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Let's make groups of four, RoW edition


mathiau

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Before RoW came,  @Kinolee made this theory trying make group of four Shards tied to the same Dawnshard, I didn't see a new version after the revelations of RoW so I'm making one

First, I'd like to start with this WoB

Quote

Stormgate

Can the 16 Shards be mapped onto the chart of Allomantic metals? i.e. does each Shard have a corresponding Allomantic metal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Shards were first. The metals are in a way a...further division on an established pattern.

General Twitter 2016 (Feb. 20, 2016)

From the difference in shape of the mural compared to the chart, it's likely the internal/external differentiation won't be present. It's possible the pushing/pulling one would be absent too but it's almost certain the four quadrant division will indeed be there.

Since we cannot really separate Shards in four Dawnshard if we only know one of them, I'll do the same supposition as Kinolee did and assume Unite and Survive are two Dawnshards.

Brandon had talked about a shard who decided to just hide and survive, it's possible it's Invention since he's currently hiding from Harmony but I'll assume he's not. Brandon once accidentally name-drop that a Shard was called "Ingenuity" I think Brandon ended up changing its name to Invention and I won't try to find it a Dawnshard.

For the rest of this theory, I will call the Shards linked to a Dawnshard its "aspects" and I'll call the Shard in Hiding Tsih.

 

  • Change
    • Ruin: destruction, change toward maximal entropy.
    • Cultivation: small nudge to the world so it become how you want it to be.
    • Whimsy: changes for the sake of changing
    • The shard we know nothing about. There could be a call to put Endowment here as "give to other so they change" but this is already included in Cultivation's small nudge. I mean, it's kind of like sowing thing in people.
  • Unite
    • Honour: I'm not even sure I need to argument here. I mean one the Radiants orders have unity as their endgame and prior to RoW half of use assumed Unity was either Honour+Odium or Honour+Odium+Cultivation
    • Dominion, sometime called Conquest: Unite under one's rule
    • Devotion, sometime called Love: Unite for a common cause.
    • Odium. Yes, hate unites, it unite against someone or something, but it still unites.
      Another reason I put it here is the Shards Odium killed, you have Ambition -that even Endowment considered a problem while she sees neither the embodiment of hatred nor the embodiment of conquest as problems- and three aspects of Unity; which makes me believe he was specifically going after aspect of Unity, probably because it's easier too fuse two aspects of the same Dawnshard and he's himself an aspect of Unity.
  • Survive
    • Preservation: Kind of goes without saying.
    • Mercy: letting the other live
    • Autonomy: ability to survive on your own
    • Tsih
  • Something in the line of "Leave a Mark"
    • Ambition: The will to leave a mark on the world
    • Invention: Leave a mark on knowledge/technology
    • Endowment: Leave a mark on other. I kind of see Endowment as that old woman who give a legendary weapon to the hero so they can beat the big bad, nobody will know about her but in way it's because of her the world is safe
    • Valour: This one is a bit trickier, I feel like she belong here but I don't find a way to explaining it in a way that wouldn't suit Ambition better.

So. What do you think of this classification? Do you have a better name for the fourth Dawnshard?

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5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Odium. Yes, hate unites, it unite against someone or something, but it still unites.

Ehh, idk. We see in RoW that questioning and fighting is something the Shard really likes, so I feel like Unity doesn't fit it, even if in some cases it can be used for that.

(I also strongly disagree with Unite or Survive being Dawnshards, but we know so little about them that eh, whatever.)

12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Brandon had talked about a shard who decided to just hide and survive

One other thing: the Intent of the Shard that wants to survive is only tangentially related to survival, and mostly it just knows what's going on and knows that staying out of sight is the best way to not die — which, y'know, most people would usually rather not die.

These two WoBs have led to the common theory that Wisdom is this Shard, though it's unknown whether this Shard might just be Ingenuity/Invention, and of course the WoBs are not confirmation that this "Wisdom" is this Shard anyway.

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6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I would almost put Preservation in change as the "Lack of" change but good job

I understand the idea, but I feel like "don't change" cannot be linked it an order of God telling to thing to change, it'd be like having Death as an aspect of Survival

13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ehh, idk. We see in RoW that questioning and fighting is something the Shard really likes, so I feel like Unity doesn't fit it, even if in some cases it can be used for that.

Yes, the unity brought by Odium will only last as long as the hate burn (as was seen at the shattered plains), but the other have similar issue, for example the unity brought a conqueror generally only last until his death.

Quote

(I also strongly disagree with Unite or Survive being Dawnshards, but we know so little about them that eh, whatever.)

Understandable

Quote

One other thing: the Intent of the Shard that wants to survive is only tangentially related to survival, and mostly it just knows what's going on and knows that staying out of sight is the best way to not die — which, y'know, most people would usually rather not die.

These two WoBs have led to the common theory that Wisdom is this Shard, though it's unknown whether this Shard might just be Ingenuity/Invention, and of course the WoBs are not confirmation that this "Wisdom" is this Shard anyway.

Self-survival is also only tangential too Mercy, honestly I put Tsih there because I believe it's intent will be very similar to Prudence, as this WoB implies.

Also, depending of what Brandon meant by Wisdom it can be very close to Prudence.

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Yes, the unity brought by Odium will only last as long as the hate burn (as was seen at the shattered plains), but the other have similar issue, for example the unity brought a conqueror generally only last until his death.

The main thing for me is that a conqueror is still trying to promote unity, even if it fails. Meanwhile, Odium the Shard actively opposes it, imo from what we have seen. It's just possible to exploit it to unite anyway.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Self-survival is also only tangential too Mercy

Yeah, I can see that, and if you're using those categories, it's good as any, I suppose. That WoB's just basically instinct whenever I see the Shard brought up this point, rather than a direct response to what you said :lol:

6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I believe it's intent will be very similar to Prudence, as this WoB implies.

Also, depending of what Brandon meant by Wisdom it can be very close to Prudence.

Yeah, that would certainly fit pretty well.

6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I understand the idea, but I feel like "don't change" cannot be linked it an order of God telling to thing to change, it'd be like having Death as an aspect of Survival

Strong agree. This is always my main problem with that idea: sure, it's connected to the idea of Change in a way, but if someone Commands you to Change, why would it give you the exact opposite?

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4 hours ago, mathiau said:
  • Change
    • Ruin: destruction, change toward maximal entropy.
    • Cultivation: small nudge to the world so it become how you want it to be.
    • Whimsy: changes for the sake of changing
    • The shard we know nothing about. There could be a call to put Endowment here as "give to other so they change" but this is already included in Cultivation's small nudge. I mean, it's kind of like sowing thing in people.
  • Unite
    • Honour: I'm not even sure I need to argument here. I mean one the Radiants orders have unity as their endgame and prior to RoW half of use assumed Unity was either Honour+Odium or Honour+Odium+Cultivation
    • Dominion, sometime called Conquest: Unite under one's rule
    • Devotion, sometime called Love: Unite for a common cause.
    • Odium. Yes, hate unites, it unite against someone or something, but it still unites.
      Another reason I put it here is the Shards Odium killed, you have Ambition -that even Endowment considered a problem while she sees neither the embodiment of hatred nor the embodiment of conquest as problems- and three aspects of Unity; which makes me believe he was specifically going after aspect of Unity, probably because it's easier too fuse two aspects of the same Dawnshard and he's himself an aspect of Unity.
  • Survive
    • Preservation: Kind of goes without saying.
    • Mercy: letting the other live
    • Autonomy: ability to survive on your own
    • Tsih
  • Something in the line of "Leave a Mark"
    • Ambition: The will to leave a mark on the world
    • Invention: Leave a mark on knowledge/technology
    • Endowment: Leave a mark on other. I kind of see Endowment as that old woman who give a legendary weapon to the hero so they can beat the big bad, nobody will know about her but in way it's because of her the world is safe
    • Valour: This one is a bit trickier, I feel like she belong here but I don't find a way to explaining it in a way that wouldn't suit Ambition better.

 

I would swap Valour and Odium but that's a close one

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4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The main thing for me is that a conqueror is still trying to promote unity, even if it fails. Meanwhile, Odium the Shard actively opposes it, imo from what we have seen. It's just possible to exploit it to unite anyway.

Fair point

41 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

I would swap Valour and Odium but that's a close one

I fail to see in Valour a part of Unity that's not already in Dominion, could you explain your idea?

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I would put Valour in the SURVIVE section since valour is seen as great courage in the face of danger, no just courage itself. It's courage when courage is needed to survive.

Maybe instead of "To Leave A Mark", the last section could be DIVINE/DIVINITY? This idea came about because of the description given to Odium in one of the epigraphs. "God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context". That's a really weird and specific way to describe Odium. So going with the theme of godly shards, my immediate picks are:

- Mercy seems a good pick. The mercy of God would be a good match to Odium's "divine hatred". Found a definition that says "a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion."

- Endowment. The magic system on Nalthis is literally based on a "Divine gift from God". The slivers on this planet literally subsist on Divine Breaths. Seems a given.

- Not certain on the last one. Maybe something to counter Endowment seeing as Odium and Mercy might be good counterparts. Invention?

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Good job, OP!

I would agree on the Survival Dawnshard theory being very tenuous, but I think Unity Dawnshard theory is on less shakier ground.

fyi: Wisdom/Prudence/hiding/Survival Shard might be the same, this part WoBs support, whether or not Invention is the one, we don't know

I would say Odium should be in Change. That's what Odium does and it what fuels it. It seeks to change things, it encourages dissent, disagreement, differences and conflict, not inherently bad but easy to to corrupt. 

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19 minutes ago, Honorless said:

but I think Unity Dawnshard theory is on less shakier ground.

One of the main problems I have with it:

If Dalinar's UNITE THEM is from a Dawnshard, that would mean Gavilar had it too, since he heard it as well. This would likely mean the Dawnshard was in the Stormfather or something similar, since that's both the connection between the two there and the source of it for Dalinar. And yet, Honor talks about the Dawnshards as if they are not accessible, which does not make sense if his pet spren has one, and it would be really odd if one got in there and he missed it. Plus, the whole UNITE THEM thing comes from Tanavast, so him not knowing about it is even weirder. 

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Oof I totally forgot! What about Hoid's Dawnshard? Hosting which apparently made it impossible for him to engage in violence or eat meat, what Command could that Dawnshard have been? 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer cannon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point. :)

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Edited by Honorless
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Im glad someone else is trying to put these together. I've felt like a crazy person theorizing how they all fit together but I was coming up short on making enough connections for a theory.

First thing, who is Tsih? I found no mention of this on the coppermind or the Arcanum.

Quote
Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)
#3 

Paleo

In May, in Germany, you told me that... or I asked whether Wisdom was a Shard, and you said it was or something like it, and that wisdom was close to an intent of a Shard, and you also told me that it has realized that survival isn't necessarily the most important thing for it. I wanted to ask whether it has realized that over time or was it from the get go?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time.

Paleo

Okay, so then naturally, my next question: Is it the survival Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Paleo

And then somebody actually came up with another good probable name. Is Prudence close?

Brandon Sanderson

Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there

So I think we can assume that the wisdom shard whatever it's exact intent is was the one who was trying to hide, but has since decided to stop. That doesn't feel right for a dawnshard, so I don't think survive is correct. We know change and something along the lines of unite seems right as well. 

I agree with all the choices for unite and change except Endowment. Odium wants to unite the Cosmere under his rule so I think that also fits with this theme.

That leaves invention, preservation, endowment, valour, ambition, autonomy, mercy and the remaining two.

I think one dawnshard could be create or grow or expand, something along those lines. It would include Invention, Preservation, and Endowment. 

Another possibility would be something like achieve.  This would include ambition, valour, and invention.

Unfortunately I can put the remainder of either option into a fourth category...

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14 hours ago, Malim said:

I'm not sure that I would include Mercy in the Survive group as by some definitions it is considered merciful to end a life that is suffering.  Also (minor shard spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

We know that Mercy helped Odium splinter Ambition.

 

By minor shard spoiler I guess you mean shardacast? Is it from the episode staring Brandon?

Vessels have been shown to go against their shard's intent a few times and the splintering of Ambition happened relatively early after the shattering, probably just a few hundred years. Mercy was probably far more free to act than Harmony currently is since the latter has two Shards and doesn't fight to not be change by his Shard and Harmony can still mind-control people despite his intent being about free will

11 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

Maybe instead of "To Leave A Mark", the last section could be DIVINE/DIVINITY? This idea came about because of the description given to Odium in one of the epigraphs. "God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context". That's a really weird and specific way to describe Odium. So going with the theme of godly shards, my immediate picks are:

All Shards are part of Adonalsium, aka God, so I doubt there will be a specific quadrant about divinity :)

12 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

I would put Valour in the SURVIVE section since valour is seen as great courage in the face of danger, no just courage itself. It's courage when courage is needed to survive.

So courage to save others? It could work but I think Valour will be wider than that.

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

I would say Odium should be in Change. That's what Odium does and it what fuels it. It seeks to change things, it encourages dissent, disagreement, differences and conflict, not inherently bad but easy to to corrupt. 

Valour and Ambition also fuel changes

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oof I totally forgot! What about Hoid's Dawnshard? Hosting which apparently made it impossible for him to engage in violence or eat meat, what Command could that Dawnshard have been?

The no violence part look a lot like what happened to Leras in SH so either Survival or all four

1 hour ago, KSub said:

Im glad someone else is trying to put these together. I've felt like a crazy person theorizing how they all fit together but I was coming up short on making enough connections for a theory.

First thing, who is Tsih? I found no mention of this on the coppermind or the Arcanum.

So I think we can assume that the wisdom shard whatever it's exact intent is was the one who was trying to hide, but has since decided to stop. That doesn't feel right for a dawnshard, so I don't think survive is correct. We know change and something along the lines of unite seems right as well. 

I agree with all the choices for unite and change except Endowment. Odium wants to unite the Cosmere under his rule so I think that also fits with this theme.

That leaves invention, preservation, endowment, valour, ambition, autonomy, mercy and the remaining two.

I think one dawnshard could be create or grow or expand, something along those lines. It would include Invention, Preservation, and Endowment. 

Another possibility would be something like achieve.  This would include ambition, valour, and invention.

Unfortunately I can put the remainder of either option into a fourth category...

Tsih is The Shard In Hiding. I'm the only person calling them that way :)

Archive does seems like a better name for the fourth category than the one I gave.

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I like these. I don't see it the same way, but seeing as we don't have much to go on for Dawnshards and their relationships with Shards, it works really well.

Now I give you my speculation:

Personally, I don't believe that Dawnshards have life based purposes. Survive would be a Command given only to living things. Non-living things would be more along the lines of Stasis (or Don't Change). Also, Survive doesn't sound like a Command to me. It implies a Stasis Command, which can really be called part of the Change Command (Don't Change).

Unite is probably a Command, although I'd call it Bind. The name Unite comes from Dalinar/Tanavast UNITE THEM, which I never thought had anything to do with Dawnshards. Occam's Razor says "Unite them" refers to creating political and social unity among the various groups on Roshar, not using a Dawnshard Command. Tanavast is telling Dalinar to seek unity, that the problems Dalinar is trying to solve have to do with Odium creating discord where it doesn't need to be. However, I'd still include a Bind Command among the Dawnshards.

Create is an obvious Dawnshard Command.

I think Destroy is another obvious Dawnshard Command.

So Create, Destroy, Change and Bind. 4 Commands that would allow a powerful being to do anything they wanted to do ever.

As far as throwing Shards into 4 categories: I believe the shards are varying combinations of all 4 Dawnshards, not categorized snippets based on each Dawnshard.

For instance (quick thoughts, a pie chart would have to be made for each one, I believe):

  • Honor is mostly Bind with little of the other 3.
  • Cultivation is Change and Bind with little Create or Destroy.
  • Odium is Change with little of the other 3
  • Ruin is Destroy and Change with little Create or Bind.
  • Preservation is Create with little of the other 3.
  • Devotion is Bind and Create with little Destroy or Change.
  • Dominion is Bind and Destroy with little Create or Change.
  • Endowment is Change and Bind with little Create or Destroy.
  • Ambition is Change and Create with little Bind or Destroy.
  • Mercy is Bind and Change with little Create or Destroy.
  • Autonomy is Create and Destroy with little Bind or Change.
  • Whimsy is Bind, Destroy and Change in equal measure with little Create.
  • Invention is Bind, Create and Change with little Destroy.
  • Valor is Destroy and Bind with little Create or Change.
  • etc.

In other words, the Commands that defined the Shard's Intent hit each of the 16 Shard's differently and nudged them in different directions. All 4 Dawnshards had to be used to chip away at Adonalsium and the configuration at each chip defined that Shard's Intent. The resulting Intent feels like a specific part of a god's psyche, but is really the Commands that particular Shard prefers as echoed in the Vessel's mind.

In other words, the breaking up of Adonalsium was more organic than the Intent names of the Shards make one believe. The definition of each Intent is an interpretation by the Vessel of the shadows left of Dawnshard Commands used to create that Shard. Every Shard has some level of every Dawnshard, so a solid set of categorizations isn't possible.

Of course, this has no basis in anything Brandon said. It's more how I'd write it.

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13 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

 

I had considered the possibility of the Shards being mix of the Dawnshards, the main issue is that you'll need a Shard associated with no Dawnshard. Which could actually make sense for Autonomy. (also you put Bind and Destroy twice)

Destroy is even more an a part of Change than Don't-Change

I don't think Create will be a Dawnshard. The name "Dawnshard" implies they are shard of something more primordial, probably Exist or Create, Adonalsium would then have separated it in four like the fundamental forces did in our world.

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wasn't that directly against the will of his Shard? Sja-anat remarks on that, iirc. 

I'm not sure about the Sja-anat comment. I can't recall it.

But there is a WOB stating that the reason Odium was splintering shards is because he wants to rule the cosmere and they are a threat. And I wouldn't say hate and being a ruler are in opposition, although it would be a terrible place to live.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I had considered the possibility of the Shards being mix of the Dawnshards, the main issue is that you'll need a Shard associated with no Dawnshard. Which could actually make sense for Autonomy. (also you put Bind and Destroy twice)

Destroy is even more an a part of Change than Don't-Change

I don't think Create will be a Dawnshard. The name "Dawnshard" implies they are shard of something more primordial, probably Exist or Create, Adonalsium would then have separated it in four like the fundamental forces did in our world.

I know what you mean about a create dawnshard but if the dawnshards are like divine commands of a creator god (and I think that is the general opinion) then I believe create needs to be one. Logical choices as @Leuthie pointed out would be create, destroy, change, and bind/unite.

But if you consider the Cosmere a universe in which entropy exists then it wouldn't be necessary for that God to have destroy as a core part of what it is. I know Ruin kind of represents this but that is only 1/16 of the whole and there is some measure of destruction in creating something. Sure your intention is to make something but in changing the parts of the whole they cease to be what they were.

I got pretty philosophical there, and maybe that makes it unnecessarily complicated but I think Brandon was probably thinking along the same lines when he came up with all of this.

images.jpeg.2c1d4cf424e50a8a8f1ac26198ee83ca.jpeg

Edited by KSub
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1 hour ago, KSub said:

I'm not sure about the Sja-anat comment. I can't recall it.

But there is a WOB stating that the reason Odium was splintering shards is because he wants to rule the cosmere and they are a threat. And I wouldn't say hate and being a ruler are in opposition, although it would be a terrible place to live.

Line I was thinking of was this:

Quote

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

Rayse wants to rule, but the power doesn't like that. It wants people to question and argue and stand up, and Rayse's insistence on demanding obedience conflicts with it and weakens him.

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27 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Line I was thinking of was this:

Quote

You question? Do not question.

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.

There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

Rayse wants to rule, but the power doesn't like that. It wants people to question and argue and stand up, and Rayse's insistence on demanding obedience conflicts with it and weakens him.

Rayse was a bad leader who didn't know how to deal with his underlings questioning him. This flaw was something the power didn't like. It wanted questions and arguments from its creations. It wanted to react to those things with passion.

That doesn't mean the Shard was against ruling the Cosmere. Ruling the Cosmere isn't in opposition to anger and passion. Quashing the passions of those being ruled would go against Odium, but ruling is probably something the Intent of the Shard doesn't care about one way or the other.

Edited by Leuthie
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2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Line I was thinking of was this:

Rayse wants to rule, but the power doesn't like that. It wants people to question and argue and stand up, and Rayse's insistence on demanding obedience conflicts with it and weakens him.

You could be right. Certainly Rayse wants to rule and I can think of someone else in his position who also wants to but it's possible that's just coincidence.

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3 hours ago, KSub said:

 Logical choices as @Leuthie pointed out would be create, destroy, change, and bind/unite.

But if you consider the Cosmere a universe in which entropy exists then it wouldn't be necessary for that God to have destroy as a core part of what it is. I know Ruin kind of represents this but that is only 1/16 of the whole and there is some measure of destruction in creating something. Sure your intention is to make something but in changing the parts of the whole they cease to be what they were.

I got pretty philosophical there, and maybe that makes it unnecessarily complicated but I think Brandon was probably thinking along the same lines when he came up with all of this.

Since investiture cannot be destroyed, only transformed, you don't need a dedicated Destroy Dawnshard, the thing the closest to destruction we need would be irreversible changes, ie entropy increase, ie Ruin.

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Since investiture cannot be destroyed, only transformed, you don't need a dedicated Destroy Dawnshard, the thing the closest to destruction we need would be irreversible changes, ie entropy increase, ie Ruin.

This has always been my argument against Create or Destroy as Dawnshards. Investiture/matter/energy can't be created or destroyed, so the Commands should be things that just modify existing stuff.

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