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Surgebinding and Hemalurgy


ScadrianTank

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It would ultimately depend on where the Fused's Surgebinding comes from.  If it's innate to them, then it might be possible though we would have to confirm if the body's bindpoints even matter considering a Fused is essentially a Spren inside a gemheart.

The other possibility is that the Fused's Surgebinding comes from their Bond to Odium, which would explain why BAM was able to make Fused.

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13 hours ago, LabRat said:

It would ultimately depend on where the Fused's Surgebinding comes from.  If it's innate to them, then it might be possible though we would have to confirm if the body's bindpoints even matter considering a Fused is essentially a Spren inside a gemheart.

The other possibility is that the Fused's Surgebinding comes from their Bond to Odium, which would explain why BAM was able to make Fused.

BAM was not able to make Fused, she maked Regals/Forms of Power. But not Fused. Only Odium can make Fused.

And Im not sure Fused has anything inside Gemheart, rather than having body altered to Surgebind. Also, because Leshvi is able to turn against Odium, her ability is probably innate. Only Fused Reincarnation is something from Odium (At the end of Oathbringer he is talking to Turash he can take off this ability from him).

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2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

BAM was not able to make Fused, she maked Regals/Forms of Power. But not Fused. Only Odium can make Fused.

You're right, my bad. Though that does indicate that the resurrections and the Surgebinding are separate things, IMO that makes it more likely that Surgebinding comes from a Bond rather than a granted/innate ability that could be Hemalurgically stolen.

 

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

And Im not sure Fused has anything inside Gemheart, rather than having body altered to Surgebind. Also, because Leshvi is able to turn against Odium, her ability is probably innate. Only Fused Reincarnation is something from Odium (At the end of Oathbringer he is talking to Turash he can take off this ability from him).

In Kaladin's first fight with a Fused, we see Syl direct Kaladin towards the gemheart, and when the Sylblade hits the Gemheart the fused dies. There might be more to a Fused's takeover of a Listener, but they do definitely inhabit the gemheart.

As for Odium being able to take away Turash's Reincarnation vs Leshwi's keeping her Surgebinding, it could be that the reincarnation is an active process on the part of Odium, while the Surgebinding is a passive Connection that neither party can actively sever once it's created.

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19 hours ago, LabRat said:

If it's innate to them, then it might be possible though we would have to confirm if the body's bindpoints even matter considering a Fused is essentially a Spren inside a gemheart.

If my read of RoW was correct and I haven't misinterpreted anything, the fact that varieties of Fused are called "brands" seems to indicate that is innate.

One of my issues on the topic comes more from the mechanics of Fused getting Singer bodies. If they function like a Cognitive Shadow, a Divine Breath, and a Surge combined into a single entity, once they get a body - they should behave similarly to a Returned. But the ease with which they can leave their body made me think about whether the body is even part of the soul in their case. Like you can't steal regular Breath from a Nalthian because it's not a part of their soul, are the Fused even connected enough to the corpse they possess to spike something to of it?

And if this is true, you might have an easier time stealing from a Fused in their spren form in the Cognitive Realm.

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19 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

And if this is true, you might have an easier time stealing from a Fused in their spren form in the Cognitive Realm.

This would also mean that you could steal a Shardblade by Spiking the bladespren in the Cognitive realm

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6 hours ago, LabRat said:

This would also mean that you could steal a Shardblade by Spiking the bladespren in the Cognitive realm

I've long suspected that Hemalurgy on spren (and spren-like beings) would be easier or just only possible in the CR, since they're... Well for lack of a better phrase "more physical" there, less spirit-like and more people-like. The real question is "does Hemalurgy even work if you and the spike are in the CR?"

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18 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I've long suspected that Hemalurgy on spren (and spren-like beings) would be easier or just only possible in the CR, since they're... Well for lack of a better phrase "more physical" there, less spirit-like and more people-like. The real question is "does Hemalurgy even work if you and the spike are in the CR?"

Yes it work:

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Questioner

Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it.

Brandon Sanderson

That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him.

Questioner

So there is no way that he could use a Hemalurgic spike to take some power from the Spren that's crafting it.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's what you're saying. You want to grab something off the Spren? That's gonna be way harder than grabbing one that's not already made into something. So I don't see why he would want the Blade, just go grab it from them. Even then its going to be worse then, probably in most cases, a person. Maybe its possible that spiking yourself with a Spren would be valid, but you don't want to take it out of the Shardblade. That's gonna be harder, but you would probably have to go to the Cognitive either way to make it work, so yeah.

 

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On 04/02/2021 at 11:07 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I've long suspected that Hemalurgy on spren (and spren-like beings) would be easier or just only possible in the CR, since they're... Well for lack of a better phrase "more physical" there, less spirit-like and more people-like. The real question is "does Hemalurgy even work if you and the spike are in the CR?"

Or on spren that have surved... whatever Ishar is doing to them

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6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Briefly, for the minute or so they survive? :P

The fiveteen minutes Vespen survived would have been largely enough indeed. And it's likely it can be done in a way the spren would actually survive

Edited by mathiau
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