Popular Post teknopathetic Posted February 2, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) SPOILERS AND ADDED INFORMATION: I had posted other bits of this else where in 2020 before the "Taln never broke" WOB, but consolidated all the ideas here in this post This theory and post came out before Rhythm of War, but updates have been made to include information from ROW SA5 Prologue: This is not discussed to avoid spoilers, but SA5 Prologue has some interesting information --- Weird Questions: 1) TALN BREAKING SEEMS ODD What broke Taln? He is crazy and insensate for 4000 years and then one day he says "No thank you". What could have broke Taln? And, in terms of timelines, Taln returned before the Everstorm crossed into the physical realm, so it can't be that the Everstorm freed Taln. Yes the Everstorm was in the Cognitive, but all the doom and gloom seemed to be about the Everstorm being pulled in the Physical Realm by Eshoni and her team. Since Taln returns at the end of The Way of Kings, then Taln must return in a way that is not related to Eshoni. And as I mentioned before, I don't think it makes sense that Odium suddenly found a way to break Taln after 4000 years of trying. Edit: we later got a WOB that Taln did not break 2) DAVAR FAMILY CONNECTIONS Why was the Davar family so connected to secret societies despite being a Vaden house of little note? They have connections to the Ghostbloods and the Ghostbloods have handed them a confirmed soulcaster AND possibly a Seon box. Why? And it seems Skybreakers may have been visiting as well for "reasons". As well, the Skybreakers are breaking paterns when it comes to the Davars. As far as we know, Shallan's older brother is the only Skybreaker to be using a dead blade. Is this special treatment for a member of the Davar family? And finally, Mraize seems to know the Davar family well enough to recognize the name immediately. The Davars would need to be pretty active for that name recognition to be so apparent. 3) CHILD SHALLAN AND HER IMPORTANCE Why did the cryptic go to Shallan as a child? Lift was chosen due to her strange connection to Cultivation, but why Shallan? And why twice? And what were Shallan's parents fighting about? Shallan remembers her parents having huge fights over Shallan's future starting from a very young age. What was that about? Connected to that, why is an dark influence attacking the Davar family? Why is Heleran given a shardblade and brought into the skybreakers? No other Skybreaker acolyte was given a dead-blade and sent to war (that we know of), so why is Helaran so non-standard? Shallan's parents also fight A LOT about Shallan's future. This seems to be a hint that Chanarach had a major plan for Shallan. 4) MAMA DAVAR IN THE KNOW Why was Shallan's mother so quick to try and kill "one of them". How does she know "them" so clearly? Why would she have such a quick and radical reaction? 5) MORE SECRETS What is Shallan's last secret. There is still something horrible in Shallan's past, and this has something to do with a Seon box and whatever Radiant was created to protect Shallan from. What is worse than killing testament? We also have strange internal thoughts from Shallan from WOR in Chapter 10: "The world ended; and Shallan was to blame". This thought has never been explained. What did Shallan do to end the world? "The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.- Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. Mentioned by @honorblades Another strange but overlooked instance occurs in TWoK when Shallan almost summons her Shardblade: Quote She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct: "What are you?" If this is indeed Patters/Testement, then why would that Spren ask "What are you?" Testament should full-well know "what" Shallan is in terms of her being a human or a semi-radiant or anything like that. If this voice is Testament, then asking "What are you?" is very odd in my opinion. Shallan answers "I am terrified", but to me that always seemed ... not what the voice was asking Shallan. I always felt there was more to this that simply speaking truths. 6) THE FAMILY'S SAFE AND THE GLOWING LIGHTS ARE IMPORTANT (main data point for me creating this theory) People are very quick to discount Shallan's recollection of Lin Davar placing a glowing soul into a safe. I have always been very confused as to why Shallan is taken as "lying" to herself in this scene. Shallan has no reason to lie about the item being her mother's soul instead of a Shardblade. Lin Davar acted extremely quickly in that situation and made sure to place the item in that safe before dealing with any other issues. That to me is extremely telling. Why would Lin think the Shadblade wouldn't disappear eventually whenever Shallan dismissed it? Why would Lin think the Shardblade would stay in a safe if he managed to place it there quickly? Why would Lin so quickly run to place the item in the safe in the first place? Why is there an unused safe in that room? And then why do Shallan and Lin seem to continually see light coming from that safe for years and years? None of that vibes with "it is just a blade and Shallan is lying to herself" in any way. I just don't get it. Shallan having a Shardblade is not in anyway covered up by this lie, nor is the lie that Shallan killed her spren hidden by this lie either? There is no mental cover-up being done by Shallan making up a lie here. It seems everyone else dismisses Shallan, including Pattern, in favour of "Lynn put a sword in there". 7) EDIT FOR ROW: Then in ROW we get the timeline, and this does not hold up to scrutiny either. Shallan says her father put the item into the safe. WoR Shallan thinks that was a soul, but Pattern convinces her she is misremembering and that the item was a dead spren-blade. But that can't be a dead spren blade because Shallan has not unbonded Testament yet. Shallan does not think that a spren is trapped in that safe and we know this because Shallan then leaves to go speak with her spren in the garden AFTER the item is placed in the safe. Shallan acts immediately as a child in a way that doesn't even consider that her "blade" is in that safe. It just doesn't make sense to think a blade was placed into that safe based on the reactions of the two witnesses involved (which we learn Pattern is not one of) We take it from Pattern that Shallan is wrong here in her memory. However, In ROW we learn that Pattern is NOT an eyewitness to what went down in that room. Pattern sure has a lot of opinions about what Shallan saw, but Pattern was not actually there in the room and cannot actually know what Shallan saw go into the safe. Pattern assumed Shallan is lying to herself as Pattern sees many other lies around that event. But Pattern has no knowledge about who Mother-Davar was, what the safe was for, or why Skybreaker/Ghostbloods may have been in the home. Pattern is not a credible source of information on the events of that day. Shallan is the only living witness, and the actions of her father are consistent with the understanding Shallan had as a child. Shallan too noticed her father staring at the direction of the safe and the light. Only later in life is Shallan told again and again that her memory of those events are wrong by people who were not there. Both Lin and Shallan believe something is in the safe, and a sword does not match the other data points we have. There is "light" in that safe, and it is leaking out over time. And where di the blood come from? A Shardblade should not have done that. The blood has to be some other injury? The box is something. The light was something. Pattern is making assumptions and is wrong about this history with the safe. And why does Shallan see a glowing light coming from the box? Is it a soul like she believes? We learn in RoW that no herald soul can be trapped completely, and that the light of a herald will slowly leak out (is that what Shallan was seeing her whole childhood come out of the safe?). Is it her mother's soul escaping slowly to Braize? Or maybe could it be a perfect gem with Mishram inside? Who knows? But it is something. We have seen other glowing lights (Dawnshard and Dalinar hearing TwoK), so is she just mad, or did she really see something? Whatever it is, it does not make sense that Shallan thinks Testament is trapped in the safe if Shallan went and yelled at Testament after her mother was killed. Something was put into that safe, and to me the most likely answer is "her mother's soul". And firhermore, there is no reason to believe that Lin Davar would think a safe would ever prevent a Shardblade from reappearing in Shallan's hands. 8) HOID and MIDDLEFEST Hoid is downright shocked to see child-Shallan at the Middlefest celebration. Hoid sees something, but that something is unclear. When we originally read WOR, we assume HOpid is shocked to see a Radiant Child or perhaps a bonded spren. However, Shallan does not have a regular active sprenbond at the time of Middlefest, so Hoid did not see Testament or an active radiant bond There are a few things Hoid may have seen: a. Hoid saw Odium's touch on her family b. a dead-blade living-radiant connection line was still active c. the Cryptic team that watched Shallan. d. Shallan is so obviously a part of Chanarach that Hoid was gobsmacked by the resemblance. e. Shallan is noticeably different than other Rosharans due to her strange parentage. But whatever Hoid saw, it was not an active Spren Bond since we know Testament is a deadeye at that point in the story. ---- It All Put Together - A Timeline 1) JAH KAVED Chararach settled in the Davar estate in rural Jah Kaved. Chanarach is involved in several of the secret societies of Roshar just like most of the other heralds we have seen. Chanarach learns of the theory that a return of surgebinders will bring about a desolation. Chararach is completely terrified of returning to Braize and supports the culling of nascent surgebinding. Chanarach is involved in research and is a part of the search to create a method that prevents a herald from returning to Braize upon death. Kalak is also involved. 2) COMMUNICATION NETWORKS Chanarach commands a fair bit of influence and even has a Seon to communicate off world. It is unclear who knows who Chanarach is, but as she did settle in a rural area it is likely Chana's identity is not common knowledge even within secret societies (similar to Restares and Amaram). Chana exerts some form of influence and stays in-the-know with investiture theory and is able to contact others on Roshar or off-world. 3) CREATING THE SAFE Chana tries to devise a way to never return to Braize. She creates a special kind of safe that her soul could be placed in to. She thinks it will entirely prevent a return or will greatly delay her return to Braize. Chana has no way to test this as there are no herald-souls or returned-souls to experiment with. Possibly, the safe is akin to the Seon box in design or the safe may even actually be the Seon Box Shallan remembers playing with as a child? At some point, Chana tells Lin Davar what to do in case she is ever killed (place her soul into the box). In ROW we learn Kelek has some knowledge on this herald soul-leakage issue, so perhaps he was also involved in the Soul Box experiments in some way. 4) SHALLAN IS BORN Chanarach eventually has a daughter and names that daughter after her friend Shalash (Shallan says she was named after Shalash). Shallan may not be a "typical" offspring. She seems to be different from her brothers in some meaningful way. Perhaps Shallanis a cutting of Chararach or maybe Shallan conceived through some form or parthenogenetic process. Perhaps Shallan was created using breaths, as Tyn notes that Shallan seems to see colours better than most other people. EDIT: In a later WOB we learned that that non-returned Cognitive Shadows have had children Edit: In a later WOB we learned that Heralds can have children but it is complicated and effortful to do. Chana has special plans for Shallan. We know from WoR that Shallan's parents fought A LOT about Shallan's future. This implies to me that Shallan is somehow more intentionally convieved than her male siblings, and that Chana had something planned for Shallan that Lynn Davar had moral misgivings about. We are not sure what this is, but I think a lot of us will assume it has something to do with the Oathapact and/or returning to Braize. 5) SHALLAN IS DETECTED BY SPREN The Cryptics find out that one of the heralds has children or they discover a weird child who stands-out and is similar to the child of a Returned. The Cryptics send a delegation to investigate (WOB confirms heralds can have children though maybe it is difficult). At the same time, an unmade is drawn to the family. Testament begins to bond Shallan similar to what happened with Lift. Shallan eventually discovers what her mother is by playing with a Seon box at the Davar estate. The unmade's influence increases in an attempt to get the Herald to go insane and potentially get herself killed by Lin Devar or Shallan. 6) SHALLAN IS DETECTED BY SKYBREAKERS Shallan is discovered to be a surge binder by her mother. Her mother, fearing a return to Braize, refers to Shallan as "one of them". Note that Chanarach does not seem surprised that surgebinders are real. Chanarach has an absolute PTSD breakdown and attacks her daughter. Lin, who likely knew, steps in and Shallan is able to kill her mother in self defence. Lin Devar takes something and locks it away in the safe. We are told this is the Shardblade and Shallan's mother's soul. Shallan goes to the garden to scream at Testament and break her bond AFTER Testament is supposedly locked away in the safe. This timeline does not make sense even if we believe Testament could escape the safe. Why does Shallan believe her spren was trapped but also then in the garden? And how is Testament-blade = her mother's soul? There isn't a connection there logically. 7) SHALLAN KILLS A HERALD AND THEN TALKS TO TESTAMENT IN THE GARDEN After Shallan kills her mother, Shallan goes to Testament and breaks her bond. It is possible Testament told her more here as well. Shallan then begins to repress everything since Shallan has, in her mind, done the most evil act in history. "The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.- Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. Mentioned by @honorblades 8) CORRUPTION SETS IN Lin Devar begins to be corrupted even more. Lin also has mental guilt and wrestles with killing his herald-wife to save his daughter. He beings to protect Shallan at all costs for reasons that may be more than just guilt. Then Davar family hell ensues. The ghostbloods continue to cultivate the family. The Ghostbloods may not believe a herald could be killed by Lin or may not know she was a Herald. The Cryptics stay with Shallan as they don't blame her for what happened. They are still curious about what Shallan is and are researching what happens to a bonded-deadeye to its original radiant. The dark influence in the house may be more than an unmade as well. One of Chana's divine attributes is "obedient". I think this is significant. Lin is driven to rage every time one of his children will not obey him, and the word obey is emphasized many times. It may be possible the Lin's rage was a dark consequence of something Chana was doing, the safe's magical effects, or something else. It is also possible that Lin thought his children would inherit the divine attribute, and the fact they dont obey him drives him to rage. 9) BRAIZE AND SOUL LEAKAGE Chanarach returns to Braize. It may have taken some time for her to get to Braize. It seems the soul is leaking out of the safe over time (ROW: as we see with Jezrian in the gem). Or maybe it takes 5 years to find Chana on Braize since arrival was unexpected and because in earlier returns the heralds were able to "hide" for some time. Either way, the other heralds do not know that that has happened as they cannot detect the pain-bond while on Roshar. Edit: Ishar created the oathpact so he may be able to sense changes in it. 10) HOID SEES SHALLAN Shallan, with no bond, goes to Middlefest. Wit's magic or memory allow him to detect that there is something very strange about Shallan. Wit somehow knows what Shallan fights "is not truly natural" and encourages her to make a path for the light. It is unclear what Wit saw, but he knew more than the fact she was a surgebinder (even though she's actually a deadeye-binder at the time). 11) CHANA IS CAPTURED ON BRAIZE Chanarach is eventually found on Braize. For some reason, Chana either breaks to the pain or gives in to some deal Odium offers. It may have taken a while or been immediate. What is strange is that Chana has not been seen returning to Roshar, either Chana took some deal meaning she did not have to return or perhaps she intentionally landed somewhere remote. 12) TALN RETURNS WITHOUT BREAKING THE OATH Taln returns to Roshar completely insane and without breaking. What happens to Chanarach is unknown. All assume Taln broke. 13) SHALLAN BEGINS TO REMEMBER THAT HER MOTHER WAS A HERALD Radiant is created from memories of Shallan's mother. Or potentially, Radiant is somehow part of Chanarach. Radiant dresses in the same blue and red warrior outfit as the Herald Chanarach in artworks. Radiant is Shallan's repressed memories of who her mother was. It is also possible that Radiant is in someway Shallan's mother (connection mumbo jumbo and cognitive shadow stuff along with cultivation weirdness possibilities) Here is a description of Radiant: “She [Radiant] had chosen to wear her vakama; the traditional Vaden’s warrior clothing. It was similar to the Alethi takama but the skirt was pleeted instead of straight. She wore a loose matching coat with a tight vest and shirt beneath. The bright clothing features vibrant blues embroidered over reds with gold woven between and it had trim on the skirt” Here is Chanarach: 14) TESTEMENT MEMORIES Shallan is forced to confront what happened with Testament, and Radiant begins to see that she must help Shallan deal with her final truth. [Option 1] Shallan knows she killed a herald and that she sent her mother to damnation - possibly ending the world and starting the final desolation. [Option 2] Shallan does not know her mother was a herald, but will put that together in regards to the "hole" in her memory" Edited September 30, 2023 by teknopathetic 189 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSub Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 It's an interesting theory and if the Heralds were killing radiants because Ishar had a vision of the future that a radiant would cause the return, then this would be indirectly true. Although also caused by Ishar because of his prediction. (Anyone else not the biggest fan of Ishar?) I definitely agree, Taln didn't break. I had a theory on what allowed the fused to return but I can't remember right now. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 I both admire and hate the fact that I can totally see this being true... But at the same time, I can't help but wonder if I'm just grasping at straws. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danex Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 I’ve seen this theory before, and this does a really good job of presenting all the info that supports it. I definitely think this is true, and it ties into my own theory about Taln not even being insane. (Short summary of that theory: the imprisonment of BAM made the heralds all go insane, not the torture on Braize.) 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSub Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Dannex said: I’ve seen this theory before, and this does a really good job of presenting all the info that supports it. I definitely think this is true, and it ties into my own theory about Taln not even being insane. (Short summary of that theory: the imprisonment of BAM made the heralds all go insane, not the torture on Braize.) Taln isn't insane? There's definitely more to the heralds madness than being tortured. As far as we can tell they were fine at the last desolation... err previous desolation. And Taln is the only one who has been on Braize since then. At least most of the others have not. It could be BAM, I don't have a better alternative. Although i don't think we have any evidence as to how that's possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danex Posted February 2, 2021 Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, KSub said: It could be BAM, I don't have a better alternative. Although i don't think we have any evidence as to how that's possible. I could explain the whole theory if you’d like. Maybe I should just make a topic for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) I love this theory as it makes me wonder what Shallan's relationship with her mother would be if/when she comes face to face with Chanarach again. Plus, Brandon's accidental "Unnamed Mother" trope might actually be a plot point! Edited February 2, 2021 by teknopathetic 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post danex Posted February 2, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) It fits with the Pattern (hehe) of ShallanReveals™️ too. Reveal 1: ‘omg I killed my dad’ Reveal 2: ‘omg I killed my mom’ Reveal 3: ‘omg I killed my spren’ Reveal 4: ‘omg I killed my planet (indirectly by causing the cycle of desolations to resume by sending my herald mom back to Braize)’ Edited February 2, 2021 by Dannex 44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post teknopathetic Posted February 2, 2021 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted February 2, 2021 25 minutes ago, Dannex said: It fits with the Pattern (hehe) of ShallanReveals™️ too. Reveal 1: ‘omg I killed my dad’ Reveal 2: ‘omg I killed my mom’ Reveal 3: ‘omg I killed my spren’ Reveal 4: ‘omg I killed my planet (indirectly by causing the cycle of desolations to resume by sending my herald mom back to Braize)’ 57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 37 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: Take my storming upvote. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleatherDuster Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 This is such a fun theory. I would love so much for it to be true. Quick question: how was Shallan similar to a child of a Returned? 8 hours ago, teknopathetic said: 3) The Cryptics find out that one of the heralds has children or they discover a weird child who stands-out and is similar to the child of a Returned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said: This is such a fun theory. I would love so much for it to be true. Quick question: how was Shallan similar to a child of a Returned? Well I don’t know this part. I’m not sure if a child of a herald would have some special powers similar to how Vivenna can shape change. If you recall, Vivenna and Siri are descendants of a Returned. Vivenna also has a higher natural ability to awaken due to her heritage (confirmed by Vasher). Something there is different Maybe the divine breath is doing something special to cognitive shadow babies as an “Endowment” for one’s heirs is on brand. But the only children of cognitive shadows we know of are more invested then a regular person. So if Shallan is the child of a cognitive shadow, then there is the possibility that she looks different to someone as invested as Hoid. Maybe her aura is different? Maybe she bonds easier. Shallan might have something. It might even be a curse like a propensity to mental illness as well. Who knows. The point is Hoid seems flabbergasted to see Shallan at Middlefest. We assumed it was because she was bonded to Pattern. But it turns out Shallan only had a deadeye. So maybe Hoid saw a hint of cognitive shadow descendant power? And what is this dark presence Hoid says Shallan and her family are fighting? What did he see? Is it an unmade. Is it a cognitive shadow curse? Both? Who knows. Edited February 3, 2021 by teknopathetic 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: And what is this dark presence Hoid says Shallan and her family are fighting? What did he see? an Unmade 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: an Unmade Oh I know that. But it’s still unclear how that relates and what is going on exactly. Again, why the Davars? We have seen anyone with something similar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 11 hours ago, teknopathetic said: But it turns out Shallan only had a deadeye. She still seemingly had functional Lightweaving, so clearly it's more complicated than that exactly, and he may have been able to tell that somehow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrac Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 I have a WOB that supports this... kind of. Wetlander Speaking of the other Prologues… I have a looney theory that the assassin Liss is actually the Herald Chana in disguise. Peter Ahlstrom Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books. Miscellaneous 2017 (June 1, 2017) We have seen Shallan's mother onscreen in one of her flashbacks... 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) Shallan's mother's eyes are green (RoW 93) but one the official artwork for Chanarach her eyes are blue. On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said: Weird Questions: 1) What broke Taln? He is crazy and insensate for 4000 years and then one day he says "No thank you". Many of us can't figure out what could have broke Taln. He did not, Odium created a way to bypass the Oathpact with the Everstrom Quote 2) Why was the Davar family so connected to secret societies despite being a Vaden house of little note? They have connections to the Ghostbloods and the Ghostbloods have handed them a confirmed soulcaster AND possibly a Seon box. Why? When expanding your secret society to a new country you got to start somewhere. And the Davar family being a Veden family of little note but still of some note make them perfect for helping smugling things. Quote 3) Why did the cryptic go to Shallan as a child? Lift was chosen due to her strange connection to Cultivation, but why Shallan? And why twice? Connected to that, why is an dark influence attacking the Davar family? Why is Heleran given a shardblade and brought into the skybreakers? Pattern nearly stated why they wanted to give Shallan a second bound, they're interested in how humans make something new when they break, they're interested in Veil. As of why she had a spren many years before Jashna (but not that much before Kaladin, who have to had started bounding Syl before the scene where he take a quarter-staff for the first time) I have no idea. Note that the Davar estate would attract loads of cryptic with all the secret society stuff going on. For Heleran it's probably the normal procedure for skybreakers hopeful. The dark influence was probably not attacking just the Davar family but the whole region. On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said: 4) Why was Shallan's mother so quick to try and kill "one of them". We don't know how quick she was. Slow enough to get her lover in the house. Not sure for the "one of them" but Radiants did have a pretty bad reputation before Oathbringer. On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said: 5) What is Shallan's last secret. There is still something horrible in Shallan's past, and this has something to do with a Seon box and whatever Radiant was created to protect Shallan from. What is worse than killing testament? Radiant was not created to protect Shallan from her memory, that's Veil's job. Radiant's objective was to be what Shallan was not, a soldier. Her appearance is a mix of Jasnah and Chana because they are the two women Shallan associate the most with the concept of soldier. Edited May 11, 2021 by mathiau 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ba-Ado-Fisherman Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 Really cool theory and well thought out. There is one major issue for me. I don't think any Herald breaking is what started this last Desolation. The Everstorm is something new. The gem that Ulim is in was also brought on to Roshar by some other means. I have my own theories about Taln, and I agree that he didn't break. I think that's part of his characterization. But, I don't think Shallan caused the Desolation, because Odium had found a way around the Oathpact by way of the Everstorm. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ba-Ado-Fisherman Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Shallan's mother's eyes are green (RoW 93) but one the official artwork for Chanarach her eyes are blue. He did not, Odium created a way to bypass the Oathpact with the Everstrom When expanding your secret society to a new country you got to start somewhere. And the Davar family being a Veden family of little note but still of some note make them perfect for helping smugling things. Pattern nearly stated why they wanted to give Shallan a second bound, they're interested in how humans make something new when they break, they're interested in Veil. As of why she had a spren many years before Jashna (but not that much before Kaladin, who have to had started bounding Syl before the scene where he take a quarter-staff for the first time) I have no idea. Note that the Davar estate would attract loads of cryptic with all the secret society stuff going on. For Heleran it's probably the normal procedure for skybreakers hopeful. The dark influence was probably not attacking just the Davar family but the whole region. We don't know how quick she was. Slow enough to get her lover in the house. Not sure for the "one of them" but Radiants did have a pretty bad reputation before Oathbringer. Radiant was not created to protect Shallan from her memory, that's Veil's job. Radiant's objective was to be what Shallan was not, a soldier. Her appearance is a mix of Jasnah and Chana because they are the two women Shallan associate the most with the concept of soldier. Other than the eye color thing, which Brandon has messed up in the past FYI, none of these points disprove the idea of Chana being Shallans mother. I agree that Shallan didn't start the Desolation, but this actually seems like a plausible idea for who her mom is. Also there's a reply above about a WoB that sort of supports this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said: Other than the eye color thing, which Brandon has messed up in the past FYI, Then we should ask Brandon about Chana's eye colour, he probably won't RAFO that. Quote none of these points disprove the idea of Chana being Shallans mother. I agree that Shallan didn't start the Desolation, but this actually seems like a plausible idea for who her mom is. My objective with these was not to disprove that Chana was her mother, it was to reduce the need for her to be Quote Also there's a reply above about a WoB that sort of supports this. The WoB just says Chana was seen in WoK or WoR, I find it unlikely she's Liss since she has a shardblade and Chana's honourblade should still be in Shinovar but these two can't be the only red haired women we've seen in these two books. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, mathiau said: The WoB just says Chana was seen in WoK or WoR, I find it unlikely she's Liss since she has a shardblade and Chana's honourblade should still be in Shinovar but these two can't be the only red haired women we've seen in these two books. I think part of the connection people drew was that Ash pretty casually talks about getting a Shardblade as if it would be a simple task for her, so perhaps Chana would be able to as well, not necessarily that it's her Honorblade? But that's certainly not hard evidence for it by any means, I don't think there's much in either direction for the theory afaik. (And iirc most of the arguments work just as well for Vedel as well, but the Chana theory caught on more due to that WoB.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I think part of the connection people drew was that Ash pretty casually talks about getting a Shardblade as if it would be a simple task for her, so perhaps Chana would be able to as well, not necessarily that it's her Honorblade? But that's certainly not hard evidence for it by any means, I don't think there's much in either direction for the theory afaik. (And iirc most of the arguments work just as well for Vedel as well, but the Chana theory caught on more due to that WoB.) Wait, Ash talked that way? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 3, 2021 Report Share Posted February 3, 2021 42 minutes ago, mathiau said: Wait, Ash talked that way? In the Baxil interlude, she just casually muses to herself that maybe she should get a Shardblade. Quote The mistress returned, hair somewhat disheveled. She held out a hand. “Padded mallet, Baxil. There’s a full statue back there.” He responded, pulling the mallet out of the sack and handing it to her. “Perhaps I should get myself a Shardblade,” she said absently, putting the tool up on her shoulder. “But that might make this too easy.” “I wouldn’t mind if it were too easy, mistress,” Baxil noted. Her main concern isn't acquiring a Shardblade, she seems to think she can handle that part, it's that using one would make destroying things too easy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: In the Baxil interlude, she just casually muses to herself that maybe she should get a Shardblade. Her main concern isn't acquiring a Shardblade, she seems to think she can handle that part, it's that using one would make destroying things too easy. A lot of Shardblades have gone missing; it makes sense the heralds might know where some might be. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 Also. We know all the heralds are INSANELY strong and good at fighting she could probably walk onto the shattered planes and take one from a shardbearer without any trouble 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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