dawnshard Let's make groups of four, RoW edition

[KSub]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Since investiture cannot be destroyed, only transformed, you don't need a dedicated Destroy Dawnshard, the thing the closest to destruction we need would be irreversible changes, ie entropy increase, ie Ruin.

Excellent, so we agree!

I can't figure out what the fourth category would be though. Any thoughts?

 

[Malim]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:45 PM, KSub said:

Excellent, so we agree!

I can't figure out what the fourth category would be though. Any thoughts?

 

Possibly Build?  It has some of the same connotations as create, but it would be creating something new from what already is there.  It also could tie into Change.  It could hint at a greater division of two:

Build and Change

Ruin and ? (Can't think of anything offhand)

Note, this level is much more meta as Change and Ruin are just as aligned.  Maybe the four as pieces of a whole share a larger Intent?

[KSub]

11 hours ago, Malim said:

Possibly Build?  It has some of the same connotations as create, but it would be creating something new from what already is there.  It also could tie into Change.  It could hint at a greater division of two:

Build and Change

Ruin and ? (Can't think of anything offhand)

Note, this level is much more meta as Change and Ruin are just as aligned.  Maybe the four as pieces of a whole share a larger Intent?

I had considered growth, but much like the others it's similar to change. The problem is when you consider change to be so fundamental as to include creation and destruction as aspects of change it becomes difficult to come up with 4 categories of divine commands. 

[Halyo_Alex]

I'm just gonna throw in my quartet of Dawnshard commands and discuss them with you guys.

- Create

- Unite

- Change

- Destroy

Now allow me to explain.

First of all, the one that the most people will take objection to; "Destroy".

One of the underlying ideas I have with this set of Dawnshards is that it's a cycle, it repeats. What is destroyed is remade with Create. On a larger scale, these Commands would cause the Cosmere to be a cyclic universe, where the end ("destroying" matter by turning it into energy through decay) causes a new big bang or whatever, and thus restarts with "Create" making the new universe. So you iterate through the four Commands across the entire timespan of the Cosmere. You create matter, you Unite matter (make stars and planets and then solar systems and then galaxies and then galactic clusters) and then you change them (some stars become supergiants, planets undergo climate change, and so on) and then you destroy (matter decays over super long timespans until all that's left is radiation) and then you repeat, Creating new matter, Uniting it, Changing it, Destroying it, over and over.

Well that sort of ended up explaining all four, not just Destroy...

Also, this would do some explaining for why Nightblood is so weird; he's not just an Awakened sword, and not a Dawnshard himself, but the Command of "Destroy Evil" resonated with the primal Command of Destroy, which, theoretically, pulled in some of Ruin's Investiture. Now, why?

Well that's due to another part of my theory on the 4 Dawnshard Commands; and that's that each Shard was split from Adonalsium using 2 Dawnshards in combination, one after the other.

So, Ruin would have been the shard made by using Destroy twice. Once to split off a quarter of Adonalsium, then again to split a quarter of that quarter into a sixteenth of Ado. So it is strongly connected to the Destroy command of the Dawnshard, and so the Command of "Destroy Evil" is able to pull in Ruin's investiture to Nightblood during his Awakening.

It might also help that Nightblood was made of steel, and we know that Ruin is primarily invested in Scadrial, a planet where metal is the key to the investiture. But that's mostly bonus points.

So yeah I'm probably way off base here.

[Bejarden]

I've got one here me out

spoiler for space

Spoiler

So group 1 is change

ruin preservation honor cultivation

group 2 is serve ( or something like that)

dominion devotion endowment autonaomy

group 3 is emotion

odium ambition valor mercy

group 4 is drive ( or something that pushes you to act)

whimsy ?  ( I'm assuming this is prudence or something along that) invention and the unknown shard

 

so it works with positive shards and negative shards with each group having pairs of 2

dawnshard 1 change

honor is negative change and pared with cultivation a positive change , ruin is positive and preservation is negative 

dawnshard 2 serve 

domonion is positive and devotion is negative, autonomy is negative and endowment is positive ( this is shaky along with e/t else

dawnshard 3 emotion

odium is positive and mercy is negative ( having the ability to avoid passion to spare someone) ambition is positive and valor is negative

dawnshard 4 drive ( this one doesn't really work)

whimsy ( acting on whim) is positive and prudence ( thinking it out) is negative and invention I have no clue along with the uknown shard

 

---

So positive shards carry out the dawnshards command and negative ones counter it ( a push and a pull)

 

This probably makes no sense but at least I'm on record if I'm right

[KSub]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I've got one here me out

spoiler for space

  Hide contents

So group 1 is change

ruin preservation honor cultivation

group 2 is serve ( or something like that)

dominion devotion endowment autonaomy

group 3 is emotion

odium ambition valor mercy

group 4 is drive ( or something that pushes you to act)

whimsy ?  ( I'm assuming this is prudence or something along that) invention and the unknown shard

 

so it works with positive shards and negative shards with each group having pairs of 2

dawnshard 1 change

honor is negative change and pared with cultivation a positive change , ruin is positive and preservation is negative 

dawnshard 2 serve 

domonion is positive and devotion is negative, autonomy is negative and endowment is positive ( this is shaky along with e/t else

dawnshard 3 emotion

odium is positive and mercy is negative ( having the ability to avoid passion to spare someone) ambition is positive and valor is negative

dawnshard 4 drive ( this one doesn't really work)

whimsy ( acting on whim) is positive and prudence ( thinking it out) is negative and invention I have no clue along with the uknown shard

 

---

So positive shards carry out the dawnshards command and negative ones counter it ( a push and a pull)

 

This probably makes no sense but at least I'm on record if I'm right

I see what your going for. Someone else suggested somwthing similar with preservation being in the change category as the absence of change. I considered it but ultimately the groupings are no better and it seems to go against the idea of the dawnshard command.

[Bejarden]

Yeah *sigh* I guess we'll know in about 30 years

[mathiau]

On 30/01/2021 at 8:25 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Well that's due to another part of my theory on the 4 Dawnshard Commands; and that's that each Shard was split from Adonalsium using 2 Dawnshards in combination, one after the other.

I assume you're consider Change-Unite and Unite-Change not to be the same thing? This idea does make sense, I suppose it'd mean Adonalsium was stretch in four parts by the Dawnshard and each par was then stretched in four again.

12 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I've got one here me out

spoiler for space

  Reveal hidden contents

So group 1 is change

ruin preservation honor cultivation

group 2 is serve ( or something like that)

dominion devotion endowment autonaomy

group 3 is emotion

odium ambition valor mercy

group 4 is drive ( or something that pushes you to act)

whimsy ?  ( I'm assuming this is prudence or something along that) invention and the unknown shard

 

so it works with positive shards and negative shards with each group having pairs of 2

dawnshard 1 change

honor is negative change and pared with cultivation a positive change , ruin is positive and preservation is negative 

dawnshard 2 serve 

domonion is positive and devotion is negative, autonomy is negative and endowment is positive ( this is shaky along with e/t else

dawnshard 3 emotion

odium is positive and mercy is negative ( having the ability to avoid passion to spare someone) ambition is positive and valor is negative

dawnshard 4 drive ( this one doesn't really work)

whimsy ( acting on whim) is positive and prudence ( thinking it out) is negative and invention I have no clue along with the uknown shard

 

---

So positive shards carry out the dawnshards command and negative ones counter it ( a push and a pull)

 

This probably makes no sense but at least I'm on record if I'm right

Once again, how would God saying "change" create Preservation=stasis?

Also wouldn't Ambition, Valour and Autonomy be more logical in the Drive quadrant?

[+Bzhydack]

On 30.01.2021 at 8:25 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I'm just gonna throw in my quartet of Dawnshard commands and discuss them with you guys.

- Create

- Unite

- Change

- Destroy

Now allow me to explain.

First of all, the one that the most people will take objection to; "Destroy".

One of the underlying ideas I have with this set of Dawnshards is that it's a cycle, it repeats. What is destroyed is remade with Create. On a larger scale, these Commands would cause the Cosmere to be a cyclic universe, where the end ("destroying" matter by turning it into energy through decay) causes a new big bang or whatever, and thus restarts with "Create" making the new universe. So you iterate through the four Commands across the entire timespan of the Cosmere. You create matter, you Unite matter (make stars and planets and then solar systems and then galaxies and then galactic clusters) and then you change them (some stars become supergiants, planets undergo climate change, and so on) and then you destroy (matter decays over super long timespans until all that's left is radiation) and then you repeat, Creating new matter, Uniting it, Changing it, Destroying it, over and over.

Well that sort of ended up explaining all four, not just Destroy...

Also, this would do some explaining for why Nightblood is so weird; he's not just an Awakened sword, and not a Dawnshard himself, but the Command of "Destroy Evil" resonated with the primal Command of Destroy, which, theoretically, pulled in some of Ruin's Investiture. Now, why?

Well that's due to another part of my theory on the 4 Dawnshard Commands; and that's that each Shard was split from Adonalsium using 2 Dawnshards in combination, one after the other.

So, Ruin would have been the shard made by using Destroy twice. Once to split off a quarter of Adonalsium, then again to split a quarter of that quarter into a sixteenth of Ado. So it is strongly connected to the Destroy command of the Dawnshard, and so the Command of "Destroy Evil" is able to pull in Ruin's investiture to Nightblood during his Awakening.

It might also help that Nightblood was made of steel, and we know that Ruin is primarily invested in Scadrial, a planet where metal is the key to the investiture. But that's mostly bonus points.

So yeah I'm probably way off base here.

I like this the most. It is very plausible, so we can even try to organize known Shards.

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

I assume you're consider Change-Unite and Unite-Change not to be the same thing? This idea does make sense, I suppose it'd mean Adonalsium was stretch in four parts by the Dawnshard and each par was then stretched in four again.

I assume this it will be primary and secondary characteristic for every Shard. Primary characteristic is "What" Shard do, and secondary is "How" it do. For Example, Honor is binding by creation.

So lets begin:

Create/ Create: Invention

Create/Unite: Endovment

Create/Change: Cultivation

Create/Destroy: Autonomy

Unite/Create: Honor

Unite/Unite: Preservation (many can see Honor here, but I think Preservation has less Creation than Honor)

Unite/Change: Devotion

Unite/Destroy: Valor

Change/Create: Mercy

Change/Unite:

Change/Change: Whimsy

Change/Destroy:

Destroy/Create: Dominion

Destroy/Unite:

Destroy/Change: Odium

Destroy/Destroy: Ruin

[mathiau]

59 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

 

Could you elaborate on why you think each of these are where you put them?

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Could you elaborate on why you think each of these are where you put them?

I can. Most is rather obvious to me, but I can try explain my thoughts:

Invention - Has to be Create, its about new machines, ideas, nomen-omen inventions. New inventions becomes obsolete in time, so is need to create more and more, still new.

Endovment - Create-Unite, because Gift is most of the time unchaged thing, our or someone elses creation united with someone else. This is creation of Gifts, and Uniting them with others. And reciving gifts allows someone to create new thing from those gifts.

Cultivation - Obvious. Create-Change is literaly Life.

Autonomy - Also obvious. Create new things by deconstruction. Is about having smaller parts not-binded.

Honor - Unite-Create because goal is to Unite, by making bonds, creating one whole thing from smaller part.

Preservation - Unite-Unite because this mean one united thing will be one thing, unchanged.

Devotion - Unite-Change, because this is about bringing things/people together around sanctity or other high purpose, but is driven by life, and this mean this will change in time. Understanding of it will change.

Valor - Unite-Destrou, because this reflects possibility to unite under goal to overcome some chalange.

Mercy - Change-Create, because Mercy reflects if someone changes mind. It not have strict follow-up, it can have many outcoms from the same situation and every outcome can create something new.

Whimsy - also I think obvious. Change for the sake of change.

Dominion - Destroy-Create because is about building one thing, grow and dominate others, but also about destroying others on your path. Is like empire - destrying enemies and colapses.

Ambition - Destroy-Unite - is about goal under path. Uniting things under your control, but bringing destruction during this.

I'm not sure, but Ambition and Domnion could be reversed.

Odium - Destroy-Change. Emotions is change. They are not constant. Uncontroled passion is destructive, rings only chaos.

Ruin - Another obvious. Ruin, Destruction, Entropy.

[mathiau]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Cultivation - Obvious. Create-Change is literaly Life.

I would argue that Cultivation is more about manipulating nature than about everything in nature, but it'd still be Create-Change anyway.

Quote

Autonomy - Also obvious. Create new things by deconstruction. Is about having smaller parts not-binded.

I really don't understand your explanation. Autonomy is about being able to live without the guidance of other I don't see what creation and destruction have to do with that.

Also there's a word for "creating new thing by destruction", Change.

Quote

Devotion - Unite-Change, because this is about bringing things/people together around sanctity or other high purpose, but is driven by life, and this mean this will change in time. Understanding of it will change.

Devotion is essentially love, not sure whether that'd change a thing with what you're saying

Quote

Valor - Unite-Destrou, because this reflects possibility to unite under goal to overcome some chalange.

Valour is about courage, I really don't see what she'd have to do with Unity. Maybe Change would make more sense?

Quote

Dominion - Destroy-Create because is about building one thing, grow and dominate others, but also about destroying others on your path. Is like empire - destrying enemies and colapses.

If it's about dominating people by destroying ennemis, shouldn't it be Create-Destroy or Unite-Destroy?

Quote

Ambition - Destroy-Unite - is about goal under path. Uniting things under your control, but bringing destruction during this.

You can have many types of ambitions, ambition to create something, ambition to become something, ambition to obtain something. Destroy is far to limited compared to what Ambition is.

[Bejarden]

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

 

 how would God saying "change" create Preservation=stasis?

Also wouldn't Ambition, Valour and Autonomy be more logical in the Drive quadrant?

It a push and a pull

you make.a powerful dawnshard and ballance it out with its opposites ( it's not groupings it's checks and balances)

drive and emotion is different you use emotion to fuel your drive ( I can't think of a better word) 

again it's not so good but some of it works I think

[+Bzhydack]

@mathiau

Youve got some very valuable points here.

51 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I really don't understand your explanation. Autonomy is about being able to live without the guidance of other I don't see what creation and destruction have to do with that.

Also there's a word for "creating new thing by destruction", Change.

So, what suits Autonomy better? Change-Destroy? Or Change-Unite?
 But Change-Unite more suits Ambition...

53 minutes ago, mathiau said:

If it's about dominating people by destroying ennemis, shouldn't it be Create-Destroy or Unite-Destroy?

It seems like Unite-Destroy indeed suits Devotion better. Also

55 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Valour is about courage, I really don't see what she'd have to do with Unity. Maybe Change would make more sense?

I disagree, Valor is very much about Unity, and, more important, constancy. Maybe even "Constancy" would suits this one characteristic better? I see this not just making things whole, but also keeping them that way. And Valor is very much being constant in behaviour.

This will give us Valor: Destroy-Unite.

So, it will give us:

Create/ Create: Invention

Create/Unite: Endovment

Create/Change: Cultivation

Create/Destroy:

Unite/Create: Honor

Unite/Unite: Preservation

Unite/Change: Devotion

Unite/Destroy: Dominion (like it, basicly divide et impera)

Change/Create: Mercy

Change/Unite: (Ambition)

Change/Change: Whimsy

Change/Destroy: (Autonomy)

Destroy/Create:

Destroy/Unite: Valor

Destroy/Change: Odium

Destroy/Destroy: Ruin

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:37 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This has always been my argument against Create or Destroy as Dawnshards. Investiture/matter/energy can't be created or destroyed, so the Commands should be things that just modify existing stuff.

Has anyone considered one of the Dawnshards could be Connect?  Connection plays such a huge role in the Cosmere, and I personally think there is one Dawnshard that applies to each realm, with one of them being "different from the others".  Connect could be the Dawnshard specific to the creation of the Spiritual Realm or something like that...  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Has anyone considered one of the Dawnshards could be Connect?  Connection plays such a huge role in the Cosmere, and I personally think there is one Dawnshard that applies to each realm, with one of them being "different from the others".  Connect could be the Dawnshard specific to the creation of the Spiritual Realm or something like that...  

It's definitely something that I've thought about and has influenced my current thoughts on Dawnshards. I've shied away from using the word Connect, as imo, if it's a thing, it likely applies to more than just Connection, but it's an interesting possibility to me. 

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's definitely something that I've thought about and has influenced my current thoughts on Dawnshards. I've shied away from using the word Connect, as imo, if it's a thing, it likely applies to more than just Connection, but it's an interesting possibility to me. 

Unite takes the role of a Connection Dawnshard, IMO.

[11thHerald]

I think that the Dawnshards would be more along the lines of Change, Bind, Command (I want a better word for this because Command already has a certain meaning in the Cosmere but none really come to mind), and Think/Feel. I feel like Change signifies the power of creation but also change after creation. I think Bind is kind of like the different forces that, well, bind things together, as well as different societal constructs. I see Command as authority in different forms. And then I think Think/Feel is like the things that come from sentience: emotion and mental capacity.

Whimsy: Change

Cultivation: Change

Ruin: Change

Endowment: Change

Devotion: Command

Dominion: Command

Autonomy: Command

Ambition: Command

Invention: Think/Feel

Odium: Think/Feel

Mercy: Think/Feel

Assuming Survival Shard is Prudence/Wisdom: Think/Feel

Valor: Bind

Preservation: Bind

Honor: Bind

Of these Mercy, Ambition, and Valor are the ones I'm the most unsure about. If anyone has questions about why I grouped things this way I'm open to explaining my thought process.

[11thHerald]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

It's definitely something that I've thought about and has influenced my current thoughts on Dawnshards. I've shied away from using the word Connect, as imo, if it's a thing, it likely applies to more than just Connection, but it's an interesting possibility to me. 

I wonder if something like Bind could encompass that without the implications that Connection already has

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Unite takes the role of a Connection Dawnshard, IMO.

I've also shied away from the word Unite, for obvious reasons 

This time for the reason that, as of the current information we have, I think Dalinar having one would open too many holes. It's a possibility, but one I find unlikely at this moment in time. 

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've also shied away from the word Unite, for obvious reasons 

This time for the reason that, as of the current information we have, I think Dalinar having one would open too many holes. It's a possibility, but one I find unlikely at this moment in time. 

I dunno if Dalinar really has the Unite Dawnshard. There's definitely too much strangeness going on to just declare that as fact until we get more information. Maybe Honor hid Unite inside one of his own Splinters... Maybe the Stormfather? but in a way that makes it mostly inert.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, 11thHerald said:

I wonder if something like Bind could encompass that without the implications that Connection already has

I think the one I settled on was "Interact", in no small part because it made a better acronym, lol. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I dunno if Dalinar really has the Unite Dawnshard. There's definitely too much strangeness going on to just declare that as fact until we get more information. Maybe Honor hid Unite inside one of his own Splinters... Maybe the Stormfather? but in a way that makes it mostly inert.

The thing with it is, if Tanavast had a Dawnshard, why did he say they didn't have them?

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The thing with it is, if Tanavast had a Dawnshard, why did he say they didn't have them?

...Okay, you got me there.

Buuuut he was also crazy at the time he said that.

...And he didn't remember Change was somewhere on Roshar, anyway.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

...And he didn't remember Change was somewhere on Roshar, anyway.

Well, you're assuming he knew where it was. The Horneaters have legends of it entering the pool, but that doesn't mean anyone besides the lanceryn and Sleepless had any clue of the location.