mathiau Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 13 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: It a push and a pull you make.a powerful dawnshard and ballance it out with its opposites ( it's not groupings it's checks and balances) Why? A Dawnshard is god ordering the word to do something, what do checks and balances have to do with any of that? 13 hours ago, Bzhydack said: @mathiau Youve got some very valuable points here. Thanks Quote So, what suits Autonomy better? Change-Destroy? Or Change-Unite? But Change-Unite more suits Ambition... Hey, I'm not the one trying to sell Destroy and Create as Dawnshard, you are:) Quote It seems like Unite-Destroy indeed suits Devotion better. Wait, why? Quote I disagree, Valor is very much about Unity, and, more important, constancy. Maybe even "Constancy" would suits this one characteristic better? I see this not just making things whole, but also keeping them that way. And Valor is very much being constant in behaviour. OK but I don't see anything in the word Constancy that have anything to do with Unity 12 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said: Has anyone considered one of the Dawnshards could be Connect? Connection plays such a huge role in the Cosmere, and I personally think there is one Dawnshard that applies to each realm, with one of them being "different from the others". Connect could be the Dawnshard specific to the creation of the Spiritual Realm or something like that... I think we've all being assuming the Dawnshard manipulating Connection was Unity. 18 hours ago, 11thHerald said: Devotion: Command Valor: Bind Wouldn't these too be better switched? 18 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said: I dunno if Dalinar really has the Unite Dawnshard. There's definitely too much strangeness going on to just declare that as fact until we get more information. Maybe Honor hid Unite inside one of his own Splinters... Maybe the Stormfather? but in a way that makes it mostly inert. Melishi held the Unite Dawnshard very soon before Honour's death (the Dawnshard that can bind God, men and singers alike to be exact) so it's unlikely the Stormfather have it since he was still mindless. Maybe Melishi gave Unite back to Honour, it was destroyed when he was splintered and Dalinar reforged it in Oathbringer? Some of us had interpreted that moment as him temporarily using all of Honour, like Rashek at the well, and I guess if it's what happened and there was pieces of Unite in it they would stick with him. 18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: The thing with it is, if Tanavast had a Dawnshard, why did he say they didn't have them? It could have meant that they were inaccessible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, mathiau said: Quote It seems like Unite-Destroy indeed suits Devotion better. Wait, why? Of course Dominion, simple mistake 10 minutes ago, mathiau said: Hey, I'm not the one trying to sell Destroy and Create as Dawnshard, you are:) Not me, @Halyo_Alex I just find this idea fitting Quote OK but I don't see anything in the word Constancy that have anything to do with Unity When you unite things, you need to keep them that way, otherwise all work is wasted. Edited February 4, 2021 by Bzhydack 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: Of course Dominion, simple mistake Not me, @Halyo_Alex I just find this idea fitting I suppose an alternative would be Survive and something else, but that opens up a whole other can of worms... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thHerald Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 13 minutes ago, mathiau said: Wouldn't these too be better switched? The way I've always interpreted Devotion as a Shard is in a worship-like sense, which, in the way I configured the Dawnshards would land under the authority quadrant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: Of course Dominion, simple mistake Yeah that makes more sense^^ Quote Not me, @Halyo_Alex I just find this idea fitting Oops, sorry Quote When you unite things, you need to keep them that way, otherwise all work is wasted. That seems like a very tenuous link to me. 12 minutes ago, 11thHerald said: The way I've always interpreted Devotion as a Shard is in a worship-like sense, which, in the way I configured the Dawnshards would land under the authority quadrant. She probably is, but since she's in a yin-yang realtionship with Dominion she has to be the about one worshipping, not the one worshipped. Edited February 4, 2021 by mathiau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thHerald Posted February 4, 2021 Report Share Posted February 4, 2021 32 minutes ago, mathiau said: She probably is, but since she's in a yin-yang realtionship with Dominion she has to be the about one worshipping, not the one worshipped. Yeah, Devotion like giving someone else power over you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 3 hours ago, mathiau said: Melishi held the Unite Dawnshard very soon before Honour's death (the Dawnshard that can bind God, men and singers alike to be exact) Do we have evidence for this claim? 3 hours ago, mathiau said: It could have meant that they were inaccessible. It wouldn't seem to be very inaccessible if Gavilar, Dalinar, and as you claim Melishi all had it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Do we have evidence for this claim? It wouldn't seem to be very inaccessible if Gavilar, Dalinar, and as you claim Melishi all had it. I actually mixed up that epigraph from tWoK Quote “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” —From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies. With that one from Ob Quote "Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." Why would Galivar ever had Unite? My hypothesis was it was broken between the moment Honour died and Dalinar swore the third oath 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 48 minutes ago, mathiau said: Why would Galivar ever had Unite? My hypothesis was it was broken between the moment Honour died and Dalinar swore the third oath The general theory about Unite tends to involve Dalinar's UNITE THEM, which Gavilar heard too. (May not apply to your specific theory after all, my bad.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 50 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: The general theory about Unite tends to involve Dalinar's UNITE THEM, which Gavilar heard too. (May not apply to your specific theory after all, my bad.) I just always assumed that was cultivation meddling 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: I just always assumed that was cultivation meddling I mean, I've always just been of the opinion that it's exactly what it seems on the surface, it's Honor/Dalinar being obsessed to the point he's hearing it when it's not directly being said/weird Spiritual Connection mumbo jumbo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ba-Ado-Fisherman Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 19 hours ago, mathiau said: Why? A Dawnshard is god ordering the word to do something, what do checks and balances have to do with any of that? Thanks Hey, I'm not the one trying to sell Destroy and Create as Dawnshard, you are:) Wait, why? OK but I don't see anything in the word Constancy that have anything to do with Unity I think we've all being assuming the Dawnshard manipulating Connection was Unity. Wouldn't these too be better switched? Melishi held the Unite Dawnshard very soon before Honour's death (the Dawnshard that can bind God, men and singers alike to be exact) so it's unlikely the Stormfather have it since he was still mindless. Maybe Melishi gave Unite back to Honour, it was destroyed when he was splintered and Dalinar reforged it in Oathbringer? Some of us had interpreted that moment as him temporarily using all of Honour, like Rashek at the well, and I guess if it's what happened and there was pieces of Unite in it they would stick with him. It could have meant that they were inaccessible. I have not been assuming Unity is a Dawnshard... I'd bet a lot of money that it isn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 20 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said: I suppose an alternative would be Survive and something else, but that opens up a whole other can of worms... I think the best would be "Persist", as includes Unite and Survive, and is in oposition to Change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: The general theory about Unite tends to involve Dalinar's UNITE THEM, which Gavilar heard too. (May not apply to your specific theory after all, my bad.) Indeed it doesn't, only the "Unite them" that the Stormfather don't hear would be from the Dawnshard and we don't know if Galivar ever heard them, and even if he did we know you can feel the call of a Dawnshard before obtaining it and it's likely someone invested will hear it more distinctly, probably up to actually hearing it's name. 1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said: I have not been assuming Unity is a Dawnshard... I'd bet a lot of money that it isn't. It's possible but the "I'm Unity" feels insanely similar to the sleepless tell Rysn that she's change. 49 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: I think the best would be "Persist", as includes Unite and Survive, and is in oposition to Change. Persist doesn't realy work as a "Dawnshard known to bind any creature voidish or mortal". And why would it include Unite? I don't think the Dawnshard are in opposite to each other any more than the Shards are, more in complementarity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hufdud Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Crazy idea I don't know if I've seen posted anywhere yet but what if one of the dawnshards is PROTECT. That would fit as one of the divine commands of a God and as well I think of how Hoid once held a dawnshard and that is what makes him unable to hurt living things anymore... Wouldn't that make sense if it was because he held the dawnshard devoted to protecting all life? Just a crazy little theory here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valigus Posted February 8, 2021 Report Share Posted February 8, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 1:24 PM, mathiau said: Before RoW came, @Kinolee made this theory trying make group of four Shards tied to the same Dawnshard, I didn't see a new version after the revelations of RoW so I'm making one First, I'd like to start with this WoB From the difference in shape of the mural compared to the chart, it's likely the internal/external differentiation won't be present. It's possible the pushing/pulling one would be absent too but it's almost certain the four quadrant division will indeed be there. Since we cannot really separate Shards in four Dawnshard if we only know one of them, I'll do the same supposition as Kinolee did and assume Unite and Survive are two Dawnshards. Brandon had talked about a shard who decided to just hide and survive, it's possible it's Invention since he's currently hiding from Harmony but I'll assume he's not. Brandon once accidentally name-drop that a Shard was called "Ingenuity" I think Brandon ended up changing its name to Invention and I won't try to find it a Dawnshard. For the rest of this theory, I will call the Shards linked to a Dawnshard its "aspects" and I'll call the Shard in Hiding Tsih. Change Ruin: destruction, change toward maximal entropy. Cultivation: small nudge to the world so it become how you want it to be. Whimsy: changes for the sake of changing The shard we know nothing about. There could be a call to put Endowment here as "give to other so they change" but this is already included in Cultivation's small nudge. I mean, it's kind of like sowing thing in people. Unite Honour: I'm not even sure I need to argument here. I mean one the Radiants orders have unity as their endgame and prior to RoW half of use assumed Unity was either Honour+Odium or Honour+Odium+Cultivation Dominion, sometime called Conquest: Unite under one's rule Devotion, sometime called Love: Unite for a common cause. Odium. Yes, hate unites, it unite against someone or something, but it still unites. Another reason I put it here is the Shards Odium killed, you have Ambition -that even Endowment considered a problem while she sees neither the embodiment of hatred nor the embodiment of conquest as problems- and three aspects of Unity; which makes me believe he was specifically going after aspect of Unity, probably because it's easier too fuse two aspects of the same Dawnshard and he's himself an aspect of Unity. Survive Preservation: Kind of goes without saying. Mercy: letting the other live Autonomy: ability to survive on your own Tsih Something in the line of "Leave a Mark" Ambition: The will to leave a mark on the world Invention: Leave a mark on knowledge/technology Endowment: Leave a mark on other. I kind of see Endowment as that old woman who give a legendary weapon to the hero so they can beat the big bad, nobody will know about her but in way it's because of her the world is safe Valour: This one is a bit trickier, I feel like she belong here but I don't find a way to explaining it in a way that wouldn't suit Ambition better. So. What do you think of this classification? Do you have a better name for the fourth Dawnshard? I think this especially works because for unity you have motivators like odium and devotion and methods/ unity for its own sake ones like honor and dominion The leaving a mark ones all work well the survive ones are good I think valor is a survive shard it’s about dealing with situation where survival is not certain the change ones are good too Also what do we know about dawnshards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 On 08/02/2021 at 6:50 PM, Valigus said: Also what do we know about dawnshards Not much sadly. Hoid used to hold at least one that's related to the gem he mentioned to Kal. Him being immortal and unable to physically hurt people is a result of him holding a Dawnshard for a long time, the immortality part is common to every Dawnshards, no confirmation whether the non-violent part is specific to one of them. One of the Shards is different from the other The Dawncities where made using a Dawnshard. I want to say Change+Stoneshaping but I'm not sure whether the Dawncities predates Ashyn's destruction while it's almost certain Change arriving to Roshar happened after. There's a "Dawnshard known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" mentioned in The Poem of Ista which itself was mentioned in Jasnah's notes. This one is most likely still on Roshar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 So here’s my reworked theory: Change (Temporal): This is the one Rysn had (Push)Cultivation-(Pull)Ruin (external) (Push)Invention-(Pull)Whimsy (Internal) Connect (Unite) (Spiritual): This is the one that binds and is the second Rosharan Dawnshard (Push)Dominion-(Pull)Honor (External) (Push)Odium-(Pull)Devotion (Internal) Endure (Survive) (Physical): This is the one Hoid held and it may be on Scadrial. (Push)Industry-(Pull)Preservation (external) (Push)Prudence/Wisdom-(Pull)Mercy (internal) Aspire (Mental/Cognitive): We don’t really have any theories or guesses on this one, but it’s likely on a planet with an associated Shard. (Push)Autonomy-(Pull)Endowment (external) (Push)Ambition-(Pull)Valor (internal) I think one Shard of each group was given a Dawnshard to guard. Cultivation-Change Honor-Connect Preservation-Endure Endowment?-Aspire If I’m right, the fourth Dawnshard is on Nalthis and that’s why Edgli is so confident she can beat Rayse no matter what. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: So here’s my reworked theory: Change (Temporal): This is the one Rysn had (Push)Cultivation-(Pull)Ruin (external) (Push)Invention-(Pull)Whimsy (Internal) Connect (Unite) (Spiritual): This is the one that binds and is the second Rosharan Dawnshard (Push)Dominion-(Pull)Honor (External) (Push)Odium-(Pull)Devotion (Internal) Endure (Survive) (Physical): This is the one Hoid held and it may be on Scadrial. (Push)Industry-(Pull)Preservation (external) (Push)Prudence/Wisdom-(Pull)Mercy (internal) Aspire (Mental/Cognitive): We don’t really have any theories or guesses on this one, but it’s likely on a planet with an associated Shard. (Push)Autonomy-(Pull)Endowment (external) (Push)Ambition-(Pull)Valor (internal) I think one Shard of each group was given a Dawnshard to guard. Cultivation-Change Honor-Connect Preservation-Endure Endowment?-Aspire If I’m right, the fourth Dawnshard is on Nalthis and that’s why Edgli is so confident she can beat Rayse no matter what. Oooh, I like these. I think I might believe you on the Aspire dawnshard too, I haven't heard of it before but I do like the idea... Hmm. I wonder if Aspire was used by Edgli during the Awakening of Nightblood as part of the "funny business" going on with his creation? Lemme check for WoBs on Nightblood's Awakening and see if I can suss out something like that. Yup, found it after a solid 10 minutes of searching. Quote OrangeJedi When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal? Brandon Sanderson Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking. OrangeJedi Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special. Brandon Sanderson I would say, there is something special. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) So maybe Aspire was a part of awakening him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 18 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said: Oooh, I like these. I think I might believe you on the Aspire dawnshard too, I haven't heard of it before but I do like the idea... Hmm. I wonder if Aspire was used by Edgli during the Awakening of Nightblood as part of the "funny business" going on with his creation? Lemme check for WoBs on Nightblood's Awakening and see if I can suss out something like that. Yup, found it after a solid 10 minutes of searching. So maybe Aspire was a part of awakening him. I’m glad you like it! Thank you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 On 19/02/2021 at 3:31 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said: Permission to steal that to update the OP? I don't think Honour and Cultivation were the one chosen to take care of Unite and Change, Change almost certainly came to Roshar after Ashyn's destruction since Horneaters have story of it and we know Odium's human had one on Ashyn which probably was Unite since Ishar was already known as the Binder of Gods by that time. I think Change was given to Invention but at some point he decided to stop contact with the other Shards and sent his Dawnshard to Cultivation. For Unite I think it was given to Devotion and taking it from her was one of the reason Odium decided to take a stop to Sel while searching of Ambition, along with Devotion being the Shard the closest to being Odium's opposite. Spoiler Argent Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time? Brandon Sanderson Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override. Argent Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because-- Brandon Sanderson He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list. Argent Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person? Brandon Sanderson In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him-- Argent Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over-- Brandon Sanderson He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Permission to steal that to update the OP? I don't think Honour and Cultivation were the one chosen to take care of Unite and Change, Change almost certainly came to Roshar after Ashyn's destruction since Horneaters have story of it and we know Odium's human had one on Ashyn which probably was Unite since Ishar was already known as the Binder of Gods by that time. I think Change was given to Invention but at some point he decided to stop contact with the other Shards and sent his Dawnshard to Cultivation. For Unite I think it was given to Devotion and taking it from her was one of the reason Odium decided to take a stop to Sel while searching of Ambition, along with Devotion being the Shard the closest to being Odium's opposite. Hide contents Argent Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time? Brandon Sanderson Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override. Argent Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because-- Brandon Sanderson He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list. Argent Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person? Brandon Sanderson In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him-- Argent Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over-- Brandon Sanderson He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) You’re welcome to do so! I’m glad you like my theory! I like your theory about Change belonging to Invention first. It makes sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+En-priestess Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 I just posted a new theory of potential Dawnshards here so feel free to let me know what you think! I have: CHANGE - Cultivation, Whimsy, Ruin and Endowment CONSERVE/REMAIN - Preservation, Autonomy, Dominion and ? PROPEL - Valour, Invention, Ambition and Odium REFORGE/UNITE - Honour, Devotion, Mercy and ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 Oops, ignore those messages, was screwing around with finding what HTML the forums allow... and turns out adding a button to the text and clicking it will submit the post.... and I may have accidentally clicked it a couple times before I realize and spammed the message by mistake. Oopsies 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 On 2/26/2021 at 2:07 AM, Kahlani said: I just posted a new theory of potential Dawnshards here so feel free to let me know what you think! I have: CHANGE - Cultivation, Whimsy, Ruin and Endowment CONSERVE/REMAIN - Preservation, Autonomy, Dominion and ? PROPEL - Valour, Invention, Ambition and Odium REFORGE/UNITE - Honour, Devotion, Mercy and ? Propel sounds like another word for Aspire and Conserve/Remain for Endure... See my very similar theory above for comparison. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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