Chiri-Chiri<3

Wiggly rules and best practice / word of the law vs. spirit of the law

15 posts in this topic

Hello everyone.
I just read the forum rules and some things are unclear to me. And before making many mistakes, because I tend to walk on the lines that should not be crossed, I want to make sure where those lines are and what best practices I shall use?
I am referring to these posts: 

So, I am from Europe and I do not understand the US concept of swearing. To use a Cosmere example: Galladon finishes his senteces with a specific phrase. He does not want to offend someone, but it seemed offensive to me at first.

So in my experience the intent is the important factor. It is hard to talk about swear words without using them. But I can say " You are like an Apple" and I may use it to say that you are sweet, but I could also refer to the fact, that an apple is not sentient and I doubt the other persons kognitive capabilities. This is hard to be judged by others but the first thing mentioned in the best practice is "Assume the Best of People". So I think that kind of phrasing should be fine. I usually would not phrase it directly at a person but at his post/idea. 
But as far as I know swearing usually refers to some kind of specific words. I do not know which words are okay and which are not. In Europe we have actual free speech. There is only one thing you are not allowed to say, and that is denying the holocaust. The best example is poem by jan Böhmermann about the Turkish president where he just uses swear words and accuses him of extrem things like beastiality and pedophilia. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GBwQ4lPgo0)
And this is perfectly fine because it is satire. 
But it would be forbidden here?
I thought about a specific topic when this question came up in my mind. And due to my limited knowledge of the English language I do not know better or non swear words sometimes.
The Topic is a RoW spoiler but i´ll still put it in here because it is the best example. 

Spoiler

Is Taravangian still an idiot on some days and a genius on others after RoW?

Would this kind of swearing actually be blocked/forbidden? And what about swear words in quotes from the books or WOBs?

because of this huge cultural difference between Europe and the US I just want to make sure. And I do not care about offending someone, but I try not to do it without a reason and there are a lot of Slur word I do not know about. E.g. "Anaconda" is a snake, and I may want to say that a specific spren looks like this snake but others might think about the Nikki Minaj Song and interpret the word as sexual or slur. And there are clearly a lot of examples that are less obvious. So how is that handled here usually and what factors a relevant?



Another thing would be "Deliberate misgendering or misnaming other members."
So, one of my basic rules is not to lie. What do you mean by gender? There is this huge discussion which is not politcs but philosophy in my opinion.
What is truth. And for me truth is scientific truth. So basically XX is female and XY is male. Thats the truth for me. But if someone wants me to refer to them as the other gender and the definition of gender is not the topic of the discussion I deliberately use the gender they want me to use. But I assume that this is okay because a third party would have to complain? 
Usually I do not care about that when referring to a person but It is unclear to me. And if somehow this topic comes up, especially when we are discussing the gender of people not involved in the discussion, than again I should be allowed to state (my opinion) the scientific truth. That topic always confuses me and I assume people should accept the opinion of others and do not get offended by it. Has that ever  been an issue here?

The next thing i wonder is this(code of conduct): 
Deliberate revealing personal information of another community member (also known as doxxing) without their consent.

What is consent? E.g. I revealed that I have ADD in my (new) "Introduce yourself" post. Is this now consent that it can be shared everywhere in this forum? 
especially as quote or something or a are others allowed to mention it outside of that topic?
There is an ADHD specific topic and If I share somethinmg there I don´t feel like this automatically gives consent to everyone for sharing this. I´d prefer that a PN to ask for consent before sharing it would be best practice. But what are the rules (maybe i did not read it when reading the best practice and it is actually explained)


And what about the mupltiple acounts rule. I personnaly do not care. But if I want to share something private, I would usually creeate a new acount and make it as anonymous as possible. So I am not allowed to do that?

Next thing (from code of conduct):

Hateful, hurtful, oppressive, or exclusionary remarks, including offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion.

Does this also count if my remarks are against a fictional character especially if it is not my opinion but what I think is anothers character opinion?
For example: (Way of Kings Spoiler)

Spoiler

Shallan somewhat makes fun of Taravangians mental health in the books once and Jasnah corrects her.

And if i quote her, I am actually posting a hateful remark, but it should be okay in my opinion because it is neither me actually stating that as a fact/my thought , nor attacking a real person.


Next Thing(from code of conduct):
Deliberate intimidation
What do you mean by intimidation?
E.g. 
"If you do not stop posting about Chiri-Chiri being dumb, I am forced to spam you with a dozen quotes from the book to prove you wrong"
That would be an intimidation, but i assume it is not against the spirit ofthis law 

And Last but not least
Spoilers.
There are only rules for Book spoiler written?
So What about movies, TV, comics, anime, ..
And what about real life? Like the results of elections or sport events? 
 

 

And most impotantly.
politics is forbidden, 
i usually see politics as the small area between law and philosophy. And only in the real world practical application. So I can compare a book character with a real life politician but I should not make the politicans agenda the topic. And philosophies like capitalism, marxism, nihilism, anarchchism, socialism are not politics in my opionon as long as you do not talk about an actual real life situation where this is implemented. 
And what about discussing the politics of Roshar?

Spoiler

I assume I can critizise the politic use of a wit against a higprince as much as i want?


I am pretty sure that most of these things can be answered with links to other topics and general statements but if someone actually thinks about these topics specifically I´d like them to tell me if they want to discuss or not. So are you stating facts that chould not be discussed or are you sharing your opinion?

Thank you very much for reading this and helping make this forum a place everyone likes to be in. (I hate the term safe space, but this is another topic :D )

 

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In this case, they mean word of the law, so no naughty words in general. There's a swear word filter in place anyway, so don't worry about it too much. Idiot and stuff is fine, obviously don't go around calling people idiots though.

Political discussion is fine if it's relevant, as long as it isn't... flammable, I suppose but you are allowed to have opinions. From what I've seen, there's plenty of wiggle room unless something really big news happens. Discussions of direct political allegiances are pretty much always removed but political views are only subject to the policies mentioned on the thread. You can check out some contentious discussion's if you're curious, they're not difficult to find.

You can share details about yourself if you're comfortable with it, just keep in mind you're not just talking to us: it's a publically viewable forum, that means people not on the forum can also see what you're saying. Keep in mind we're all strangers on the internet. Some people want to interact only as fellow fans of a series, others are very much for people-to-people interaction, and use this place kind of like a social media platform, you do you.

Spoiler policies are in the stickies on the spoiler boards, just go to the RoW and Dawnshard spoiler area, check the pinned topics.

Stuff from other books and shows is up to your discretion and the thread you're posting in, just see how the discussion is going, and if unsure, just ask.

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4 hours ago, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

In Europe we have actual free speech. There is only one thing you are not allowed to say, and that is denying the holocaust. The best example is poem by jan Böhmermann about the Turkish president where he just uses swear words and accuses him of extrem things like beastiality and pedophilia. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GBwQ4lPgo0)
And this is perfectly fine because it is satire. 

We have actual free speach, we can literally say anything, anything at all,

in real life.

Online it is subject to whatever the staff wants, despite however much I dislike and wish to change it.

 

but anyway

for most of what you ask it's... context, mainly what the staff feels violates it they are judge jury and executioner in this, basically I would say if you see someone else doing it it's probably fine, comparing in book characters opinions to real life or quoting them is fine as far as I can tell.

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Thank you very much. Both of you!
That is pretty much what i expected to read :D
And I am sure that the stuff does a great job with that so I am happy now :)

About Private stuff. I think it is good if it is related to the topic but thanks for the reminder, that this is open for non members too. I was a long time not a member before joining but immediately forgot about that :D 
 

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6 hours ago, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

So, one of my basic rules is not to lie. What do you mean by gender? There is this huge discussion which is not politcs but philosophy in my opinion.
What is truth. And for me truth is scientific truth. So basically XX is female and XY is male. Thats the truth for me. But if someone wants me to refer to them as the other gender and the definition of gender is not the topic of the discussion I deliberately use the gender they want me to use. But I assume that this is okay because a third party would have to complain? 

Ummmm... you should probably do some reading from trans people as to what their experience is like.... It's more complicated than you seem to imply... Sex and gender are not the same. You should absolutely educate yourself here. But yes, if a person specifies their gender, please use their appropriate pronouns.

So though I know you want more clear lines, you probably aren't going to get super clear ones. Interpret the rules broadly. The rules are written broadly so that people don't feel the need to rules lawyer and try to push boundaries. You aren't doing that, but I'm just saying that's why things are the way they are. These apply to people and not fictional characters generally.

Re Politics: Philosophy can be fine. Mentioning present day politicians and political issues, not so much.

Spoilers: Obviously, the main thing we care about are Brandon books. Not sure what you want here. If someone enters a thread regarding other properties, expect there to be spoilers?

A lot of the time things depend on context, so it really depends on application, much like the law itself.

Multiple accounts are forbidden. Do not make multiple accounts, and for that matter, don't tell people private information on the internet. That's just always a bad idea.

6 hours ago, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

Deliberate intimidation
What do you mean by intimidation?
E.g. 
"If you do not stop posting about Chiri-Chiri being dumb, I am forced to spam you with a dozen quotes from the book to prove you wrong"
That would be an intimidation, but i assume it is not against the spirit ofthis law 

Well, spamming is not a thing permitted, and people shouldn't be saying that you're dumb (that would obviously be against the Code of Conduct as an attack on you), so this situation is not realistic for a few reasons. 

Intimidation can mean a lot of different things but is generally pretty extreme.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Online it is subject to whatever the staff wants, despite however much I dislike and wish to change it.

I think you will find places that advocate truly free speech on the internet are not particularly nice places to be, because it lets jerks be phenomenally jerkish and they spill all sorts of bile like racism, sexism, and all sorts of other horrible things. We are here to make a kind place to be. Those places are not kind and respectful because asshats absolutely use "hey my free speech!" as permission to be a gigantic ass. Screw people like that. If you look into the history on online moderation, you can see how things worked when there was no moderation on some platforms in the early internet. Sorry, this is just a massive pet peeve on people complaining about the lack of free speech online. We're a private entity, and we will forcefully moderate dickheads who are horrible, because that makes this place better. (Your statement about free speech is not actually accurate either, as there are limits to free speech in the US. They are narrow, but important. For example, you cannot make a true threat, and I think we all agree that is extremely sensible.)

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53 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think you will find places that advocate truly free speech on the internet are not particularly nice places to be, because it lets jerks be phenomenally jerkish and they spill all sorts of bile like racism, sexism, and all sorts of other horrible things. We are here to make a kind place to be. Those places are not kind and respectful because asshats absolutely use "hey my free speech!" as permission to be a gigantic ass. Screw people like that. If you look into the history on online moderation, you can see how things worked when there was no moderation on some platforms in the early internet. Sorry, this is just a massive pet peeve on people complaining about the lack of free speech online. We're a private entity, and we will forcefully moderate dickheads who are horrible, because that makes this place better. (Your statement about free speech is not actually accurate either, as there are limits to free speech in the US. They are narrow, but important. For example, you cannot make a true threat, and I think we all agree that is extremely sensible.)

we've been over this before so I'll keep it breif, while I am Extremly grateful for the staff and what they do, I love freedom more than safety, so if one has to go...

as for threats, I can still say "I'm going to kill x"  it only becomes a problem when I can actually and intend to do it. Though I will concede that is a matter of perception.

But reguardless that's just my opinion, and I do and will continue to support staff and their actions, I find the conditions of the shard if not ideal, acceptable.

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41 minutes ago, Frustration said:

as for threats, I can still say "I'm going to kill x"  it only becomes a problem when I can actually and intend to do it. Though I will concede that is a matter of perception.

I think is is fair to say that if someone is going around threatening to kill other members even if we knew they did not have the means (and with this being the internet we don’t really know that) it would be prudent for the staff to step in. We have a duty of care to the people here and need to take these things seriously. 
 

And if someone was doing it as a way to ‘prove to staff that they can’ then that would be a very good way to piss off a lot of the staff and also isn’t a very good faith way to interact with people. 

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2 minutes ago, LadyLameness said:

I think is is fair to say that if someone is going around threatening to kill other members even if we knew they did not have the means (and with this being the internet we don’t really know that) it would be prudent for the staff to step in. We have a duty of care to the people here and need to take these things seriously. 
 

And if someone was doing it as a way to ‘prove to staff that they can’ then that would be a very good way to piss off a lot of the staff and also isn’t a very good faith way to interact with people. 

Oh, I wasn't meaning on the shard, I was saying irl from a legal standpoint, my bad, should have specified

Edited by Frustration
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50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I love freedom more than safety, so if one has to go...

I mean, if you want to go hang around in corners of the internet where people are freely allowed to be terrible to each other for the lulz, be my guest. We, however, have a very reasonable desire for the Shard to not be an awful place with awful people saying awful things to each other.

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I find the conditions of the shard if not ideal, acceptable.

That's good, because we're not going to be changing them.

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12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Oh, I wasn't meaning on the shard, I was saying irl from a legal standpoint, my bad, should have specified

Okay :) your comment came across as quite directed hence my response.

 

Either way, if you’re talking generally then I feel like the conversation needs to move on from this thread as it’s not related and we shouldn’t get into a draw out discussion about legal theory. But to touch on what Kaymyth mentioned, places on the internet do exist that are freedom driven - largely the dark web - and they are unpleasant and contain a lot of quite horrific behaviour and dealings. 

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8 hours ago, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

Another thing would be "Deliberate misgendering or misnaming other members."

So, one of my basic rules is not to lie. What do you mean by gender? There is this huge discussion which is not politcs but philosophy in my opinion.
What is truth. And for me truth is scientific truth. So basically XX is female and XY is male. Thats the truth for me. But if someone wants me to refer to them as the other gender and the definition of gender is not the topic of the discussion I deliberately use the gender they want me to use. But I assume that this is okay because a third party would have to complain? 
Usually I do not care about that when referring to a person but It is unclear to me. And if somehow this topic comes up, especially when we are discussing the gender of people not involved in the discussion, than again I should be allowed to state (my opinion) the scientific truth. That topic always confuses me and I assume people should accept the opinion of others and do not get offended by it. Has that ever  been an issue here?
 

So, the scientific truth about gender and biological sex is not that simple. There's a lot of scientific study that's been done on this. Reams of data. Here are a few links:

UCLA - Challenging Gender Identity: Biologists Say Gender Expands Across A Spectrum, Rather Than Simply Boy And Girl
 
NY Times - Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say  - (this one might be behind a paywall)
 
Scientific American - The New Science of Sex and Gender
 
Harvard - Between the (Gender) Lines: The Science of Transgender Identity
 
AP News - Sciences Says: Sex and Gender Aren't the Same
 
World Health Organization (WHO) - Gender and Genetics
 
Medline Plus Encyclopedia - Intersex
 
That's a pretty basic primer, I think. Genetics are weird y'all. Chromosomes can trade genes - including the one that expresses biological sex, ending with a switch between X and Y chromosomes. A ton of different genes control hormone generation and receptors, leading to a huge variety of different hormone balances per individual. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to biological sex and gender expression.
 
None of this is simple.
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I agree with @Frustration

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

I love freedom more than safety, so if one has to go...

But I do not want to harm people and sometimes rules help with that. Like in the MMA, some rules are necessary so that no one dies. And I think the admins here do a great job with that!
 

23 hours ago, Chaos said:

So though I know you want more clear lines, you probably aren't going to get super clear ones.

Thats pretty much what i expected and hoped for. I am always afraid of to clear lines because I tend to break thos and this sometimes generates issues I do not want. I don´t want to think about every word i write. So this is perfect for me!
 

Quote

Re Politics: Philosophy can be fine. Mentioning present day politicians and political issues, not so much.

That is a nice clear line for me as is the multiple accounts one (which would actually be pretty much impossible to control)



 

PS: compliments!

23 hours ago, Chaos said:

I think you will find places that advocate truly free speech on the internet are not particularly nice places to be, because it lets jerks be phenomenally jerkish and they spill all sorts of bile like racism, sexism, and all sorts of other horrible things. We are here to make a kind place to be. Those places are not kind and respectful because asshats absolutely use "hey my free speech!" as permission to be a gigantic ass. Screw people like that. If you look into the history on online moderation, you can see how things worked when there was no moderation on some platforms in the early internet. Sorry, this is just a massive pet peeve on people complaining about the lack of free speech online. We're a private entity, and we will forcefully moderate dickheads who are horrible, because that makes this place better. (Your statement about free speech is not actually accurate either, as there are limits to free speech in the US. They are narrow, but important. For example, you cannot make a true threat, and I think we all agree that is extremely sensible.)

OMG! I love this response! because it has multiple layers and proofs the amount of free speech and especially the usage of bad language without actually offending someone.
 I do not want to share your personal information too much, even if it was mentioned in multiple youtube videos and in posts here, but this comment  of yours reminds me of my old old english professors style and this fact combined with the one fact i know about you really made me lough out loud after reading that answer of yours :D :D :D


 
 

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2 hours ago, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

Thats pretty much what i expected and hoped for. I am always afraid of to clear lines because I tend to break thos and this sometimes generates issues I do not want. I don´t want to think about every word i write. So this is perfect for me!

What I mean is: interpret the rules expansively. You should also always think about the words you write :) 

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On 2/3/2021 at 11:24 AM, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

That is a nice clear line for me as is the multiple accounts one (which would actually be pretty much impossible to control)

It actually isn't hard to control/monitor if you know what you are doing and understand computers, and I am confident that at least some of the staff do (I mean, they can run this forum efficiently, so they know how to do some stuff right.).

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It is fairly simple to detect multiple account usage.

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