochromatic

Which is actually a point in the favour of your theory since the green eyes gene is recessive to the blue eyes one

Quote

Evi had yellow eyes both her sons had blue.

I'm not sure which of Jasnah's parents she inherited her violet eyes from but I doubt it was Gavilar.  And if it was Gavilar then how come Dalinar has blue?

These point on the other hand are valid

Quote

It seems entirely possible that Shallan and her mother could have different eye color.  

Yes, and it's even possible Chana's eyes are actually the same colour as Shallan's

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

My point was the genetic of magic eyes doesn't work like our genetic, as evidence by the fact a darkeyes having a child with a lighteyes have more chances to make the child's eyes heterochromatic

Which is actually a point in the favour of your theory since the green eyes gene is recessive to the blue eyes one

These point on the other hand are valid

Yes, and it's even possible Chana's eyes are actually the same colour as Shallan's

I see. There was no point.

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31 minutes ago, Unite Them said:

I see. There was no point.

...There was a point which was "your argument doesn't work"

Not "you are wrong", "your argument doesn't work"

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On 2021-08-02 at 7:56 PM, Jondesu said:

Eye color genetics is definitely weirder on Roshar than here, but I’m not certain it would prevent someone from being born with different color light eyes to two lighteyed parents, for instance. Apparently lighteyes and darkeyes genetics don’t often mix to produce full lighteyes, though, I did find that much: 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148/#e2782 (Last section)

We’ve also been told eye color is related to the orders originally, though not that connected today, and for instance, Kaladin gets blue eyes because he’s a Windrunner, while other Orders get different colors it seems. So I would guess there’s some genetic weirdness to it.

Exactly. I wonder if Chana’s eyes would also change colour if she surgebinded more often. 

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On 2/2/2021 at 10:09 PM, teknopathetic said:

Well I don’t know this part. I’m not sure if a child of a herald would have some special powers similar to how Vivenna can shape change. If you recall, Vivenna and Siri are descendants of a Returned. Vivenna also has a higher natural ability to awaken due to her heritage (confirmed by Vasher). Something there is different  

Maybe the divine breath is doing something special to cognitive shadow babies as an “Endowment” for one’s heirs is on brand. But the only children of cognitive shadows we know of are more invested then a regular person. 

So if Shallan is the child of a cognitive shadow, then there is the possibility that she looks different to someone as invested as Hoid. Maybe her aura is different? Maybe she bonds easier. Shallan might have something. It might even be a curse like a propensity to mental illness as well. Who knows.  

The point is Hoid seems flabbergasted to see Shallan at Middlefest. We assumed it was because she was bonded to Pattern. But it turns out Shallan only had a deadeye. So maybe Hoid saw a hint of cognitive shadow descendant power?  
 

And what is this dark presence Hoid says Shallan and her family are fighting? What did he see? Is it an unmade. Is it a cognitive shadow curse? Both? Who knows. 

I always took Hoid's surprise to see "Shallan" at Middlefest is Hoid's ability to know where he is needed tripping off. He's limited ability with fortune to "Always be where (he) is needed" has led him to take a message from a minor Skybreaker acolyte to his father in the middle of nowhere Jah Kaved to a silly little small town festival and he can't figure out why he's supposed to be there and then this timid, thirteen year old noble girl walks up and suddenly his fortune sense trips off and that's why he says what he says. He's glad he's finally figured out why this is the place he needs to be and surprised the reason he needs to be there is to talk to a timid 13 year old girl. He uses Allomancy and Breath to see her aura and bronze her to find out she has some hidden Lightweaver abilities and talks to her about the nature of lies. 

That was my interpretation of that scene. Otherwise great theory, I loved seeing it all written out like this.

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First post here, though I've followed the boards for a while.

One interesting thing I noticed since going all in on this theory, is that in the Taln interlude in WoR I-7, the chapter art in the border (I don't know what the actual term is) depicts Wit and Chanarach. I'm fairly certain this is the first time we see Taln as well, so it's odd that Chana and Wit are depicted. It's not something I would have noticed before seeing this theory, but I think it's neat.

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On 2/3/2021 at 1:40 PM, mathiau said:

Radiant was not created to protect Shallan from her memory, that's Veil's job. Radiant's objective was to be what Shallan was not, a soldier. Her appearance is a mix of Jasnah and Chana because they are the two women Shallan associate the most with the concept of soldier.

Another thought about Radiant's objective is that Radiant was meant to protect Shallan from responsibility. Radiant is Shallan's ideal of what a respectable Knight Radiant should be and it is often why Radiant comes out to deal with things that Shallan doesn't want to have to deal with. Part of responsibility is shouldering the weight of your actions. We see Radiant shield Shallan from this in one instance where Radiant saw that Shallan was about to kill Ialai Sadeas and instead of letting her do it, Radiant does it and doesn't tell her. In this case Radiant takes upon herself the responsibility of murdering someone, so Shallan doesn't have to. Just like Veil hid Shallan's memories such as the whole killing her spren, Radiant could recognize that the biggest responsibility that Shallan holds is not that of killing her parents or her spren, but the impact these things may have had on the world. Specifically this could be that Radiant is shielding Shallan from the idea that Shallan had doomed the world by killing her mom, so while she remembers killing her mom, Radiant is still hiding the effects that had on the world. Just a thought about what Radiant's role might be for Shallan even if this whole theory doesn't come to fruition. 

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I don't think there's any way to disprove this theory until we get more information, but I feel like it would do more harm than good to the story, because it makes Shallan's character arc even more repetitive than it already is. By the end of RoW, Shallan's finally worked past the guilt she's had over the pain she's caused to others in her childhood, and finally worked through her repressed memory and at the end of the book says she's filled all the gaps in her memory. After taking such a big step forward the next step is to do the whole thing over again. More repressed memories from her childhood and more guilt about harming people through her actions. I realize that she isn't a reliable narrator and her whole backstory is full of weird twists and turns but at this point shouldn't her arc go in a new direction rather than just being "Shallan's secret murders: part three"?

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1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

at the end of the book says she's filled all the gaps in her memory.

actually it tells us there is more

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

Shallan's secret murders: part three"?

Part Four

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10 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't think there's any way to disprove this theory until we get more information, but I feel like it would do more harm than good to the story, because it makes Shallan's character arc even more repetitive than it already is. By the end of RoW, Shallan's finally worked past the guilt she's had over the pain she's caused to others in her childhood, and finally worked through her repressed memory and at the end of the book says she's filled all the gaps in her memory. After taking such a big step forward the next step is to do the whole thing over again. More repressed memories from her childhood and more guilt about harming people through her actions. I realize that she isn't a reliable narrator and her whole backstory is full of weird twists and turns but at this point shouldn't her arc go in a new direction rather than just being "Shallan's secret murders: part three"?

She comes to terms with the part of her past that Veil protected her from, but Radiant is still around. 

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10 hours ago, Frustration said:

actually it tells us there is more

It says there's things she doesn't understand, but that "her memory was no longer full of holes".

Quote

She still had questions. Things about her past didn’t completely align yet, though her memory was no longer full of holes. There was much they didn’t understand. For example, she was certain that, during the years between killing Testament and finding Pattern, her powers had still functioned in some small ways.

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10 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It says there's things she doesn't understand, but that "her memory was no longer full of holes".

Ah, I might have missed that

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Thanks for sharing, this is an incredible theory and I’m on board with it.

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The theory might be true, but one change is that Shallan actually didn’t fully realize that her mother was a herald. 
 

Shallan will put the dots together, and then she will realize what happened.

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I think Shallan's mother being Chanarach explains an awful lot, but I don't think she's the Herald that broke (I don't think any of them did - the Oathpact was sidestepped). There's just too big a gap before the True Desolation, and too many other explanations for how it came about.

I think if she was a Herald, something must have stopped her returning to Braize. Candidate ideas:

  1. She was killed by a Shardblade - what does that do to a Herald? It must surely be a rare, even unique event.
  2. Her soul was re-attached. Nale did this to Szeth, who died in the same way, and it cannot have been a short time afterwards either. If any other organisation would have the technology to do this, I'd think the Ghostbloods would.
  3. Her soul was otherwise captured/imprisoned. Couldn't have been in a gem, because while it takes weeks for them to fade away (per Kelek), it does still eventually happen, and the others would have felt it. But are there other ways to constrain a soul? A spike, an aluminium box, some other type of fabrial, another spren (like the Stormfather taking on Tanavast's CS)... We know Shallan mistakes Testament for her mother's soul, but where did she get that idea?
  4. The Everstorm was already building in the Cognitive Realm, the Oathpact was already defunct, and she didn't have to go to Braize any more. I think this makes more sense than the Oathpact forcing her there yet somehow not immediately starting a Desolation proper when she broke sometime in the next few years.
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On 9/3/2021 at 3:44 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Her soul was otherwise captured/imprisoned. Couldn't have been in a gem, because while it takes weeks for them to fade away (per Kelek), it does still eventually happen, and the others would have felt it. But are there other ways to constrain a soul? A spike, an aluminium box, some other type of fabrial, another spren (like the Stormfather taking on Tanavast's CS)... We know Shallan mistakes Testament for her mother's soul, but where did she get that idea?

This to me is the biggest clue - Shallan does not hallucinate, and Shallan had enough information to know that Shallan's spren/blade was not her mother's soul. If this is a delusion, it serves no puprose. To me, it seems clear that Lin put something else in the safe besides the blade. 

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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

This to me is the biggest clue - Shallan does not hallucinate, and Shallan had enough information to know that Shallan's spren/blade was not her mother's soul.

How? How many people had she killed with her Blade?

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56 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How? How many people had she killed with her Blade?

Shallan sees her father put something glowing into the safe and clames it was something glowing brioghtly and that the object was her mother's soul. Tnen, Shallan goes to the garden because Shallan expects Testement to be in the garden as usual. Shallan would not think Testement was in the safe and locked away forever and then proceed immediately to go meet Testement in the garden. Shallan therefor knows Testement is not stuck in the safe and we can discount whatever was put in the safe as Lin outting Testement in the safe.

As well, as an adult Shallan knows she can summon her Shardblade because Shallan debates admitting this truth throughout TWoK and WoR (as proven by her mentioning heartbeats). Shallan knows that the blade is not permenetly locked in the safe and knows that a spren becomes a blade (as evidenced with her conversation with pattern). If SHallan knows this, then it is not logical to assume that whatever was glowing was Shallan's Testement blade. 

Whatever was in the safe, Shallan felt it was trapped there, glowed like nothing else, and was her mother's soul. Testement and The Blade do not fit what Shallan describes or how Shallan behaves. Why would a blade glow? Why would a spren glow? Why would Lin lock them away at all? Everyone seems to discount this as Shallan being mentally unstable, but hallucintating that light at the time of the event is not in keeping with any of the mental issues Shallan has ever shown us - she forgets details; she doesnt make them up.  

Edited by teknopathetic
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24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan sees her father put something glowing into the safe and clames it was something glowing brioghtly and that the object was her mother's soul. Tnen, Shallan goes to the garden because Shallan expects Testement to be in the garden as usual. Shallan would not think Testement was in the safe and locked away forever and then proceed immediately to go meet Testement in the garden.

Provided a small child knew about and understood how a Radiant's Shardblade works. How would she?

24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan therefor knows Testement is not stuck in the safe and we can discount whatever was put in the safe as Lin outting Testement in the safe.

How would her blade surprise her mother if she had already displayed it?

24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

As well, as an adult Shallan knows she can summon her Shardblade because Shallan debates admitting this truth throughout TWoK and WoR (as proven by her mentioning heartbeats). Shallan knows that the blade is not permenetly locked in the safe and knows that a spren becomes a blade (as evidenced with her conversation with pattern). If SHallan knows this, then it is not logical to assume that whatever was glowing was Shallan's Testement blade. 

No, because we have no idea when Shallan became aware of these issues.

24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Whatever was in the safe, Shallan felt it was trapped there, glowed like nothing else, and was her mother's soul. Testement and The Blade do not fit what Shallan describes or how Shallan behaves. Why would a blade glow? Why would a spren glow?

Because it contains a great deal of Investure and a Soulcaster can sense such things.

24 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Why would Lin lock them away at all? Everyone seems to discount this as Shallan being mentally unstable, but hallucintating that light at the time of the event is not in keeping with any of the mental issues Shallan has ever shown us - she forgets details; she doesnt make them up.  

A Shardblade is extremely valuable and he could not explain that Blade at that time. How could he not lock it away?

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