Why roshar should attack Scadrial soon and therefore they probably will

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I assume he's still limited by how much he can hold before it just falls over, even if he's theoretically got the strength.

I'd assume he would compensate with Allomantic Iron and Steel. Wax with the Bands was able to toss boulders from their trace metals and was able to safely Ironpull a whole airship without wrecking it

Quote

Also, Feruchemical pewter grows your muscles physically, right? I could see it causing problems if you tap past a certain point.

If his Allomantic Pewter scales anywhere near the Allomantic Steel Wax displayed I don't think he would need to tap too much Feruchemical Pewter. Sazed was able to tap enough Strength (albeit in conjuncture with Weight) to hold closed the gate from a veritable horde of Koloss who themselves have superhuman levels of strength without bulking so much he had problems

Edited January 28, 2021 by StanLemon

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'd assume he would compensate with Allomantic Iron and Steel. Wax with the Bands was able to toss boulders from their trace metals and was able to safely Ironpull a whole airship without wrecking it

Fair point

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

@StanLemon Ten Essences, so like metal, or iron, or anti-iron.

Seems pretty stright forward.

We have no reason to believe that antimatter falls under the Ten Essences umbrella. WoK epigraph points out that it requires practice for Soulcasters to make steel. Pretty sure making a substance they have no experience with won't be easy

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

We have no reason to believe that antimatter falls under the Ten Essences umbrella. WoK epigraph points out that it requires practice for Soulcasters to make steel. Pretty sure making a substance they have no experience with won't be easy

steel isn't pure metal though, and while it's been a while if I recall correctly, nuclearly and chemically antimatter and matter are identicle correct?

well, weak nuclear force yes, but for the most part.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

steel isn't pure metal though, and while it's been a while if I recall correctly, nuclearly and chemically antimatter and matter are identicle correct?

well, weak nuclear force yes, but for the most part.

They have completely opposite charges, when interacting with other antimatter they will react identically to how the matter version will interact with matter. But things get weird once antimatter and matter interact. Even not counting the potential for explosion.

Now that I'm mentioning that, I think their knowledge on Anti-Investiture might even impair their potential for understanding antimatter along with other potential problems. Different charges are a very different thing than having opposite waves and if they go into trying to make antimatter with the mindset of how Anti-Investiture works they will probably hit wall.

Also, in testing out Soulcasting antimatter there is a good chance there attempts will blow themselves up by Soulcasting something too large into antimatter as single gram could potentially cause an explosion comparable to Hiroshima. A reason it's good to have a good understanding of physics before they go making potentially explosive materials.

I've also just realized something, Silverlight almost certainly has an understanding of antimatter. They know about Microkinesis which is a magic able to see atoms, and in Ars Arcanum Khriss makes mention that they are more technologically developed than Scadrial. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

With all the talk of Kelsier: He can effectively create other Fullborn by making more Bands of Mourning. He’s done it once that we know of. He can stick himself in a time bubble, make a bunch of Bands, and leave with only ten minutes having passed.

Fullborn are ridiculous. Even full Radiants can’t just create more Radiants with all their powers.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

With all the talk of Kelsier: He can effectively create other Fullborn by making more Bands of Mourning. He’s done it once that we know of. He can stick himself in a time bubble, make a bunch of Bands, and leave with only ten minutes having passed.

Fullborn are ridiculous. Even full Radiants can’t just create more Radiants with all their powers.

This actually begs the question, how long it would actually take to Compound enough stores for a Fullborn to be broken? I doubt a newly minted Fullborn would be overly powerful so it would be dependent on how long it takes them to get the snowball rolling

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This actually begs the question, how long it would actually take to Compound enough stores for a Fullborn to be broken? I doubt a newly minted Fullborn would be overly powerful so it would be dependent on how long it takes them to get the snowball rolling

Considering the levels of Allomancy the Bands gave... and there’s really nothing stopping from Kell from creating as many as he wants.

Fullborn are so beyond broken. Also, this is terrifying. I don’t think it hit me until now that you can use 1 Fullborn to make more Fullborn who can them make more Fullborn...

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Considering the levels of Allomancy the Bands gave... and there’s really nothing stopping from Kell from creating as many as he wants.

Fullborn are so beyond broken. Also, this is terrifying. I don’t think it hit me until now that you can use 1 Fullborn to make more Fullborn who can them make more Fullborn...

While in the realm of possibility, I think it's unlikely in the way that I think it's unlikely but technically possible for Roshar to make antimatter weaponry. I'm certain there is some limit we don't know about yet. Brandon likes his limits on things too much I think. This is one reason I desperately hope Lost Metal goes into detail on how Unsealed Metalminds work. Only one more year...

[Kingsdaughter613]

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

While in the realm of possibility, I think it's unlikely in the way that I think it's unlikely but technically possible for Roshar to make antimatter weaponry. I'm certain there is some limit we don't know about yet. Brandon likes his limits on things too much I think. This is one reason I desperately hope Lost Metal goes into detail on how Unsealed Metalminds work. Only one more year...

We really do need to know. Because right now it’s WAY too much power.

[Honorless]

Roshar also looks like it'll get clean energy, via Investiture no less, pretty soon. Look at fabrial discoveries in RoW and Dawnshard! Look at that Highstorm and imagine how much energy it produces, how much Investiture, it's free power! Scadrial does not have that advantage, Feruchemy is not suited towards that, but maybe Allomancy is. Maybe they could also harness energy from the Mists. Their planet is near-empty, they'll have an easier time with fossil fuels (which Preservation artificially put there?) for longer, so they might not feel the need for looking into clean energy, maybe places like New Seran could promote green energy. But Investiture energy conversion is the way to go and the future of the Cosmere, imo.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Honorless

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Roshar also looks like it'll get clean energy, via Investiture no less, pretty soon. Look at fabrial discoveries in RoW and Dawnshard! Look at that Highstorm and imagine how much energy it produces, how much Investiture, it's free power! Scadrial does not have that advantage, Feruchemy is not suited towards that, but maybe Allomancy is. Maybe they could also harness energy from the Mists. Their planet is near-empty, they'll have an easier time with fossil fuels (which Preservation artificially put there?) for longer, so they might not feel the need for looking into clean energy, maybe places like New Seran could promote green energy. But Investiture energy conversion is the way to go and the future of the Cosmere, imo.

Actually Allomancy and Feruchemy in concert would be fantastic for clean energy. Particularly the combination of Feruchemical Iron and Allomantic Iron/Steel for turbines. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Who knows what other fascinating combinations are available. 

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Actually Allomancy and Feruchemy in concert would be fantastic for clean energy. Particularly the combination of Feruchemical Iron and Allomantic Iron/Steel for turbines. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Who knows what other fascinating combinations are available. 

Yeah but doesn't Feruchemy need a human component, someone to store their attributes? This could get costly or become a Human Rights violation against the Terris

[StanLemon]

51 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Yeah but doesn't Feruchemy need a human component, someone to store their attributes? This could get costly or become a Human Rights violation against the Terris

While not confirmed, there are implications that Feruchemy can be mechanically done similar to Allomancy. If that's the case, make the turbines super light and Pushes/Pulls can get them spinning very quickly. Even if that isn't the case, it's not particularly hard to think of ways to get clean energy without it being horribly expensive or human rights violations.

Quote

Chris King

Does mechanical Feruchemy draw from the user or the machine?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see if I can phrase this correctly. Feruchemy-- I don't want you to guess everything I'm going to do, then the books won't be interesting for you in the future. When I'm approaching using them mechanically I'm trying to keep to the core principles of the magic as much as possible.

 

Quote

Leinton (paraphrased)

Can you use Hemalurgy to power machinery?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He was initially confused as to what I meant, so I said I got the idea from thinking about FTL travel, and he said that it was a RAFO, but that I was thinking along the right lines, there needs to be a merger between magic and technology.

Edited January 28, 2021 by StanLemon

[+Bzhydack]

9 hours ago, Valigus said:

Aluminum- we know that soulcasters can create aluminum which means that they have the easiest acess to aluminum out of any world we have seen.

Another important thing that provides another very good reason to attack Scadrial before anywhere else

2. guns: while many people will argue that guns are a reason Scadrial is dangerous and a tougher target then I may be making it out to be, you are only kinda right, because here’s the thing guns are exactly why roshar should attack Scadrial. 

guns are essentially the only advantage Scadrial has in terms of the military against other cosmere worlds especially roshar. 
metalborn are simply not numerous or dangerous enough to be a reliable source of military might rn and on top of that largely their powers are fairly useless unless deployed on a truly massive scale are nowhere near as helpful as the powers of radiants on the battlefield.

 

Aluminum on Roshar is still very, very Rare, even with Soulcasters - this mean is probably dificoult to make. And on Scadrial weve seen literaly whole rail wagon full of aluminum. Its dozens of tons. Scadrial now can make aluminum faster and chaper than Roshar. And all they need to kill Radiant (of any order) is heavy machinegun with Aluminum ammo. They allready have those (ok, they have Gatlings, but in our world Maxim made his  machinegun just 20 years later).

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Yeah but doesn't Feruchemy need a human component, someone to store their attributes? This could get costly or become a Human Rights violation against the Terris

Weve seen feruchemical ability (f-iron) charged into Ettmetal, so machine can operate it.

 

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Considering the levels of Allomancy the Bands gave... and there’s really nothing stopping from Kell from creating as many as he wants.

Fullborn are so beyond broken. Also, this is terrifying. I don’t think it hit me until now that you can use 1 Fullborn to make more Fullborn who can them make more Fullborn...

Yyyyy...

[Valigus]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Aluminum on Roshar is still very, very Rare, even with Soulcasters - this mean is probably dificoult to make. And on Scadrial weve seen literaly whole rail wagon full of aluminum. Its dozens of tons. Scadrial now can make aluminum faster and chaper than Roshar. And all they need to kill Radiant (of any order) is heavy machinegun with Aluminum ammo. They allready have those (ok, they have Gatlings, but in our world Maxim made his  machinegun just 20 years later).

Weve seen feruchemical ability (f-iron) charged into Ettmetal, so machine can operate it.

 

Yyyyy...

Aluminum is very very rare on roshar now, because only some soulcast era can make it. We now know that there are at least like 15 soul casting radiants and based on what we have seen jasnah do she could probably soulcast immense amounts of aluminum, and she is definitely good enough to manage it. In fact I bet that jasnah in a solid week of working with dalinar a help could soulcast enough aluminum to have more then Scadrial makes in a decade, since stormlight reduces the need to sleep and dalinar can keep recharging her.

 

i also think you’re over estimating many of Scadrial fighters, the be fighters on roshar namely kaladin and szeth are capable of outclassing beings who have been fighting for millennia with far more experience then kelsier and far more mastery over their powers. Kelsier showing up is like Tuesday to most radiants and even if he is a full born I think kaladin or szeth at 5th ideal would be something he would very much struggle to take in. Especially considering the weird unknown perks kaladin has (which I think are tied to his child of tanavast status)

(also odium has some connection to him so may be able to mess with him)

Edited January 28, 2021 by Valigus

[+Oltux72]

The logistics of interplanetary warfare are terrible. You'd have to essentially walk the whole distance from perpendicularity to perpendicularity. We are talking about thousands of kilometers. Then you'd need craft which can operate in the Expanse of Mists. During the whole trip there will be no native supply of food and water. And then you'd have to strike at place your enemy knows you need to get to and has had decades, maybe centuries to fortify.

Strategically speaking the idea to strike better now than later is likely sound, but the logistical advantage to the defense is simply overwhelming.

[StanLemon]

@ValigusThe fact that you think two Radiants, even Szeth and Kaladin, at 5th Ideal could compare in any way to a Fullborn either means that you greatly underestimate Fullborn or overestimate Radiants. Ishar who I'm sure we haven't seen his full capabilities showed in a couple of paragraphs that he could cream those two and even that wasn't nearly enough to compete with what we've seen the Bands could provide.

Edited January 28, 2021 by StanLemon

[Valigus]

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@ValigusThe fact that you think two Radiants, even Szeth and Kaladin, at 5th Ideal could compare in any way to a Fullborn either means that you greatly underestimate Fullborn or overestimate Radiants. Ishar who I'm sure we haven't seen his full capabilities showed in a couple of paragraphs that he could cream those two and even that wasn't nearly enough to compete with what we've seen the Bands could provide.

1. Ishar likely could simply take a fullborns powers away, we can argue about other radiants but bond smiths are far more powerful then full born, in anything except and potentially even including a straight brawl especially now that they are unchained and have no limits.

I disagree I think a 5th ideal radiant could potentially 

also since we haven’t seen kaladin or szeth fight any heralds except nale who I feel like was probably one of the more deadly fighters among them considering szeth managed to connect with ishars blade and nale just curbstomped him I think kaladin or szeth could beat ishar. 
with nightblood a 5th ideal szeth could go against any fullborn and I would bet on szeth almost every time if he knew what he was against.

and while kaladin rn probably couldn’t taking into account his vague other powers he seems to possess like super speed Shown in row or his weird pseudo atium in wor  potentially could if these come into play.

They could also create a fabriel to interfere with a full Ron’s investiture which would basically let the radiant curbstomp them and the fullborn probably would have almsot no counter.

I also think that the difference in investiture levels on the two planes could play a greater role then people realize and that radiant shardplate for example would be almost impossible to push on because of the difference.

but seriously bondsmith are insane from what I can tell based on what ishar did they can basically use hemalurgy on everything with 0 consequence to themselves, they literally have the powers of the threads from the book of the ancestor, plus being a splinter basically, plus being able to refill investiture. Bondsmiths are the most overpowered magic users we have seen in the cosmere by a long shot. A fullborn may outclass an unprepared one in a fight but a bondsmith like ishar who understands what he is capable of is insanely scary.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Valigus

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Valigus said:

4. shardbearers- the greatest warrior in scadriels known history has the feats equivalent of a skilled shardbearer 

This deserves an answer in detail:
Unless the Scadrians are idiots, they'll meet their enemies in the CR. No Shardbearers on the Rosharan side.

13 hours ago, Valigus said:

5. generals- Scadrial has no generals in fact I’d doubt it even has proper tactics detailed anywhere at least in the areas we know well because there hasn’t been a war in 300 years and nobody knows how to fight one. 

They do have house troops, but yes, that is their weakness. However, the Ghostbloods are aware of that. Hence you'd better say that we are talking about native generals.

 

[Valigus]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

This deserves an answer in detail:
Unless the Scadrians are idiots, they'll meet their enemies in the CR. No Shardbearers on the Rosharan side.

They do have house troops, but yes, that is their weakness. However, the Ghostbloods are aware of that. Hence you'd better say that we are talking about native generals.

 

That is true that they will at all points attempt to limit enemy shardbearers but 1 shardbearer or 1 radiant could rip through Scadrial troops where as a single metalborn especially if rosharan manage to get guns will be much harder. The fact that vin wether or not she could take on a shardbearer or not has equivalent feats shows just how insane plate really is. (Interestingly though thinking about it I’d bet vin would have a much higher chance vs a 3rd ideal or lower radiant then a full shardbearer because shardplate is so op)

Also saying that helps prove my point in that rn at this time for them to win they must have an advantage, they must catch the rosharans with a large force, the rosharan not having gotten any guns after arriving on their planet which is unlikely, they must catch the rosharans without shardbearers or radiants, all of these things without possessing a single general or military mind capable of matching most rosharan middle rank officers. 
 

And as far as scadrians being idiots when it comes to military tactics especially compared to rosharans they really are idiots. They have had one war in potentially as long as 1300 years that war lasted a few years and most of the veterans didn’t survive and most of the battles consisted of using koloss, vin murdering everyone or long sieges. It is because fo this very very unlikely that the scadirans would be able to have an advantage in any battle when it comes to tactics or strategy unless the ghost bloods bring in some good general from elsewhere.

(also keep in mind Scadrial is at best like slightly after the civil war in terms of technology a point where tactics still resembled where the rosharans are at, in fact I would

argue it resembles it a lot more after the impact of irregulars like fused and radiants on tactics.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Valigus

[StanLemon]

@valgerth there is a big difference between stealing Bonds and stealing powers that are hard-coded into sDNA. Hemalurgy requires litterally ripping off the Spiritweb to take powers. But for the sake of argument let's say it's possible. From what we saw of Ishar he still had to get in close which would be suicide. The Fullborn can move faster than the Bondsmith could even think and kill them, use Chromium to drain what Stormlight is left, and the fight is over

[Valigus]

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@valgerth there is a big difference between stealing Bonds and stealing powers that are hard-coded into sDNA. Hemalurgy requires litterally ripping off the Spiritweb to take powers. But for the sake of argument let's say it's possible. From what we saw of Ishar he still had to get in close which would be suicide. The Fullborn can move faster than the Bondsmith could even think and kill them, use Chromium to drain what Stormlight is left, and the fight is over

I think if he can steal a bond that is hard coded into your soul he can steal one coded into your dna, in fact I bet a bond in your dnd would be far easier to manipulate. A fullborn coudl beat a bondsmith in a fight yea but that doesn’t make them stronger a fullborn alone is an unstoppable fighter but they can’t do much else a bondsmith can bond gods essentially create entire magic systems. They are the single most overpowered thing in the cosmere that isn’t a shard. It’s also been repeatedly hinted at that we know nothing about what bondsmith are capable of.

(plus bondsmiths have shardplate which should enable them to survive at least one blow from a fullborn which puts the fullborn close enough to steal his bonds (if there even is a range limit there very well may not be in certain situations(for example ishar had no bonds with dalinar but if dalinar say wanted to manipulate kaladin or adolin or navani he could probably do it from almsot anywhere on account of their connection( this also means that if say they captured Wayne they could possibly manipulate wax through him or if the captured kelsier they could manipulate the bands)))

(this also means it could be possible to make oneself immune to bondsmith powers by storing identity and connection) (but that would make for example the bands extra susceptible)(but they would have to figure this out as well which doesn’t seem likely though if a conflict occurred it likely would happen because plot and bondsmiths are too op)

(I also assume the powers of the bondsmith to manipulate connection operate almsot exactly the same as a quantal thread worker from the book of the ancestor trilogy because from every way it has been described it appears to be a much faster, simpler and more overpowered version of it, but even if it is only as strong as that ability that still would allow it to do many of these things)

Edited January 28, 2021 by Valigus

[+Oltux72]

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

That is true that they will at all points attempt to limit enemy shardbearers but 1 shardbearer or 1 radiant could rip through Scadrial troops where as a single metalborn especially if rosharan manage to get guns will be much harder.

Good luck keeping a mechanized army supplied with a Rosharan industrial base on an interplanetary scale. The Rosharans know their own weakness: Shardbearers cannot hold territory.

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

The fact that vin wether or not she could take on a shardbearer or not has equivalent feats shows just how insane plate really is. (Interestingly though thinking about it I’d bet vin would have a much higher chance vs a 3rd ideal or lower radiant then a full shardbearer because shardplate is so op)

Again, no Plate in the CR.

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Also saying that helps prove my point in that rn at this time for them to win they must have an advantage, they must catch the rosharans with a large force, the rosharan not having gotten any guns after arriving on their planet which is unlikely, they must catch the rosharans without shardbearers or radiants, all of these things without possessing a single general or military mind capable of matching most rosharan middle rank officers.

The issue of logistics is more or less universal. No one of the "Big Four" has a chance of mounting an invasion of another home world. The logistical advantages of the defender are just too large. In such a conflict, you'd attack trade and colony worlds. It would be a war of attrition. If Roshar wants to hurt the rest of the Cosmere, they have one overwhelming strategic option: set Odium free

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

And as far as scadrians being idiots when it comes to military tactics especially compared to rosharans they really are idiots. They have had one war in potentially as long as 1300 years that war lasted a few years and most of the veterans didn’t survive and most of the battles consisted of using koloss, vin murdering everyone or long sieges.

In the North.

16 minutes ago, Valigus said:

It is because fo this very very unlikely that the scadirans would be able to have an advantage in any battle when it comes to tactics or strategy unless the ghost bloods bring in some good general from elsewhere.

That is exactly what they would do.

 

[Valigus]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Good luck keeping a mechanized army supplied with a Rosharan industrial base on an interplanetary scale. The Rosharans know their own weakness: Shardbearers cannot hold territory.

Again, no Plate in the CR.

The issue of logistics is more or less universal. No one of the "Big Four" has a chance of mounting an invasion of another home world. The logistical advantages of the defender are just too large. In such a conflict, you'd attack trade and colony worlds. It would be a war of attrition. If Roshar wants to hurt the rest of the Cosmere, they have one overwhelming strategic option: set Odium free

In the North.

That is exactly what they would do.

 

Soul casters are basically the single most overpowered rosharan advantage and if they can get radiants offworld they can get plate and blade off world too.

roshar actually more then any other world can invade because of soulcatsrs they have an easy constant supply of food and resources and need to supply lines. 

Yes in the north but in the south they almsot certainly still cannot match rosharan caliber generals or troops especially considering they have zero cold resistance for some reason.

Even if the ghost blood bloods bring generals it is very unlikely they would be of the same caliber as rosharans who have been fighting war for 700 years and have advanced military tactics, the Alethi especially are the most militarily advanced country we have seen in the cosmere and I doubt anyone would be able to match their generals.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Valigus