Lady of Wishes

[PleatherDuster]

Was anyone else surprised by Raboniel's character arc? Like, wasn't she supposed to be....super evil-crazy? Leshwi and (I think) the Sibling were both horrified when they saw her, as if she was the single most evil Fused ever....but it seemed to be the complete opposite. She was surprisingly sane. Did I miss some description of the atrocities she carried out in past lives? Any idea why they reacted that way about her? 

And why is she called the Lady of Wishes? Is she the on making wishes or granting them? 

[yulyulk]

Raboniel manipulated/cajoled/etc Navani to create a permanent way to kill Fused and spren. That is a terrifying prospect for the assorted magical beings of Roshar. It's the fact that Raboniel is sane enough to pursue such goals that make her scary to people like Leshwi. (Does this make her evil? That is a separate matter.)

And good question about her title. We know it used to be the Lady of Pains but she wanted a less harsh title, and became the Lady of Wishes. So it might just be a meaningless euphemism. But it might also indicate that she represents the wishes of the singers and the Fused: to actually end the war for real and enjoy peace.

Edited January 29, 2021 by yulyulk

[Honorless]

Well, she did release a deadly disease that one time that decimated both human and Singer populations between Desolations.

She wanted to end the eternal war, and that's what she worked towards, always.

[Dracnor]

+1 to the two previous answers : manipulated Navani for creating an awfull weapon, and previously almost wiped out life with bioweapon. I'll had : on a far smaller scale, she let the Pursuer do as he wished in the tower, and same for Moash. (And was about to kill all of the sleeping radiants' spren). So definitly relativly sane but no positive character (and certainly not a hero, sorry navani).

[PleatherDuster]

On 1/29/2021 at 2:54 AM, Honorless said:

Well, she did release a deadly disease that one time that decimated both human and Singer populations between Desolations.

She wanted to end the eternal war, and that's what she worked towards, always.

I had forgotten that. Pretty evil plan for sure, but didn't it end up not killing many people? 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 8:26 PM, yulyulk said:

Raboniel manipulated/cajoled/etc Navani to create a permanent way to kill Fused and spren. That is a terrifying prospect for the assorted magical beings of Roshar. It's the fact that Raboniel is sane enough to pursue such goals that make her scary to people like Leshwi. (Does this make her evil? That is a separate matter.)

And good question about her title. We know it used to be the Lady of Pains but she wanted a less harsh title, and became the Lady of Wishes. So it might just be a meaningless euphemism. But it might also indicate that she represents the wishes of the singers and the Fused: to actually end the war for real and enjoy peace.

I had sort of wondered if that was it. Was she just so motivated (and capable) to end the war that others were afraid she'd succeed? But doesn't ring to me. Plus Leshwi seemed basically aligned with that (or at least amenable to it.). Based on her nickname I was sorta hoping she'd be like an evil Fused-genie  I guess no one is getting their wishes now. 

[LuckyJim]

2 hours ago, Dracnor said:

+1 to the two previous answers : manipulated Navani for creating an awfull weapon, and previously almost wiped out life with bioweapon. I'll had : on a far smaller scale, she let the Pursuer do as he wished in the tower, and same for Moash. (And was about to kill all of the sleeping radiants' spren). So definitly relativly sane but no positive character (and certainly not a hero, sorry navani).

Navani can be pretty forgiving of people who did terrible things, just look at who she married.

[Dracnor]

Just now, LuckyJim said:

Navani can be pretty forgiving of people who did terrible things, just look at who she married.

Eyup. And her life was saved by the last act of Raboniel, so that can explain things. But still, no hero x)

[Kyn]

6 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

I had forgotten that. Pretty evil plan for sure, but didn't it end up not killing many people? 

Generally, when someone tries to commit murder and fails, that makes them less effective, not less evil.

From RoW ch. 14

Quote

“During the last Return, she developed a disease intended to kill all humans on the planet. Near the end, it was discovered that the disease would likely kill many singers as well. She released it anyway … only to find, to all of our fortunes, that it did not work as expected. Fewer than one in ten humans were killed, and one in a hundred singers.”

So, an attempted complete genocidal vector that instead decimated the population isn’t a strike in her favor. It’s only made worse by her willingness to sacrifice her own kind as well…ends justifying the means taken to its most homicidal extreme.

[PleatherDuster]

26 minutes ago, Kyn said:

6 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

I had forgotten that. Pretty evil plan for sure, but didn't it end up not killing many people? 

Generally, when someone tries to commit murder and fails, that makes them less effective, not less evil

That was my point. She wasn't terribly effective. I don't get why Leshwi and others seemed so terrified of her in particular. I mean...Odium is their god, you expect evil. She was evil, Lezian was evil, Moash is evil, Dalinar is was evil. She seemed normal Fused/Stormlight evil. I guess I expected more evil-doing (and wish granting) from her? Less thoughtful scholarly discourse. 

[Kyn]

39 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

I guess I expected more evil-doing (and wish granting) from her? Less thoughtful scholarly discourse

She literally created – and implemented – a tool to kill immortal creatures just because she wanted to end a war in a final way. That’s what she was doing with her scholarly discourse. Her willingness to cross any line and sacrifice anything in order to advance her purposes is separated from morality, decency, or loyalty.

Her side is scared because she doesn’t care who her knowledge helps or harms, and she has (and continues seeking) a lot of dangerous knowledge. People are just tools that she could gladly do away with, but would prefer – and is equipped, through her voracious learning – to use in any manner that furthers her ends.

Her research is scarier than evil villain monologues, and her creation of weapons of mass destruction is more dangerous than a violent murder spree.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/30/2021 at 8:48 PM, PleatherDuster said:

That was my point. She wasn't terribly effective. I don't get why Leshwi and others seemed so terrified of her in particular. I mean...Odium is their god, you expect evil. She was evil, Lezian was evil, Moash is evil, Dalinar is was evil. She seemed normal Fused/Stormlight evil. I guess I expected more evil-doing (and wish granting) from her? Less thoughtful scholarly discourse. 

 Just because she hasn't won the war doesn't mean she's not effective or scary I mean  Look how afraid people are of the Corona virus that doesn't even kill one out of a 100 people imagine if I had the knowledge and capability  And willingness to create a virus That Killed 1 in 10 people.  And that's just one of her exploits,  There's a good chance that she might have been behind the making of the unmade. Hell by end of the book she's made a way to kill spren  That's pretty effective and terrifying to me.

Edited February 1, 2021 by bmcclure7

[PleatherDuster]

On 1/30/2021 at 8:08 PM, Kyn said:

She literally created – and implemented – a tool to kill immortal creatures just because she wanted to end a war in a final way. That’s what she was doing with her scholarly discourse. Her willingness to cross any line and sacrifice anything in order to advance her purposes is separated from morality, decency, or loyalty.

Her side is scared because she doesn’t care who her knowledge helps or harms, and she has (and continues seeking) a lot of dangerous knowledge. People are just tools that she could gladly do away with, but would prefer – and is equipped, through her voracious learning – to use in any manner that furthers her ends.

Her research is scarier than evil villain monologues, and her creation of weapons of mass destruction is more dangerous than a violent murder spree.

I completely agree with this sentiment. I think, for me anyway, her calm demeanor makes it easy to forget how ruthless she is. Which probably makes her even more dangerous. 

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Just because she hasn't won the war doesn't mean she's not effective or scary I mean  Look how afraid people are of the Corona virus that doesn't even kill one out of a 100 people imagine if I had the knowledge and capability  And willingness to create a virus That Killed 1 in 10 people.

As much as I turn to these books to avoid real life, I think this is apt analogy. 

Maybe someone has already made this comparison, but her willingness to sacrifice thousands (even her own people) to achieve the "greater good" (in her mind) of ending the war, (i.e, an ends-justifies-the-means mentality) really reminds me of Taravangian. 

[AquaRegia]

I was both surprised and very pleased by Raboniel's character arc.  I was expecting someone like Darth Vader or Cruella DeVil, but what we got instead was a very thoughtful, nuanced, realistic-feeling antagonist.  I hesitate to use the words "evil" or "villain"to describe her, even though I completely agree with @Kyn's assessment of why she's terrifying.

I loved how she was so clearly NOT driven by anger or hatred.  She treated Navani (and all the humans) as people, not objects.  People she had no qualms about killing, sure, but still people, some of whom were worthy of respect.  Her sole motivation was to end the cycle of Desolations and free sentient beings (whichever ones happened to survive) from the despair of neverending conflict.  I find her goals and her cleverness admirable, if not so much her methods.  I'm sad we won't be seeing her anymore.

[+Harrycrapper]

I think one thing that is being overlooked in this thread is her efforts to corrupt The Sibling. Aside from the fact that The Sibling very much did not want to be corrupted and the process seemed painful, the imprisonment of Bah-Ado-Mishram should be a cautionary tale of why not to mess with the powerful spren of Roshar. There could have been serious consequences to changing The Sibling on par with what happened to make the Parshmen. Considering that things on Roshar are already on the knifes edge because of what happened to BAM, it could have been even worse. Also, she only helped Navani against Moash once it was certain she would not be able to finish her work on The Sibling.