Shallan in Rhythm of War

[Maddie The Survivor]

I feel that Shallan was ruined in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War.

I was a little disappointed when she picked Adolin over Kaladin. I understand that two broken people can’t be together.

Starting at the end of Oathbringer, I started to see that she was starting to change. When I started reading The Way of Kings I really liked Shallan’s character. The more I read the more I learned that her character development was changing. After I finished Rhythm of War I started to dislike Shallan. 

Let me know your thoughts!

[Elerosse]

The only reason I don't like Shallan (Though that's changed a bit since RoW) is she's basically gone nuts. That being said, I think Adolin is a good match for her, but I'm rooting for him to become an Edgedancer, and Shallan is a good "training mechanism" for his oaths.

[jamesbondsmith]

I disliked Shallan before coming into ROW, and I'm not sure how much that changed.

In the first three books I thought she was a classist B who lies to anyone and everyone and never got any repercussions for it. I'm still seething over the fact that she victim-blames the bridgemen in Oathbringer, despite the fact that three of them are protecting her right then and Adolin (who is generally the 'supportive partner/friend who looks after the unfortunate') tells Kaladin to 'drop it' (i.e. don't confront her about her prejudice).

In ROW the classism is toned down, but it's worth noting that she has basically a single scene where she is with her 'social inferiors' (i.e. darkeyes, and uses a personality originally meant to mingle with darkeyes to do so) and the rest of the book she's with people of her own 'level' in the heirarchy (high level lighteyes or Radiants). Sure, she hangs out with darkeyed Radiants, but from what I could tell the Vorin class system wasn't torn down so much as Radiants just skipped the queue in the dahns/nahns.

Then the major revelation of her arc (spoilered for anyone who stumbles onto this without having read everything)

Spoiler

Yes, she was a kid who had no idea what she was doing when she killed Testament, but the honorspren were also so blinded by anger that they blamed modern humans for their ancestor's actions centuries prior, so a little detail like 'you were an impressionable child' wouldn't mean much to them. Shallan provides an exact example of what they were frothing mad about, and it doesn't even get called out. There had also better be an explanation for why the Cryptics were willing to be cannon fodder as her spren. Pattern is pretty certain she'll kill her second Cryptic too, and who knows how many more have joined the Charge of the Lightweaver Brigade.

In general, I don't like her but I can understand how her life has caused her to do the things that I don't like. She's clearly got issues with handling trauma, so it makes some sense that she would black it out.

She started out as a minor noble whose family is on the brink of financial ruin, so I can understand why she would hold onto her classist beliefs that would give her some level of power over others in a world where women and the poor aren't respected. Doesn't mean I have to forgive her for it, though.

Edited February 1, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[Maddie The Survivor]

I agree! I hope she does some sort of therapy, and isn’t Radiant still alive, but Veil is dead right?

[Eggdogg]

I think she has a ton of room for growth in a wide variety of directions so i find her exciting as a character.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

34 minutes ago, HaileyIsAWindrunner said:

I agree! I hope she does some sort of therapy, and isn’t Radiant still alive, but Veil is dead right?

Veil is as dead as Shallan. They integrated and are now one Identity again.

[TheOnlyEdgedancer]

So Shallan’s death is like figuratively?

[Maddie The Survivor]

Ok, thank you! That makes more sense! 

[Dracnor]

On 31/01/2021 at 0:37 AM, HaileyIsAWindrunner said:

I was a little disappointed when she picked Adolin over Kaladin. I understand that two broken people can’t be together.

Nah, it's just that she prefers to be with Adolin. She admired the intensity of Kaladin, was attracted to it, but never really loved him as she loves Adolin.

One of the theme of Stormlight Archive is to show broken/disfunctionnalIHateThoseWordsButCanTFindABetterOne neurodivergent (thx Aqua !) heroes, not the usual ideal impossible human with no mental health issue whatsoever. So I doubt that the author would say that "broken people" are people you have to take care of, that they need a "normal" human to rely on. They are adults, not childs. They take care of themselves - and as everyone, they can need or ask for help from their friends. That's all.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Dracnor

[AquaRegia]

2 hours ago, Dracnor said:

One of the theme of Stormlight Archive is to show broken/disfunctionnalIHateThoseWordsButCanTFindABetterOne heroes, not the usual ideal impossible human with no mental health issue whatsoever.

One word that can serve, perhaps, is "neurodivergent".  And I agree - Brandon has made it a point to show multiple neurodivergent characters.  While they are not DEFINED by what makes them different, it is an integral part of who they are... and just like a neurotypical character, they are capable of great and heroic things.

[Frustration]

So I had almost the exact opposite reaction as @HaileyIsAWindrunner I hated Shallan from book one, but RoW has actually gotten her to just about neutral, so I'd argue big improvement.

 

[Briar King]

I disliked Shallan in bk 1 and it’s only grown since. She is crazy and highly exhausting to read for thousands upon thousands of pages. I think my book binding broke by the sheer force of my mental thoughts of wanting to bash my own head in with it any time I saw her/s’s[ughhhhh] name pop up. I was so hoping bk 4 would put an end to that but no only Veil is gone. Exhausting and least favorite character in any book I’ve ever read. It becomes even worse to when mixed with depressed Kaladin for once again thousands upon thousands of pages.

Favorite part of bk 4 was 3 because she was completely absent! Woot!

[Frustration]

44 minutes ago, Briar King said:

Favorite part of bk 4 was 3 because she was completely absent! Woot!

*Whispers* that's part of why she's better this book.

[Andy92]

I think Shallan’s best book is definitely Words of Radiance. I do agree that her character experiences a change in tone during Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, and it’s mostly due to Radiant being added into the multi-personality thing. The first time I read Oathbringer I also had some feelings of “I don’t like reading about Shallan as much as I used to,” but when I re-read the book and started on Rhythm of War, her chapters started to click with me again. 

In my opinion, the thing that got me interested in her story in the last two books was to fully treat Veil and Radiant as separate characters. This wasn’t my thought the first time I read Oathbringer, and I spent most of the read at the time thinking “she’s completely crazy now” lol. But once I separated them out and tried to find the purpose in each one, it all kind of clicked and got better for me. 
 

Shallan coming to terms and learning from the Veil persona at the end of Rhythm of War was pretty bittersweet from my viewpoint. It was more like the death of a character you’ve grown to like. I’m not all that attached to Radiant, but Veil was becoming a pretty big character that had been around since Words of Radiance. 
 

Those are my general thoughts. There definitely is a shift that takes place in the recent two books. If you haven’t liked her character since the beginning, I doubt much changes. But if you liked her in the first two books and weren’t digging Oathbringer (and eventually Rhythm of War), I found the separation of the personalities as different characters helpful. 

[Maddie The Survivor]

 @Andy92 I completely agree! The first book was confusing, but I’m re-reading them. So hopefully I will notice things I didn’t  before!

[TheHidelSubldies]

On 31/01/2021 at 5:10 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

I'm still seething over the fact that she victim-blames the bridgemen in Oathbringer, despite the fact that three of them are protecting her right then and Adolin (who is generally the 'supportive partner/friend who looks after the unfortunate') tells Kaladin to 'drop it' (i.e. don't confront her about her prejudice)

I'm a bit confused by this one. I'm not disputing that this comment was very inconsiderate of her, particularly because at that point she was made aware of how horrible it was for the bridgemen (Kaladin told her all about it in the chasms I believe).Yet I also think it's important to note that it was made in response to Kaladin berating her and her choice of Lightweavers in training (Gaz mostly).
 

More Importantly however I interpreted Shallan's snapping at Kaladin a subconscious reaction to fining out the truth that it was Kaladin who killed her brother Heleran, This is a important detail I think a lot of people are willing to overlook and I don't understand why.

Edited February 2, 2021 by TheHidelSubldies

[+Q10fanatic]

17 hours ago, HaileyIsAWindrunner said:

 @Andy92 I completely agree! The first book was confusing, but I’m re-reading them. So hopefully I will notice things I didn’t  before!

I reread OB after the reveal of the separate personalities and the "Three" system. It shocked me how much better Shallan's chapters read knowing that she is developing/uncovering personalities. It completely changed how I considered her as a character and made her parts of OB much more enjoyable.

[jamesbondsmith]

On 2/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, TheHidelSubldies said:

I'm a bit confused by this one. I'm not disputing that this comment was very inconsiderate of her, particularly because at that point she was made aware of how horrible it was for the bridgemen (Kaladin told her all about it in the chasms I believe).Yet I also think it's important to note that it was made in response to Kaladin berating her and her choice of Lightweavers in training (Gaz mostly).
 

More Importantly however I interpreted Shallan's snapping at Kaladin a subconscious reaction to fining out the truth that it was Kaladin who killed her brother Heleran, This is a important detail I think a lot of people are willing to overlook and I don't understand why.

She can be angry with the man who killed her brother, but that doesn't mean she gets to denigrate the suffering of all the others who were stuck in that system. Not to mention that the suffering was partially facilitated by one of her trainee Lightweavers. Regret or not, that treatment isn't acceptable (especially considering the whole book's theme of taking responsibility for your actions, regardless of the circumstances that led you to them).

Skar and Drehy have done nothing to Shallan that deserves being accused of being too stupid to escape the suicide mission that they are forced into on pain of execution.

I suspect that the detail is overlooked because this action is part of a pattern where she considers herself above darkeyes, and can do things like force them to relinquish their boots on a continent of stone (which had sliced her own feet up and caused her to need boots in the first place), considers places to be 'proper' because 'at least they respect eye colour', and gallivant around pretending to be darkeyed while being shocked at someone pretending to be lighteyed. Her brother's death is traumatic, but he was also a full Shardbearer mowing down darkeyed soldiers by the dozen (another element of the privilege lighteyes enjoy). It's not as if Kaladin shanked him in his sleep.

Edited February 12, 2021 by jamesbondsmith

[TheHidelSubldies]

On 12/02/2021 at 11:30 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

She can be angry with the man who killed her brother, but that doesn't mean she gets to denigrate the suffering of all the others who were stuck in that system. Not to mention that the suffering was partially facilitated by one of her trainee Lightweavers. Regret or not, that treatment isn't acceptable (especially considering the whole book's theme of taking responsibility for your actions, regardless of the circumstances that led you to them).

To be clear I agree that it was just an awful comment for her to make. It baffles me that she would say such considering she's aware of what they have been through. Like I said, I interpreted it more as Shallan saying anything just to hurt Kaladin in that moment than her deep seated resentment of any and all darkeyes. I mean she has darkeyes in her service and I didn't notice them complaining that she treats them horribly or that she forbade them from leaving her service. At worst she fails to notice that she sometimes casually takes advantage of her position as a lighteyes, something she's made aware of by Kaladin in the chasams and it's something she expresses regret over.

 

On 12/02/2021 at 11:30 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

I suspect that the detail is overlooked because this action is part of a pattern where she considers herself above darkeyes, and can do things like force them to relinquish their boots on a continent of stone (which had sliced her own feet up and caused her to need boots in the first place), considers places to be 'proper' because 'at least they respect eye colour', and gallivant around pretending to be darkeyed while being shocked at someone pretending to be lighteyed.

These examples are pointing at a much larger problem with Vorin culture in general yes, though I will point out that other lighteyes are guilty of this as well to some extent (Adolin, Dalinar, Navani) and as I mentioned earlier, once Kaladin made her aware of this mistreatment Shallan agreed that it was wrong and apologised, though this is all together a much larger issue.

 

On 12/02/2021 at 11:30 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

Her brother's death is traumatic, but he was also a full Shardbearer mowing down darkeyed soldiers by the dozen (another element of the privilege lighteyes enjoy). It's not as if Kaladin shanked him in his sleep.

Oh I would never imply that Heleran was a hapless victim or anything similar. Kaladin had every right to defend himself/avenge the deaths of his men which he ultimately did but that doesn't change the fact that Heleran was still her brother and that his death casued her pain, pain on which I believe, she later acts upon even if subconsciously in her interactions with Kaladin. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's right for her to lash out like that but she does have a reason for doing so.

I digress though I seem to have taken this somewhat of track. Sorry for that. To be brief, I thought she continued to regress even further in RoW, which I found tiring to read. But I am somewhat hopeful for her future sine her arc ended on a optimistic note. I also hope we get to see more of her brothers instead of solely being leverage for the GB's to hold over Shallan.