Unpopular Rhythm of War opinions

[Elend Venture]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We already know that

  Reveal hidden contents

Soni

Is there a reason for why so many early Radiants were family? Including theorized ones, we have Tien and Kaladin, Jasnah and Elhokar, Dalinar and Renarin, Shallan and Helaran...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, so I can give you the "how the sausage is made," I call this the narrative reason vs the in-world reason. I can give you both.

In-world reasoning is that, when these bonds are forming, these human beings have bonds to other people, and that naturally leads the spren along those bonds. When Kaladin is forming a bond with a windspren [honorspren], and windspren [honorspren] start looking, or even other sapient spren start looking for people, they're going to notice. Remember, they're coming into the Physical Realm, it's very hard for them. They're doing this partially from the Cognitive Realm, searching and trying to get pulled through by the attention and the bond that is forming. They're naturally led to other people who are related. You could even say that, because of Tien, Syl found Kaladin.

I built this in for a narrative reason, and the narrative reason is: we generally are going to want to have a larger than average number of people among the core characters, who are involved in the magic system, and involved in the narrative. Because the magic system is so important in my books, I knew that I was gonna have a lot of friends and family of main characters end up with spren bonds.

But I don't think this is unusual. In fact, I think this is more true to life. It's not one of those coincidences we make up for a book; it's one of those coincidences that happens in life that seems unusual. It seems unusual if you look at it and say, "There are five people who became full-time in the publishing industry during the year Brandon was a senior at BYU. And they are all friends; in fact, they were all friends before they got published." This seems unusual; like, why didn't anyone else? There is nobody else that I know that broke in into the industry from that year. Maybe it happened, but nobody I knew who wasn't in our immediate friend group. Well, this is not that surprising if you actually look at it, because when one person breaks in, it becomes so much easier for everyone else that knew that person. Not just for networking reasons. (Networking reasons: obvious). The other obvious one is: the people are gonna know each other because they're all gonna be moving in the same circles, looking for each other without knowing it. They're gonna be looking for other good writers, and they're gonna be making connections with them. They're gonna notice when people ask questions in a class that are the right kinds of questions to be asking about getting published.

But even beyond those two things, once I broke in, Dan Wells has said before he realized, "Brandon did this; this is real. He actually did this. I can do this." And indeed, he went and broke in. Once this thing that seems impossible, whether it's becoming a full time novelist, or forming a spren bond and becoming a Knight Radiant; once you've seen somebody do it, it becomes way easier for you to conceive of yourself doing it. This is why C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien were in the same writing group. This is why you see this sort of thing happening all around the world and in all sorts of professions, that people who were friends together... Every time that people are like, "Wow, these three major Hollywood stars knew each other in high school." Well, yes, that is actually more likely to happen than not, because of all these reasons I've talked about.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

That's quite interesting, I really ought to read more WOBs.

[LuckyJim]

9 hours ago, Elend Venture said:

Rlain is an embittered outcast of both the Listeners/Singers and Humans. He lacks the correct personality and manor of emotional damage to bond a bondsmith type spren, as he does not  bridge, or unify; he separates; It would require that he be chosen purely because he wasn't human and that he was in the right place, which would oppose his character arc completely and entirely.

Wasn't he literally recognized as the "Bridger of Minds" by the end of the book?

Not saying he should have been a Bondsmith, but I thought the idea for his character was that being part of both human and singer groups makes him capable of helping them come together. Acting as an emulsifier, you might say.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

Stuff I deleted

Edited April 15, 2021 by Thaidakar the Ghostblood

[Elend Venture]

4 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Wasn't he literally recognized as the "Bridger of Minds" by the end of the book?

Not saying he should have been a Bondsmith, but I thought the idea for his character was that being part of both human and singer groups makes him capable of helping them come together. Acting as an emulsifier, you might say.

Brando: He is a bridger of minds.

Me: It's not like he's a bridger of minds or anything.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

The climax with Shallan and Veil in Lasting Integrity happened too fast. When I finally processed what was going on, the chapter was already over, and we didn’t see Shallan again until around 100 pages later.

[Ander Stormwindrunner]

Navani bonding the Sibling was a cool move, though I agree that it doesn't make too much sense given the Sibling's hatred of fabrials. I also feel like Rlain should have become a Windrunner or Willshaper, but I do like the idea of outcast characters becoming Enlighted Truthwatchers. Finally, I totally agree with all those threads about how there wasn't enough Dalinar and too much focus on Urithiru. Dalinar likely sat this one out because he starred in Oathbringer and will likely be really important in book 5, but I would have liked to see more of him. All that said, I really enjoyed this book and especially its artwork.

EDIT: my spellchecker corrected Navani as Natalie and I missed it. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ander Stormwindrunner

[Rainier]

The book was kind of a mess.

Too little focus on any one story means none of them were well-served.

The 'backstory character' got completely shafted and the whole book would have been better if it were skipped completely.

Jasnah's POVs were also useless, and it would have been better to skip them and keep Jasnah as mysterious as possible for the back 5. Especially the scenes with Ruthar, which were among the worst I've read in any of Sanderson's novels. Some have complained about her relationship with Hoid, as if Hoid has been chaste since he was 50 years old, but I think the real problem is showing too much of what should be mysterious characters.

The entire plot at Urithiru was poorly executed, and while there was an attempt to make it seem urgent, it ended up feeling contrived. The stakes just never seemed real to me.

Kaladin's arc should be more than simply rehashing what he did in book 1. The first time he contemplated suicide and chose life it was powerful. The tenth time it was boring, and cheapens everything.

Teft got done dirty. I'm OK with him dying, I'm OK with Moash killing him, I'm not OK with him being helpless the entire book just to die in order to make Kaladin go super saiyan like he's Goku on Namek. 

Now, for the real unpopular ones:

The entire series would be much, much better if it had simply focused on Kaladin and Dalinar, instead of trying to shoehorn 10 'main' characters into it. 

Each book has been worse than the one that came before. The Way of Kings is still the best book he's ever written, but the more he expands the series, the worse it gets. Obviously, this isn't unique to Sanderson, bad books don't get sequels and all, but it doesn't leave me hopeful for book 5.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The stakes just never seemed real to me.

I'll let you in on a secret

Spoiler

I've been having that problem with the whole genera for a couple years and I don't like it, so hard agree

 

14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The 'backstory character' got completely shafted and the whole book would have been better if it were skipped completely.

Vanli should have been the focus instead of Navani? or No flashbacks?

 

[Rainier]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Vanli should have been the focus instead of Navani? or No flashbacks?

Considering my other comment, that it should really be just Kaladin and Dalinar, then yes, no flashbacks would be better. These flashbacks did not serve any purpose and didn't move the story forward. They didn't add any mystery or build any tension. They were completely irrelevant to the events happening in the present.

The Kaladin backstory was pretty well done. The Shallan backstory less so. Dalinar was great, but came too early. I have lowered my expectations for Szeth, which is sad, because I had such high hopes for him and his flashbacks. 

Navani stole the show from Venli, who should have been our primary POV in Urithiru, if we are to respect the ten-books-for-ten-orders theme. I think a similar thing happened with Adolin, who became a much larger character than he otherwise would be, and it takes away from the focus.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

Responding to OP: This was the worst SA book, and one of my least favorite cosmere books.  There, I said it.  I read it.  I've tried rereading it, and I give up each time because I just can't.  

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Mistborn Surgebinder said:

Responding to OP: This was the worst SA book, and one of my least favorite cosmere books.  There, I said it.  I read it.  I've tried rereading it, and I give up each time because I just can't.  

Do you have any reasons for this?

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Do you have any reasons for this?

I've tried working it out in my brain, and here's what I've come up with:

Depressed Kal, while I completely understand it, is exhausting me at this point.

This book made me hate Lirin more than almost any other character in the entire cosmere.

Large portions of the book felt dry to me.

Other than that, I don't have great reasons.  I think it's just a preference thing.  I know a ton of people love it.  I know a lot of the Shardcast peeps adore it.  I just... don't.  Mostly it just gets me excited for book 5.

[apepi]

On 5/12/2021 at 5:02 PM, Ander Stormwindrunner said:

Navani bonding the Sibling was a cool move, though I agree that it doesn't make too much sense given the Sibling's hatred of fabrials. I also feel like Rlain should have become a Windrunner or Willshaper, but I do like the idea of outcast characters becoming Enlighted Truthwatchers. Finally, I totally agree with all those threads about how there wasn't enough Dalinar and too much focus on Urithiru. Dalinar likely sat this one out because he starred in Oathbringer and will likely be really important in book 5, but I would have liked to see more of him. All that said, I really enjoyed this book and especially its artwork.

EDIT: my spellchecker corrected Navani as Natalie and I missed it. 

Yeah, I agree with this. I would rather see her bond the Nightwatcher, seemed to fit her better than the Sibling.

I did not like the whole 'I am not a scholar' thing then realize that she is one.... It would have been better for her to realize that she isn't one and it be okay. She can Cultivate other people to be smart, help people, and that be okay. Helping people achieve stuff that you can't is okay.

[Honorless]

Agreed on those three things

The Venli / Eshonai backstory didn't add much to the story and I was really looking forward to it, how exactly Venli discovered the things she did but she turned out to have been completely led along. Still, it added some depth to her character and the final Eshonai chapter was a complete tear jerker

Kaladin nightmare thing that Odium and Moash planned. His PoVs in the first part, especially the short ones after his forced retirement were absolute gold. The nightmare sequences were pretty exhausting to read and probably should've been glossed over, with the readers only seeing the effects on Kaladin, thankfully that wasn't stretched out like I was dreading after reading the Odium Moash meeting.

The Jasnah & Hoid putting down the Highprince scene did seem pretty meh. Hoid seems more... human in this book, it's easier to see how fallible and smug he is. The Jasnah chapters were good in this book. I liked that she tried to get into the thick of a war rather than commanding from a distance. It wasn't a masterpiece scene but the intent behind it was quite nice. The contrast between Jasnah: the myth and the woman was another good bit. We saw how even her family saw her as this monolith, and we saw human Jasnah trying to get there. Sanderson seems to like demystification as a theme, it's more apparent with how he wrote Elantris and Dawnshard. I like mystery a lot but I don't dislike this approach either, and I definitely like demystified characters more than demystified locations, so no complaints on that front from me.

[Use the Falchion]

The Ghostblood's mission of economic power is really underwhelming. I mean, it makes sense, and I don't disagree with it, but it's just one of those cases where the answer could never be as cool as the mystery. 

[lipat97]

Im new here so I dont know what opinions are actually unpopular. A lot of other answers are just criticisms but I put all those in the RoW reactions mega thread. So imma go with an opinion that there is no way in hell is popular:

Jasnah shouldn’t be with Hoid, because Jasnah should be with Shallan

[apepi]

On 5/26/2021 at 4:07 PM, Honorless said:

Agreed on those three things

The Venli / Eshonai backstory didn't add much to the story and I was really looking forward to it, how exactly Venli discovered the things she did but she turned out to have been completely led along. Still, it added some depth to her character and the final Eshonai chapter was a complete tear jerker

Venli even post backstory it did not add that much, the best thing it did was giving us eyes on the Odium's forces. She barely did anything.

[Nahema]

I just finished the book, after about the half I just didn’t want to read further. A lot of the book didn’t work for me. But what buggers me the most ist Thaidakar.

Spoiler

That is - Kelsier. A mysterious person acting from the background? Kelsier. He had a wonderful arc in the Final Empire. His death was heartbreaking but perfect. It fit, and it had meaning. With SH it got cheap. And now he is everywhere, head of a cosmerewide mafia. I’m massively underwhelmed.

Most of what buggered me has already been listed, just one more unpopular opinion: the Fourth Bridge is a dumb tool to forcibly further the plot (yes, I know, Navani had those platforms but still) and evacuating Hearthstone as the first and only time to employ it, is stupid.

[Szeth_Pancakes]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:51 AM, Nahema said:

I just finished the book, after about the half I just didn’t want to read further. A lot of the book didn’t work for me. But what buggers me the most ist Thaidakar.

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That is - Kelsier. A mysterious person acting from the background? Kelsier. He had a wonderful arc in the Final Empire. His death was heartbreaking but perfect. It fit, and it had meaning. With SH it got cheap. And now he is everywhere, head of a cosmerewide mafia. I’m massively underwhelmed.

Most of what buggered me has already been listed, just one more unpopular opinion: the Fourth Bridge is a dumb tool to forcibly further the plot (yes, I know, Navani had those platforms but still) and evacuating Hearthstone as the first and only time to employ it, is stupid.

See, I would agree with you on the first thing, but it's what Brandon was plotting ever since the Final Empire. Thaidakar has a big role in the cosmere, and even though that hasn't been fulfilled yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As for the second thing, I think it's probably going to be used for something in KoW (and/or later on), since they were going on about how it would "change the state of war" yada yada yada. But if it isn't, then I'll probably agree with you on that.

[Letryx13]

On 2/8/2021 at 4:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

I think I would have been happier with Rlain or Dabid. Or maybe if there was a twist like the Sibling sometimes bonded more that one person at a time? That would have been neat. 

I was expecting Rlain to be a bond smith since the end of WoR, when I heard the bond smith second ideal.  I was expecting to swear to bring men and singers together. Truthwatcher fits him too, but having singer/listener as one of the most important radiants would have been interesting.

[Truthwatcher94]

1. Rlain should’ve been a Bondsmith or just a regular Truthwatcher. Navani being the Sibling’s Bondsmith made sense, I know. I just didn’t like that Rlain was made into a corrupted Truthwatcher. He was made more of an outcast than he already is. He saw and he “sees” both sides now. A very important requirement for the Thruthwatchers, understanding humans and Parshendi, with or without prejudice and all. A regular Truthwatcher, Brandon, from a semi-main character’s POV, is what I’m asking for, since Renarin’s too different and you want him to stay that way. Sighing heavily*

2. Dalinar-Kaladin climax scene is a bit too convenient for me. I know that the Kaladin-superhero comeback was something Brandon had been cooking in the back of his cosmere-vast and marvelous brain for a long time. Dont’t get me wrong, the scene was epic and one of the most awaited from Kaladin - his fourth Ideal. It was expected, we all saw it coming and we loved Brandon for it. But Dalinar’s involvement was a tad unnecessary and off, I don’t know, one moment he was flying to the other side of the world, the next he was forcing the Stormfather to do what he wants and help the poor boy. Boo-hoo. It was…easy? I was hoping that Kaladin resolved it with Syl and Tien (his intervention could be something he makes up in his mind from seeing his father falling?), on their own. 

3. Shallan’s arc just got messier and messier with every book. With the addition of a new Cryptic (would it be more appropriate to call Testament old?) all the calculations of how further along Shallan was with her oaths just went out of all my windows. I love my puzzles but the Davar heroine is testing my patience. I used to hate her in the first book, loved her in the second and third but by the fourth, I’m worried that Brandon may have overdone it. 
 

4. Just kill Moash! I don’t want any redemption arc or even a possibility of him having one.  

[Karger]

I thought Kaladin's fights at the tower were too long and a bit repetitive.  It felt kind of like watching some one else play a video game.  Since Kaladin could not loose at all without the entire tower loosing all hope and the sibling dying that made a lot of the early interactions end the same way since it was unfeasible to let Kaladin win either.  I think the book could have been significantly better if Brandon had just cut some of it.  Honestly Kaladin just reviewing what happened to some of the nodes in a flashback would have worked.  It is not like anything particularly important happened mid fight.  I feel like the time would have been better spent watching Kaladin do some mission impossible type stuff while struggling with his internal issues. 

[IcaroRibeiro]

This books suffers from being designed and written specifically as a set up to the fifth book. All 3 books so far spend an insane amount of chapters and mini plot only for the sake of character development and making lighthearted interactions to break tension. The first 200 pages dedicated to insert some sort of 1 year climax further deepened this, as in other books those chapters would be instead dedicated to right mini stories to reveal more details of the cast 

This one just need to have so much plot going that we have almost no space for the same feeling, and the most sacrificed character was for sure Venli

It's still hard to emphatize with her, her interactions with her crew were small and punctual, this was fairly frustrating and she was supposed to share protagonism with Navani. I think Sanderson wasn't able to create a more interesting plotline for her and her crew without compromising the books structure after all this is still a massive 1200 pages book and he couldn't spare a single more chapter 

Personally, I would sacrifice most of Kaladin chapters if this meant to get more Venli. Indeed I could remove Kaladin from part 3 (and cut many POVs of part 4) altogether and the book would still be mostly the same. But seems like Sanderson liked too much the idea of creating an epic moment for Kaladin's 4th ideal to happen, so yeah, poor Venli 

[IcaroRibeiro]

About Shallan 4th truth

It was good and actually makes her history much more logical and believable, but the emotional impact behind it could have done better. I mean, this could be the whole excuse used by Spren (mostly Honorspren and Inkspren) all along blocking them from getting more support from Shadesmar i.e. Shallan feeling responsible for the humans losing the war more and more

 

I don't quite get why nobody suggested this for Sanderson, they even used Testament in the trial to prove their point, if this was an open point all along then we could have a reason for Shallan fear of being abandoned and damned for what she have done 

[An Inkspren]

On 14/02/2021 at 3:49 AM, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I really don't like the Kaladin establishing a mental health system angle of RoW. It all seems a bit too pat, a bit too schlocky. 

The war of Loss, where the Hierocracy was defeated by Sadees the Sunmaker and the Vorin church was disbanded, and the modern Roshar ardentia was established, happened in 675. I find it hard to believe that in the the 500 years since the formation of the devotaries,  that the only proscribed treatment the ardents could come up with for people with suicidal ideations was to lock them up in windowless cells away from other people.

We are quite clearly led to believe that Kaladin's sympathetic situation (he experienced the same thing, ergo he's an expert) and his training as a surgeon makes him uniquely qualified to unlock the mystery that depression and the resultant suicidal tendencies of the depressed aren't ameliorated by forced isolation and confinement in darkened cells. The whole plot line felt like a curated, proscribed emotional journey and was the opposite of powerful for me. It felt forced and hokey, that Kaladin was the one that figured this out and was the one making a large institutional change. 

Not content to be Stormblessed the Hero, and the father of Clinical Psychiatry, I forsee our boy Kal inventing penicillin, figuring out how to do soulcast organ transplants, and solving the ecological disaster that is brewing from the wholesale slaughter of Chasmfiends and the Everstorm blowing the wrong way. Why not. 

Couldn't agree less. How long did us Earth humans took to realise that locking up crazy people was not the best course of action? More than 500 years, I don't see why it would take less on Roshar.