Things we still don't know about Rosharan magics

[Gilphon]

So I just decided to try to get this all down in digital ink, instead taking up space in my head. Note, however, that what I'm talking about here are what I will loosely call 'unfulfilled promises'; questions that we've been implicitly promised we'll find out the answer to one day. We don't, for example, know which spren grants Nimbleform, but I don't really feel like we need to find that out. 

Surgebinding

• What happens when a Radiant swears the Fifth Ideal?
• Did Ishar change the way the magic works, or did he just command them to organize into orders?
• How did the Fused get sorted into the various Brands? Do the Brands have guiding philosophies like the Radiant Orders do?
• We're still missing a whole bunch of resonances. I think the Windrunners are still the only one we know for certain?
• I don't think we've seen anything from the Surge of Tension. There's a WoB out there describing the basic concept, but that's all. Maybe some of the things Dalinar's done were Tension, but that's so hard to separate from general Bondsmith weirdness.
• The Division Fused. How exactly is a more internal form of Division going to work?
• What was Lezian doing? Like, the surge of Transportation, fine, sure, but what exactly was the deal with his husks, from a realmatic perspective?
• Bondsmiths sure are weird! Their powers don't really seem to fit into the whole 'ten surges' paradigm; more like general Connection magic. And then there's that line about how they existed and were named before humans came to Roshar. I don't think this is just referring to Ishar. It feels like the Bondsmiths are something older than the other Orders that could shoehorned into that framework.

Fabrials

• How are Reversers made, and why do they use amethysts instead of rubies?
• There are still 7 of the main Allomantic metals where we don't know what they do. Well, technically 8, because of steel, but come on, that's obviously Repulsers. 
• What's up with the different varieties of Soulcaster? Why are some limited to a single essence, whereas others can switch between a few?
• Why are Surge Fabrials other than Soulcasters so rare? I don't think we've seen any aside from Nale's regrowth Fabrial.

Void Stuff

• We still know basically nothing about Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish. Our understanding of Ba-Ado-Mishram is pretty shaky. And I'm not convinced we fully understand Moelach
• There are few weird things going on in Kholinar Palace that seem linked to the Unmade, but don't quite match the effects we know about. There was a time dilation effect, and the Queens Guard was acting very weird.
• The Thunderclasts. What are they, exactly? Singer souls, like the Fused, or something else?
• Voidbinding. Is still a big question mark. I feel confident that Renarin is a Voidbinder, but there's got to be more to Voidbinding than just 'bonding an Enlightened spren'. Everything seems to suggest that Renarin is the first of his kind, but Voidbinding must've previously existed in some form or Khriss wouldn't have known to write about it in the Ars Arcanum. 
• Forms of Power. There are seven whose names we've heard, but only two we've seen in action. And I'm willing to bet that there are some others we haven't of. Almost as big a question mark as Voidbinding, these guys. I feel like we're in a similar position with them as we were with Fabrial pre-RoW; we don't even know how much we don't know. 

 

Aaand that's everything I can think of. Feel free to add to this list if you can think of a question I've forgotten. Or subtract from if you think you have any answer to one of my questions. 

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

There are few weird things going on in Kholinar Palace that seem linked to the Unmade, but don't quite match the effects we know about. There was a time dilation effect, and the Queens Guard was acting very weird.

have you been reading the notes I did on my Voidbinding theory? Because I also can't make sense of it.

12 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Aaand that's everything I can think of. Feel free to add to this list if you can think of a question I've forgotten. Or subtract from if you think you have any answer to one of my questions. 

There is another set of powers, aside from those listed.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

How are Reversers made, and why do they use amethysts instead of rubies?

An important note: they don't have to use amethysts. Rushu in Dawnshard explains that amethysts are traditionally used, but that rubies work just as well, and in fact the one Rysn tests uses rubies. Which makes their creation even more curious, as it means making a reverser is not just using a different gem. (I'd guess using amethysts instead is just for convenience in telling them apart from normal conjoiners, honestly.)

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

Feel free to add to this list if you can think of a question I've forgotten.

There's also this line from the Ars Arcanum that raises a whole big mystery of its own:

Quote

My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings.

I think you got most other big things?

Edit: ah, Frustration mentioned the other abilities already.

Edited February 1, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Halyo_Alex]

37 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings.

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest Cultivationbinding. Or... Warbinding? Blending a surge and it's voidish counterpart (like futuresight and Illumination)?

...Wait, isn't that sort of what Renarin actually has? He makes those little light orbs on the 4th bridge, seems to make an illusion/possible-alternate-self vision of Moash when Kaladin freezes up, and he can make the future sight windows visible to others, like a lightweaving.

It certainly doesn't seem like Renarin has the EXACT same power as Moelach, and Voidbinding "usually" originates with the Unmade, but now that we know about Warlight and stuff, what if Glys has something between Illumination and "Prediction"?

Edited February 2, 2021 by Halyo_Alex
clarity

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest Cultivationbinding. Or... Warbinding? Blending a surge and it's voidish counterpart (like futuresight and Illumination)?

The weird thing is, Brandon's said the three magic systems of the Stormlight Archive are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials, and that Voidbinding is the only major magic system we haven't seen. So the line in the AA is.... confusing.

If it's a mix between Voidbinding and Surgebinding, though, I could certainly see Brandon counting it under Voidbinding if it's close enough. Hmm.

[danex]

MAGIC PURELAKE FISH.

17 hours ago, Gilphon said:

We're still missing a whole bunch of resonances. I think the Windrunners are still the only one we know for certain?

We know the windrunner’s? I thought we only knew the lightweaver’s. The whole memory thing right?

[Shard of Reading]

1 hour ago, Dannex said:

We know the windrunner’s?

Windrunners get extra squires.

[KSub]

Excellent topic. I've been theorizing on a lot of these in different threads. Ie voidbinding and how we are missing magic systems. 

One of the things from your list that I have a hint at is the Bondsmiths. The Heralds became the Heralds after coming to Roshar but Ishar had powers before coming to Roshar as did others. This is what caused the destruction of Ashyn. We also know that Ishar is the binder of God's, and that the humans did something that convinced Honor to bring them to Roshar. I think the bondsmiths are splinters of Honor responsible for uniting humanity just as Dalinar has been tasked to do. They are equivalent to Endowments Returned. 

[danex]

2 hours ago, Shard of Reading said:

Windrunners get extra squires.

right, I forgot. 

[Gilphon]

On 2021-02-01 at 6:42 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings.

To wildly speculate on this: The magic system Khirss brings up right before this line are Surgebinding and Voidbinding. She then speculates that it may be the Old Magic, but dismisses it. And then she launches into a big analysis of Fabrials. So she's not talking about any of those things.

But- what paradigm is she referring to, that surgebinding and voidbinding fit into but fabrials and the Old Magic do not. Well, we often think of Surgebinding as being a combination of Honor and Cultivation. And we don't know a lot about Voidbinding, but it's 10-centric, which suggest there's Honor in there, and it comes from the Unmade and has Void in the name, which suggest there's Odium in there. So, perhaps it's an Honor/Odium combination magic system. 

If that's the case, the third magic system that completes that paradigm would one made using a combination of Cultivation and Odium. So perhaps the 'even more esoteric abilities' are the Forms of Power? Or perhaps they're something that was purely theoretical until Venli happened- which would be a better fit for the WoB; it's not quite a magic system, because Venli is the only one who could do stuff with it, but in theory if Radiant Regals became more common it could blossom into a new magic system. 

On 2021-02-02 at 10:55 AM, Dannex said:

MAGIC PURELAKE FISH.

Hmm. The purelake fish had occurred to me, but I mostly dismissed them as 'well, they probably just have a spren-bond. That's not that strange at this point.' Forgetting that we don't know what they even get out of the bond. So they is something there that we still don't know. I'll not totally convinced that that's something we've been promised an answer to, though. We wouldn't even know for certain that the fish were magic if it wasn't for WoBs. 

On 2021-02-02 at 10:55 AM, Dannex said:

We know the windrunner’s? I thought we only knew the lightweaver’s. The whole memory thing right?

For the sake of completeness, I tried to avoid to making too many distinctions between 'things where we have a pretty good guess' and 'things where we just have no idea'. Shallan's memory definitely seems supernatural, so that's a good guess for the Lightweaver resonance. But we don't actually know that that's what's going there.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

And we don't know a lot about Voidbinding, but it's 10-centric, which suggest there's Honor in there

I disagree. I'm of the opinion that the number is based on the planet and perception related to that, rather than the Shard. In this particular case, Rosharans believe in ten fundamental forces, while the Braizian residents, the Fused, only believe in nine.

3 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So perhaps the 'even more esoteric abilities' are the Forms of Power?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh. You know what, it could very well be that! They're certainly an esoteric set of abilities... Khriss never actually says this more esoteric set is based around any particular number, does she?

[KSub]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree. I'm of the opinion that the number is based on the planet and perception related to that, rather than the Shard. In this particular case, Rosharans believe in ten fundamental forces, while the Braizian residents, the Fused, only believe in nine.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh. You know what, it could very well be that! They're certainly an esoteric set of abilities... Khriss never actually says this more esoteric set is based around any particular number, does she?

I think that could be it.

'The fused have odiums magic

- the regals forms of power are odium-cultivation hybrid

-the Singer forms are cultivations magic 

-surgebinding is  honor-cultivation hybrid

-maybe the bondsmiths are honors magic?

-voidbinding is honor-odium hybrid or is it a blend of all 3?

Maybe? Thoughts?

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, KSub said:

I think that could be it.

'The fused have odiums magic

- the regals forms of power are odium-cultivation hybrid

-the Singer forms are cultivations magic 

-surgebinding is  honor-cultivation hybrid

-maybe the bondsmiths are honors magic?

-voidbinding is honor-odium hybrid or is it a blend of all 3?

Maybe? Thoughts?

Singer forms are not magic

but Old magic is.

And Fused just use corrupted surgebinding, Voidbinding is probably just Odium.

[yulyulk]

On 2/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, Gilphon said:

Did Ishar change the way the magic works, or did he just command them to organize into orders?

I have a question about this and this topic seems a good place to ask. So my understanding was...In TWoK, flashback Nohadon complains about his Radiants to Dalinar. Then he writes The Way of Kings to inspire the Radiants(?) and that's where journey before destination comes from. But if Ishar was the one to set the oaths upon the radiants...was there a different first ideal before Nohadon? Or am I just misremembering the TWoK flashbacks. 

[Gilphon]

Just now, yulyulk said:

I have a question about this and this topic seems a good place to ask. So my understanding was...In TWoK, flashback Nohadon complains about his Radiants to Dalinar. Then he writes The Way of Kings to inspire the Radiants(?) and that's where journey before destination comes from. But if Ishar was the one to set the oaths upon the radiants...was there a different first ideal before Nohadon? Or am I just misremembering the TWoK flashbacks. 

The distinction here is that Nohadon is complaining about Surgebinders, not Radiants. Our understanding is that people were bonding spren for quite some time before the Radiant orders were established. And then eventually Ishar got fed up with that and made the Orders be a thing- which presumably happened after Nohadon's day. Like in the first post-Nohadon desolation, perhaps. 

What we don't know is if Ishar used some crazy Bondsmith stuff to actually change the way the magic works, or if he just wanted them to be better organized. The wording of the First Oath implies the former to me, as does seeing just how crazy Ishar's powers are, but it's also possible that the First Oath wasn't worded as strictly before Nohadon. Like we already know that what's important is the idea behind the Oath, not the words themselves, so maybe all Nohadon did was articulate the First Oath particularly well. 

[KSub]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Singer forms are not magic

but Old magic is.

And Fused just use corrupted surgebinding, Voidbinding is probably just Odium.

Singer forms are bonding spren to change their forms and grant special abilities. It's pretty similar to surgbinding in that context. Maybe this is Honors magic as it is a bond.

I forgot about the old magic. But we know so little it's hard to say what it is.

The fused as far as we have seen don't have spren. They possess singers and transform them into a fused. So it almost seems like the fused are spren. On the other hand, if voidbinding is the corrupted truthwatchers that we have seen then it would be a combination of all three shards powers.  

[Frustration]

Just now, KSub said:

Singer forms are bonding spren to change their forms and grant special abilities. It's pretty similar to surgbinding in that context. Maybe this is Honors magic as it is a bond.

They don't gain powers so much as physical/mental changes, i would argue for them being a natural outgrowth of the functions of the Cosmere.

1 minute ago, KSub said:

I forgot about the old magic. But we know so little it's hard to say what it is.

Pure cultivation, in reguards to this, it would be weird if Cultivation is sitting around having the Nightwatcher preform Honor's magic.

2 minutes ago, KSub said:

The fused as far as we have seen don't have spren. They possess singers and transform them into a fused. So it almost seems like the fused are spren.

Honorblades don't have spren either.

4 minutes ago, KSub said:

On the other hand, if voidbinding is the corrupted truthwatchers that we have seen then it would be a combination of all three shards powers.  

Voidbinding comes from the Unmade, not just Sja-Anat.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

The wording of the First Oath implies the former to me, as does seeing just how crazy Ishar's powers are, but it's also possible that the First Oath wasn't worded as strictly before Nohadon. Like we already know that what's important is the idea behind the Oath, not the words themselves, so maybe all Nohadon did was articulate the First Oath particularly well.

Eshonai doesn't even have to say anything, and the different interpretations of the First Ideal are capable of being mutually exclusive. So I'd say the First Ideal is still pretty broad, and...  honestly, I'm not even sure what it represents. The exact wording doesn't matter, nor is any wording required, an awareness of the bond isn't required, even a general shared idea isn't required...

[Gilphon]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They don't gain powers so much as physical/mental changes, i would argue for them being a natural outgrowth of the functions of the Cosmere.

You're splitting hairs here, I think. Magic in general is a natural outgrowth of the functions of the Cosmere.

There are, I think, two useful definitions for what can be considered magic in this context:

1. Would Khirss consider it weird enough to be worth researching?
2. Is it only possible through the use of Investiture?

I think the Singers forms unambiguously meet the second definition, and while we don't for sure about the first, it would surprise me if Khriss had no interest in all. 

Whether or not something is a magic system is a harder question. But really I wouldn't call the Old Magic a magic system either. That'd be a bit like calling the Thrill a magic system.  It's just a weird thing that a very powerful spren can do to people. And that a Shard can imitate when she's so inclined. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

You're splitting hairs here, I think. Magic in general is a natural outgrowth of the functions of the Cosmere.

Yes but it would work, and has when there are no shards present, and while yes First of the sun has that to, shards have been involved there.

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

It's just a weird thing that a very powerful spren can do to people. And that a Shard can imitate when she's so inclined. 

It's something the Shard does and let's the spren do becasue she wants her to learn.

[mathiau]

On 01/02/2021 at 11:13 PM, Gilphon said:

 

• We're still missing a whole bunch of resonances. I think the Windrunners are still the only one we know for certain

 

We don't even know the Windrunners' one for certain, yes they have Force of Squire but Kaladin seems to believe him having be far too quick in learning to use a spear comes from Syl and the Windrunners are known to master they're weapon more than other orders, more even than the Stoneward, the order known to be the most similar to it's Herald and whose Herald was the best duelist of the 10.

On 01/02/2021 at 11:13 PM, Gilphon said:

 

• The Division Fused. How exactly is a more internal form of Division going to work?

 

We've got that Death Rattle

They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn...

—Collected on Palahishev 1172, 21 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a baker's apprentice

Quote

• There are still 7 of the main Allomantic metals where we don't know what they do. Well, technically 8, because of steel, but come on, that's obviously Repulsers. 
  

We actually don't even know of the Allomantic 16 all have an effect, nor if silver will have any effect. Also, I don't remember every metal Navani talked about so I'm not sure if you counted Aluminum in the 9 known, but we don't know it's effect (if any). Seperating two the parts of an inverser is a normal property of aluminium, not a magically added effect like it has in each of the metalic arts.

Quote

Why are Surge Fabrials other than Soulcasters so rare? I don't think we've seen any aside from Nale's regrowth Fabrial.

Was it even comfirmed as a Regrowth Fabrial? Taht thing doesn't fit with what we know of regrowth at all.

Quote

We still know basically nothing about Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish. Our understanding of Ba-Ado-Mishram is pretty shaky. And I'm not convinced we fully understand Moelach

And the Diagram said each of them had some future sight power, still no news about that.

Quote

• The Thunderclasts. What are they, exactly? Singer souls, like the Fused, or something else?

I'm beting on Tension fused

Quote

• Forms of Power. There are seven whose names we've heard, but only two we've seen in action. And I'm willing to bet that there are some others we haven't of. Almost as big a question mark as Voidbinding, these guys. I feel like we're in a similar position with them as we were with Fabrial pre-RoW; we don't even know how much we don't know. 

Some of them have power very similar to Surges and Voids, it's likely each give some power over one Surge/Void/Life. Honestly at  this point I'm assuming the Void of Division makes Lightning and the Life of Division is decay.

(If it was not clear I'm using Life and Voids as respectively Cultivation and Odium's version of each Surge)

On 02/02/2021 at 1:19 AM, Halyo_Alex said:

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest Cultivationbinding. Or... Warbinding? Blending a surge and it's voidish counterpart (like futuresight and Illumination)?

...Wait, isn't that sort of what Renarin actually has? He makes those little light orbs on the 4th bridge, seems to make an illusion/possible-alternate-self vision of Moash when Kaladin freezes up, and he can make the future sight windows visible to others, like a lightweaving.

It certainly doesn't seem like Renarin has the EXACT same power as Moelach, and Voidbinding "usually" originates with the Unmade, but now that we know about Warlight and stuff, what if Glys has something between Illumination and "Prediction"?

For Cultivation's power's name, Lifebinding?

Renarin also made a perfected version of Adolin when he healed his wrist in Oathbringer. His light bubble things are too different from normal lightweaving to be the surge of Ilumination, it's either the Void or Life of Ilumination, probably the Void.

On 02/02/2021 at 3:01 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The weird thing is, Brandon's said the three magic systems of the Stormlight Archive are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials, and that Voidbinding is the only major magic system we haven't seen. So the line in the AA is.... confusing.

If it's a mix between Voidbinding and Surgebinding, though, I could certainly see Brandon counting it under Voidbinding if it's close enough. Hmm.

Brandon stance on Fabrials being the third art depends change each time you ask. Sometime it's just "Fabrials are part of it"

12 hours ago, KSub said:

I think that could be it.

'The fused have odiums magic

The Fused have Honour magic, their powers works exactly like the Surges.

12 hours ago, KSub said:

-surgebinding is  honor-cultivation hybrid

The Lightweaver descritpion from the official quizz does imply the knights saw themself as Honour-Cultivation hybrids. I disagree with them though, I see far more of Whimsy than Cultivation in the lightweavers. And while we know fusing two Shards don't alway have the same reasult it's unlikely there'd be ten different possibilities

1 hour ago, KSub said:

The fused as far as we have seen don't have spren. They possess singers and transform them into a fused. So it almost seems like the fused are spren.

Bodiless cognitive shadows have been described by Brandon as "basicaly a spren", it seems to me that Fused are that while they slumber.

Quote

On the other hand, if voidbinding is the corrupted truthwatchers that we have seen then it would be a combination of all three shards powers.  

It depends on how Enlightenment works. If it's purely additive then yes Glys is of all three but if it's partially transformative he could be pure Odium, C-O, H-O or all three. It has to be at least partially additive since it gives sapience to lesser sprens but we don't know if it's only that.

 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Kaladin seems to believe him having be far too quick in learning to use a spear comes from Syl

Spiritual Mumbo Jumbo:

Quote

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Was it even comfirmed as a Regrowth Fabrial?

Seems to be:

Quote

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. You'll notice that Soulcasters aren't the only fabrial that access a Surge, however. They're just the one most commonly used. [...]

ebilutionist

Ah yes, now that I think of it Navani's conjoined-gem fabrials seem to utilize Gravitation and perhaps the heating one uses Abrasion(?) to produce heat. Or are there others I did miss?

Brandon Sanderson

I was referencing a Regrowth fabrial, actually, which I believe has appeared several times.

ebilutionist

Isn't the Regrowth fabrial incredibly rare? I was under the impression it disappeared with the Recreance and only Nin's reappearance brought it back. AFAIK, only a Radiant in Dalinar's vision and a Herald have actually used it so far.

Brandon Sanderson

Their rarity depends on the time period in question. But yes, I'd list them as incredibly rare.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 20, 2016)

 

19 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Taht thing doesn't fit with what we know of regrowth at all.

How does it not fit?

[mathiau]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

How does it not fit?

I can't believe I said "not at all", I meant "not really".

Regrowth repair the body, which as Sazed proved is not enough to reattach the soul to the body, which is what that thing did. I guess it means high oath Regrowth can actually reattach souls.

Also, I note Brandon said Regrowth fabrial and not Progression fabrial. Could be important.

[KSub]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They don't gain powers so much as physical/mental changes, i would argue for them being a natural outgrowth of the functions of the Cosmere.

It sounds a lot like powers granted by shards to me.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Pure cultivation, in reguards to this, it would be weird if Cultivation is sitting around having the Nightwatcher preform Honor's magic.

I agree with what you're saying.  I meant we don't know enough about the old magic to say if it's equivalent to surgebinding.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Voidbinding comes from the Unmade, not just Sja-Anat.

We really don't know anything about voidbinding still. It is from the unmade but sja Anat is an unmade, so it doesn't rule out that it is exclusive to what she is doing.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Regrowth repair the body, which as Sazed proved is not enough to reattach the soul to the body, which is what that thing did. I guess it means high oath Regrowth can actually reattach souls.

Lift brings back Gawx in Words of Radiance, and Wyndle believes in Edgedancer that if she had been there immediately she might even have been able to heal the girl Nale killed with his Shardblade.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also, I note Brandon said Regrowth fabrial and not Progression fabrial. Could be important.

Probably just similar to how Soulcaster fabrials can only Soulcast certain Essences, the fabrials are just more limited in their application of the Surge and can only use a subset of its power?