Sanity on Roshar

[Eggdogg]

Something that has been on my mind since finishing RoW is the overall sanity of Roshar and its peeps. Who is not suffering from artificial delusions or sanity problems? I could list characters but you all know better than I about this stuff. I'm not referring to Kal's depression, Shallan's personal path or the like. I am talking the crazy spren at the trial, the heralds, old odium, some of the fused...characters acting irrational or acting upon a delusion. Adolin and Cultivation seem to be the only ones not suffering from the "Roshar Crazy." Is it just a lack of Honor? Am I imagining the Roshar Crazy? Is something or someone causing a collective sanity problem?

[AquaRegia]

The Fused and the Heralds definitely have a collective sanity problem.  In one case, it's being literally thousands of years old, unable to die and driven to unending war, and in the second, it's all of that PLUS some cumulative magical effect (WoBs on this, I'm pretty sure) that likely started around the time of the Recreance / the capture of Ba Ado Mishram.  So you are not wrong there.

Spren?  They sure are crazy; I hope we get more explanation why going forward, but for now it's a given that "they are just weird".

The general "Roshar Crazy", I think, can be at least partly explained by the influence of the Unmade.  Nergaoul has been infecting Alethkar and Jah Keved with The Thrill for generations.  Moelach and Ashertmarn have similarly been wandering around for centuries, causing region-wide insanities.  We've had strong hints that at least one has ensnared Shinovar, and there are several for whom we have no idea what they are currently up to, but I'm 100% sure it's NOT GOOD for sanity.

I'd add Navani to the "not-crazy" list, and Rysn, and Lift, and Gawx.  Maybe also Jasnah; weird? Yes.  But not "crazy".

 

[Eggdogg]

30 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

The Fused and the Heralds definitely have a collective sanity problem.  In one case, it's being literally thousands of years old, unable to die and driven to unending war, and in the second, it's all of that PLUS some cumulative magical effect (WoBs on this, I'm pretty sure) that likely started around the time of the Recreance / the capture of Ba Ado Mishram.  So you are not wrong there.

Spren?  They sure are crazy; I hope we get more explanation why going forward, but for now it's a given that "they are just weird".

The general "Roshar Crazy", I think, can be at least partly explained by the influence of the Unmade.  Nergaoul has been infecting Alethkar and Jah Keved with The Thrill for generations.  Moelach and Ashertmarn have similarly been wandering around for centuries, causing region-wide insanities.  We've had strong hints that at least one has ensnared Shinovar, and there are several for whom we have no idea what they are currently up to, but I'm 100% sure it's NOT GOOD for sanity.

I'd add Navani to the "not-crazy" list, and Rysn, and Lift, and Gawx.  Maybe also Jasnah; weird? Yes.  But not "crazy".

 

Ok, that's good. At least my mind isn't wandering into its own delusion. I was going to add Navani to the list as well, but like the stormfather I am unsure about her and the tower bonding. Navani does not seem to be Roshar Crazy though. Yeah, after reading RoW my mind keeps going back to BAM and the Recreance. 

[Honorless]

When in doubt, blame the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram

[Kyn]

3 hours ago, Eggdogg said:

Am I imagining the Roshar Crazy? Is something or someone causing a collective sanity problem?

I don’t think you’re imagining it, but I do think we have to be careful to note, as you do, that the Roshar Crazy is a real, external effect the world is inflicting on its residents rather than a problem with their states of mind. Crazy as they may seem, these characters are actually behaving astonishingly normally given their environments and natures.

It’s not a delusion for Szeth to hear the voices of those he’s slain if those voices are a real, magically-fueled phenomenon literally haunting him. It’s not a sanity problem to be inflexibly wedded to one particular idea of honor/freedom/learning/etc., and intolerant of other perspectives, if that idea is literally what you are composed of. It probably isn’t as severe of a sanity problem as it might be in our world for Szeth to so inflexibly hold to his ideas of Honor and Order that he becomes an assassin, considering that he resides in a world where it’s likely he had a literal mystical connection to something that either was or entrenched that kind of unwavering ideal in him. We would be more likely to consider him influenced, not insane, if electrical stimulation had been used to narrow his focus the way the Roshar Crazy effect did.

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

The general "Roshar Crazy", I think, can be at least partly explained by the influence of the Unmade.

That’s probably the most apt rationale for this. If my assumptions are wrong, and the Roshar Crazy effect is so new that Ba-Ado-Mishram’s imprisonment caused it, that should be pretty clear in the Heralds’ history when we get it. And will make that event even more momentous than it already looks. My guess for now, though, is that something about Roshar’s Investment causes the Unmade, and potentially other ideas to a lesser extent, to influence people like controlled substances or brain stimulation.

Spoiler

Like a drug, the effect of the Thrill was strongest in those newly exposed, driving them to self-defeating continuation of battle; but it had become something partially controllable, or at least something  they could redirect when it wasn’t at its most riled up, by Alethi like Dalinar who experienced it their whole lives. Not knowing the effects or locations of all of the Unmade makes it hard to pinpoint the level of their influence, but they undeniably have a strong one.

I’m assuming it’s all somehow due to the world’s free Investment.

Spoiler

 

Just like Endowment’s power tended to result in ways to gain abilities, Honor’s is driving connections and Cultivation’s is driving life to develop in ways that interact oddly with the Cognitive (and, to a lesser extent, the Spiritual) Realm. One of those oddities is the apparent ease of gaining of sentience/embodiment by ideas and impetuses like spren or the Unmade, of course. But if ideas/emotional drives are developing minds of their own while sentient minds are connected to them, still thinking and feeling these things even as these things evolve, there could be a feedback loop. The changing ideas skew the minds exposed to and forming them just as those minds originally created/fed those ideas and emotional drives. 

This would mean things like spren could be, and the Unmade definitely are, a big part of the problem, letting even warped aspects of these ideas take on a life of their own and (potentially, in the case of spren) contributing to the ideas obsessing those who tap into them.

 

But I also think it might be worthwhile to separate the Roshar Crazy from what we see of personified idea(l)s like spren. They could be more an embodiment of the effect, a part of its cause, rather than just victims of it like Humans and Singers. Which might make them more susceptible to the Roshar Crazy, or just so narrowly focused as the one thing they embody that they are extreme and seem unbalanced.

Aren’t the spren, at least as far as they believe, overwhelmingly representations of one single facet of “human” emotion/drives/concepts?

Spoiler

 

No matter how many flavors of “curiosity/honor/freedom/knowledge/etc. is the impetus for everything I am and do” there are, they’re all primarily some form of that single thing. That sort of single-mindedness may feel crazy to most people. Especially if you’re defining “crazy” as the opposite of moderate or stable or, like Kaladin muses to Syl, as a crowdsourced definition of anti-normal.

And if a spren’s identity is built on being that one thing, and that thing is not concrete, but constantly shifts or varies according to perspective or time and location, the instability is increased. Psychologically normal people, faced with contradictions to strongly-held beliefs, may tend to an extreme of digging in or wavering and doubting everything. Most people fall victim to ignoring reality and refusing to admit flaws in order to stave off cognitive dissonance, so a being who is literally a specific belief is necessarily going to react strongly when that belief is challenged or revised.

The sprens’ behavior is, unfortunately, utterly normal considering what they are. Zealotry is simply more likely in those who hold strong beliefs but don’t bend to evidence, meaning it’s probably even more likely in those who, essentially, are strong beliefs or embodied idea(l)s. And a person who is single-minded or possesses a trait that dominates others is less likely to seem well-rounded, even-keeled, or balanced.

 

In a world where people may literally Connect to specific interpretations of ideas that suit them or that they enact, it makes sense for that echo chamber effect to make those people more confined to, and extreme in, those interpretations. In a world where mystical forces are, effectively, constantly Rioting particular peoples’ emotions in regards to certain ideas, we can’t expect moderation on those ideas. And in a world where literal and figurative ghosts don’t let the past stay in the past, those with long or fraught histories are likely to be inflicted with instability by said ghosts.

So if there is a single, overarching source of the Roshar Crazy, I’d guess it’s the same thing that makes it likely ideas will manifest, spren will spontaneously come into being/attain sentience, and the (potentially cognitive shadows of the) dead will linger/communicate.

[Bejarden]

10 hours ago, Eggdogg said:

Adolin and Cultivation seem to be the only ones not suffering from the "Roshar Crazy." 

Adolin literally murders a highprince in cold blooded murder in an abandoned hallway and thinks he did nothing wrong because he didn't like him 

he might be slightly unhinged 

[Kyn]

34 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Adolin literally murders a highprince in cold blooded murder in an abandoned hallway and thinks he did nothing wrong because he didn't like him

To be fair, Adolin thinks he did what needed to be done because said highprince promised to ruin and betray his father again. Not regretting isn’t the same as thinking he did nothing wrong. He does consider it murder, after all.

And to be technical, that would not be cold-blooded murder, by any definition. It was done in a moment of emotion, and at a moment of perceived threat (no matter how disproportionate the response).

Frankly, Jasnah’s the only Kholin we’ve seen kill in cold blood, regularly using assassins and choosing to create situations where she had to kill. She would argue that Adolin’s action was quite sane, a reasonable response to an unreasonable threat, I suspect; although she certainly would have sent assassins to do the job rather than potentially drawing attention to her family like a hot-blooded killing could.

[Ramona Tehradin]

I would say Roshar is as crazy as 'Earth could be in magical terms'. 

Starting from Shards. Most of them have been around for 10,000 years and at one point have either been humans, shapeshifters or Yolenish natives. We know holding power of a Shard expands consciousness and in a manner excises our emotions to a confiscated trove, drawn out as detached as possible. Added, the Vessels are dominated by Intents of Shards which makes them as apathetic as rocks in terms of empathy-based execution and dispersing them as intent-based. For people, Shards would be called crazy. Odium is ever angry, Cultivation is a scheming reptile who cares both of actions and their consequences and Honor is heavily immersed in honor whist. We have seen same about other Shards as well and I wouldn't call them crazy actually. They are just beings present for a long time having pythonic amount of power and enormous plans to wend the universe in their way. 

Now Heralds. I have seen many fantasy books (especially YA) shoving down the fact that no matter how old a being is, its just perfect and human. I'm glad Brandon portrayed this as realistically as possible. Think about it. Heralds are crazy which is a cumulative effect of being around for nearly 8 millennia, breaking their oaths, having faced torture for thousands of years and then living for thousand more with those memories. Take example of us humans. Usually our memories: episodic and semantic are stored in the hippocampus, the neocortex and the amygdala. As the years pass, some of neurons 'excise' these memories in order to accumulate more but it varies from person. Your cranial capacity also has influence about your memories i.e, a greater cranial capacity is expected to store a greater influx of memories. In case of Heralds, their immortality has exceeded over their normal cranial capacity hence they have a super-overflow of memories along all the years. It'll be difficult for their 'neurons' to distinguish between episodic and semantic, or past or present. While their lunacy varies from each herald, their mental degradation is common. 

Spren are...well, they are fragments of creations who have desire to learn (greater spren). 

Rosharans as also influenced by Unmades as stated above but I'd also like to point out that reason for Alethi's warmongering behavior could possibly genetic predisposition of 'anger' inducing chemicals or neurotransmitters. I'm not stating this for specific characters but whole of Alethi in general. The genes are responsible for 'responses of your anger' which could be inherited as well. 

That was my comparison. 

[Eggdogg]

Yall are great. Its nice to have a place to talk cosmere. After a day and reading the replies it seems like a Roshar Crazy is paper thin. I still cant shake the feeling of another power working on roshar that we havent been shown yet. Also cant shake the feeling that Cultivation is behind the feeling. Its too many feelings and too much shaking. 

[Bejarden]

12 hours ago, Kyn said:

To be fair, Adolin thinks he did what needed to be done because said highprince promised to ruin and betray his father again. Not regretting isn’t the same as thinking he did nothing wrong. He does consider it murder, after all.

And to be technical, that would not be cold-blooded murder, by any definition. It was done in a moment of emotion, and at a moment of perceived threat (no matter how disproportionate the response).

Frankly, Jasnah’s the only Kholin we’ve seen kill in cold blood, regularly using assassins and choosing to create situations where she had to kill. She would argue that Adolin’s action was quite sane, a reasonable response to an unreasonable threat, I suspect; although she certainly would have sent assassins to do the job rather than potentially drawing attention to her family like a hot-blooded killing could.

He murdered a highprince the 2nd most coveted position in alethkar you can't do that without a trial 

What sadeas did was evil but not illigal he pulled back his troops and his bridges that's not a capitol offense

You can't just murder someone everyone knows that even dalinar and you are responsible if you do

[Eggdogg]

31 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He murdered a highprince the 2nd most coveted position in alethkar you can't do that without a trial 

What sadeas did was evil but not illigal he pulled back his troops and his bridges that's not a capitol offense

You can't just murder someone everyone knows that even dalinar and you are responsible if you do

Evil but not illegal is apt. And so is Adolin's action being rational and not delusional. 

[Kyn]

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What sadeas did was evil but not illigal he pulled back his troops and his bridges that's not a capitol offense

And what Adolin did being murder even by his own admission does not make it crazy. In no way does his being responsible for this crime negate that his choice to stop Sadeas was a rational response to somebody who intended to continue to ruin lives. Committing a crime to prevent harm that Adolin saw no other way of stopping might not be commendable, but it is wholly rational, and therefore not crazy.

In fact, your argument that Sadeas’ choice to knowingly and intentionally commit a war atrocity of mass murder by betraying 8000 allies to their deaths was not a capital (or even punishable) crime in Alethi society reveals exactly why Adolin’s decision was rational. The law and social mores would not prevent Sadeas from engaging in more harm, so Adolin did so.

On the other hand, Sadeas taunting one of his victims about how past actions that led to nearly 6000 deaths were only the beginning was not rational, because it instilled desperation. It was likely just a function of his cocky personality, but could have been a sign of the posited Roshar Crazy because of how extreme he had grown and how he antagonized someone who would have nothing to lose if Sadeas followed through on his threats.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 1/30/2021 at 8:30 AM, Eggdogg said:

Adolin and Cultivation seem to be the only ones not suffering from the "Roshar Crazy."

And for half of that equation, we haven't seen anything from Cultivation's POV yet...

[+Child of Hodor]

On 1/30/2021 at 10:03 AM, AquaRegia said:

The Fused and the Heralds definitely have a collective sanity problem.  In one case, it's being literally thousands of years old, unable to die and driven to unending war, and in the second, it's all of that PLUS some cumulative magical effect (WoBs on this, I'm pretty sure) that likely started around the time of the Recreance / the capture of Ba Ado Mishram.  So you are not wrong there.

Spren?  They sure are crazy; I hope we get more explanation why going forward, but for now it's a given that "they are just weird".

The general "Roshar Crazy", I think, can be at least partly explained by the influence of the Unmade.  Nergaoul has been infecting Alethkar and Jah Keved with The Thrill for generations.  Moelach and Ashertmarn have similarly been wandering around for centuries, causing region-wide insanities.  We've had strong hints that at least one has ensnared Shinovar, and there are several for whom we have no idea what they are currently up to, but I'm 100% sure it's NOT GOOD for sanity.

I'd add Navani to the "not-crazy" list, and Rysn, and Lift, and Gawx.  Maybe also Jasnah; weird? Yes.  But not "crazy".

 

Spren are odd. They aren't mentally ill. Although Brandon did say Syl's ADD-ish personality was inspired by one of his children who has it. It's more magical in nature though. They are pure investiture that developed a mind, beings from another realm of existence. Human psychology doesn't map on to them that well. 

I would agree with the OP that this series seems more packed with major characters with chronic, severe mental illness. Kaladin's arc so far is bookended by aborted suicide attempts. Shallan has DID, Renarin has a form of autism, Dalinar was a Thrill and wine addict, Szeth has ... issues. 

Out of universe Brandon has an interest in showing people who struggle with emotional and mental health. In universe I think it's because Knight's Radiants souls must be "broken" to allow for a Nahel bond.  

The Herald's madness is it's own post really. But thousands of years of alternating between constant war and torture broke them. Their original souls were suffused/replaced with Honor's investiture and they broke their big oath. They've lived way longer than anyone was meant to and they've lived with the guilt of abandoning Taln. 

Fused lived way longer than someone should and they have to bodysnatch instead of regenerating a new version of their original body like the Heralds do. That's probably harder on the soul.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 1/30/2021 at 9:03 AM, AquaRegia said:

I'd add Navani to the "not-crazy" list, and Rysn, and Lift, and Gawx.  Maybe also Jasnah; weird? Yes.  But not "crazy".

Jasnah is quite clearly a pro-social psychopath.  (Ie the charismatic type that in our world ends up running cults or Fortune 500 companies.  Apparently on Roshar they end up running kingdoms.)

[Mason Wheeler]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:55 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

He murdered a highprince the 2nd most coveted position in alethkar you can't do that without a trial 

What sadeas did was evil but not illigal he pulled back his troops and his bridges that's not a capitol offense

You can't just murder someone everyone knows that even dalinar and you are responsible if you do

There is a word for "giving aid to the enemy in time of war," which is precisely what Sadeas did by abandoning a winnable battle.  Interestingly enough, the same word also covers "attempted violent overthrow of a high government official."

What Sadeas did was treason.  And he was openly planning further treason and bragging about it to Adolin.  He was an unrepentant traitor and murderer who was insulated from formal consequences by his high position in society.  In such a situation, what Adolin did was not only right, but quite possibly the only morally correct option available to him.