LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 34 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: It also depends on whether Ruin still exists. T is bound to promises Odium the Shard made. But Harmony is not Ruin and Preservation. Harmony is its own Shard. R&P formed the components, but the result was something new. Like if you take flour and water you end up with dough. Dough is not flour and not water, but something new created from those components. Except that this change created an entirely new element. So it’s entirely possible that since Harmony isn’t actually Ruin or Preservation, but an entirely new Shard, he isn’t bound by prior Shardic agreements. Which goes a long way toward explaining why other Shards want him ignorant... Ruin and Preservation are separate entities still. Quote little wilson Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both. Brandon Sanderson They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. I mean it's basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that. little wilson So, did the-- my gosh, on Sel-- the Aons-- not the Aons-- the seons did they exist before the Splintering? Brandon Sanderson They did not. That's a good question. But they are not the majority of the power. They're just little pieces, they are like the sparks when something gets destroyed. The sparks are not the majority but they are the sparks that were thrown off, if that makes sense? Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015) Quote Questioner If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has? Brandon Sanderson Read And Find Out. Questioner So for right now, there are fifteen Shards? Brandon Sanderson Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Sazed's two Shards do not "cancel out", as Brandon said that it would like being pulled by two huge gravitational tides. You can get to a way that you aren't instantly ripped apart, but that doesn't mean you don't feel it. (When asked what effect the Shards would have on Sazed, Brandon said, "Read Alloy of Law to find out".) Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011) Harmony also refers to them as two different things that he holds both of repeatedly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 14 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Ruin and Preservation are separate entities still. Harmony also refers to them as two different things that he holds both of repeatedly. If Sazed died he’d drop Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation. And while they could be split up, it wouldn’t be that simple. I’m too tired to look those up right now though, so if someone else would do it, I’d appreciate it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: If Sazed died he’d drop Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation. And while they could be split up, it wouldn’t be that simple. I’m too tired to look those up right now though, so if someone else would do it, I’d appreciate it. The two are "intermingled" and "would take effort to split apart", but they are still two separate things, and from the sound of it, Sazed himself is perfectly capable of splitting the powers apart. Quote Thanatos17901 If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.) /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013) Quote little wilson Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both. Brandon Sanderson They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. I mean it's basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that. ... Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said: The two are "intermingled" and "would take effort to split apart", but they are still two separate things, and from the sound of it, Sazed himself is perfectly capable of splitting the powers apart. Thanks for finding those. The fact that they can be split apart doesn’t mean they’re currently the original thing. And the fact that he’d drop Harmony indicates to me that they’re sufficiently altered from their original Shards that the Oaths attached to those Shards may no longer be binding. You can separate an alloy into its component parts, but it isn’t the simplest process. And the properties of an alloy are not the exact same of its component parts. If we consider Harmony an alloy (which makes sense for Scadrial) then I still think it’s no longer Ruin and Preservation enough to be bound by their Oaths. Just like we don’t talk about steel as ‘carbon and iron intermixed’ - even though that is what is - and expect it to have the properties of carbon and iron. The properties of Ruin and Preservation are not the same as those of their ‘alloy’ Harmony. Which doesn’t contradict any of the above, as you can unalloy an alloy, albeit with difficulty. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Thanks for finding those. The fact that they can be split apart doesn’t mean they’re currently the original thing. And the fact that he’d drop Harmony indicates to me that they’re sufficiently altered from their original Shards that the Oaths attached to those Shards may no longer be binding. You can separate an alloy into its component parts, but it isn’t the simplest process. And the properties of an alloy are not the exact same of its component parts. If we consider Harmony an alloy (which makes sense for Scadrial) then I still think it’s no longer Ruin and Preservation enough to be bound by their Oaths. Just like we don’t talk about steel as ‘carbon and iron intermixed’ - even though that is what is - and expect it to have the properties of carbon and iron. The properties of Ruin and Preservation are not the same as those of their ‘alloy’ Harmony. Which doesn’t contradict any of the above, as you can unalloy an alloy, albeit with difficulty. Except the only thing that points towards them being changed sufficiently is that they would drop tied together, which doesn't have to mean they're one thing (tie two twist ties together, they stay together, but are two different things). They have two separate Intents that pull Sazed two different ways constantly, Sazed can split off bits of each if he wants, ettmetal is so reactive because it's in conflict with itself Spiritually, Sazed refers to himself as holding two Shards rather than one, Brandon refers to them as two separate Shards, Brandon says his halves don't mesh well... (I posted most of these above, I'm just linking them again here for the sake of convenience [though a couple were not already posted].) If Harmony was truly combined into one thing, you'd expect it wouldn't rip itself apart with the slightest push like it seems to reaaaally want to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Except the only thing that points towards them being changed sufficiently is that they would drop tied together, which doesn't have to mean they're one thing (tie two twist ties together, they stay together, but are two different things). They have two separate Intents that pull Sazed two different ways constantly, Sazed can split off bits of each if he wants, ettmetal is so reactive because it's in conflict with itself Spiritually, Sazed refers to himself as holding two Shards rather than one, Brandon refers to them as two separate Shards, Brandon says his halves don't mesh well... (I posted most of these above, I'm just linking them again here for the sake of convenience [though a couple were not already posted].) If Harmony was truly combined into one thing, you'd expect it wouldn't rip itself apart with the slightest push like it seems to reaaaally want to do. It also creates a unique Godmetal. So I don’t think they can be that unmixed. There are plenty of unstable compounds in the RW. That doesn’t mean they aren’t very different when in compound form. The important thing isn’t whether or not Harmony is a stable compound or if it can return to its component parts. The question is whether or not the current compound is different enough that oaths on the distinct entities Ruin and Preservation do not apply to their mixture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: It also creates a unique Godmetal. So I don’t think they can be that unmixed. Honor and Cultivation also create mixed godmetals, but they're definitely separate Shards still. 2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: The important thing isn’t whether or not Harmony is a stable compound or if it can return to its component parts. The question is whether or not the current compound is different enough that oaths on the distinct entities Ruin and Preservation do not apply to their mixture. Fair. But again, we've seen zero indication it is, I feel. (In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to — I think you would more likely just run into the issue of having to uphold Oaths by all component Shards.) Though, Sazed probably has the power to release himself, as he controls both parties to the agreement in this case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Honor and Cultivation also create mixed godmetals, but they're definitely separate Shards still. Fair. But again, we've seen zero indication it is, I feel. (In fact, I'm not sure it's possible to — I think you would more likely just run into the issue of having to uphold Oaths by all component Shards.) Though, Sazed probably has the power to release himself, as he controls both parties to the agreement in this case. Which is also a definite possibility! Honor and Cultivation’s godmetals are described as alloys, btw. Harmonium is a completely different element, as opposed to a compound. It’s not an alloy of Atium and Lerasium, but has a different atomic structure. Shardblades are various combinations of Tanavastium and Koravelium, but are not new elements. Edited February 15, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Honor and Cultivation’s godmetals are described as alloys, btw. Harmonium is a completely different element, as opposed to a compound. It’s not an alloy of Atium and Lerasium, but has a different atomic structure. Shardblades are various combinations of Tanavastium and Koravelium, but are not new elements. That's more Brandon using imprecise terminology than anything else, to my understanding (which could be wrong). (I believe he's implied ettmetal's an alloy a few times too, which is definitely wrong, as you mentioned.) Quote Alpharho The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals? Brandon Sanderson No, but good question. Alpharho Are all orders the same alloy, essentially? Brandon Sanderson Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy. Alpharho So, different proportions of tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to. Alpharho Would you say different ratios of the same two metals? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing. Alpharho But you won't say what that thing is called? Brandon Sanderson No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) I can see it being open to interpretation, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: That's more Brandon using imprecise terminology than anything else, to my understanding (which could be wrong). (I believe he's implied ettmetal's an alloy a few times too, which is definitely wrong, as you mentioned.) I can see it being open to interpretation, though. He basically describes an alloy exactly there. Different percentages of two different compounds. The thing is, it’s a sapient being manifesting as a metal. Which, understandably, you can’t just pull apart. (Although, technically we do refer to alloys as ‘one thing.’) Harmonium is a completely different element though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: It also creates a unique Godmetal. So I don’t think they can be that unmixed. There are plenty of unstable compounds in the RW. That doesn’t mean they aren’t very different when in compound form. Well, yes and no Quote Questioner If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined? Brandon Sanderson It's different after the Shards combined. Questioner If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly? Brandon Sanderson No, you would-- It actually has become a different-- Questioner Can't be split? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) Quote Questioner Could [Sazed] also bring back lerasium beads, if he wanted to? Brandon Sanderson It would be within his power to do so, yes. Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015) Also, to nuance the "he would drop Harmony" thing Quote CosmereQuestioner Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent. You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter? And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation? Brandon Sanderson Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation. General Signed Books 2017 (March 7, 2017) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSub Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 I really like where this discussion went. Full disclosure I'm in the Harmony is one thing camp. This would likely mean, as Kingsdaughter suggested, that the agreements the vessels made at the shattering wouldn't hold for Harmony. To clear up one point: Quote Questioner Can't be split? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means. From the coppermind Quote Properties Harmonium is the condensed elemental form of Harmony's power. Alloying atium and lerasium will not give harmonium. Chemical Properties[edit] Due to the merging of Ruin and Preservation's intents into Harmony, ettmetal's Spiritual aspect is in opposition with itself, leading to effects on the metal's Physical aspect, which makes it extremely reactive.[4][5] It reacts violently with water, similar to alkali metals. After reacting with water, residual ettmetal hydroxide is left behind, though the substance's properties are unknown So we see that Harmonium is elemental, like oxygen, hydrogen or potassium. Mixing atium and lerasium does not produce harmonium, just as combining the three elements mentioned does not produce Nickel. It's spiritual aspect is in opposition to itself which makes ettmetal highly reactive. Using our example, combining potassium metal with water produces a violent reaction but the result is still potassium. Nuclear fission breaks atoms up into two separate atoms. This is the most analogous example I can think of as to what Brandon was saying. To use our previous example potassium can decay to calcium or argon, completely different elements that can not be achieved through physical means. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said: He basically describes an alloy exactly there. Different percentages of two different compounds. The thing is, it’s a sapient being manifesting as a metal. Which, understandably, you can’t just pull apart. (Although, technically we do refer to alloys as ‘one thing.’) Except what he says is that it's not actually quite specific ratios. It's sort of how you can think of it, but isn't an exact representation of what's happening, because they're one thing, not an alloy of two things. At least, that's how I read it, but it's up for interpretation, I suppose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Except what he says is that it's not actually quite specific ratios. It's sort of how you can think of it, but isn't an exact representation of what's happening, because they're one thing, not an alloy of two things. At least, that's how I read it, but it's up for interpretation, I suppose. Alloys tend not to be very specific ratios either, actually. For example, there are many forms of steel alloy - including cast iron! Allomantic steel has a specific alloy, but most steel is just any mix of carbon and iron in varying amounts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 46 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Alloys tend not to be very specific ratios either, actually. For example, there are many forms of steel alloy - including cast iron! Allomantic steel has a specific alloy, but most steel is just any mix of carbon and iron in varying amounts. Yeah, but each individual piece of metal has a (theoretically) measurable ratio, right? (Measuring the exact ratio does sound probably impractical, though, lol) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 16, 2021 Report Share Posted February 16, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Alloys tend not to be very specific ratios either, actually. For example, there are many forms of steel alloy - including cast iron! Allomantic steel has a specific alloy, but most steel is just any mix of carbon and iron in varying amounts. Well, yes and no. Almost anything with less than 2% mass carbon is called steel but different steels have vastly different properties, you can't really compare tool steel with stainless steel or spring steel Also cast iron is not steel, steel is carbonated iron with less than 2% of it's mass as carbon and cast iron is carbonated iron with more than 2% of it's mass as carbon 4 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Yeah, but each individual piece of metal has a (theoretically) measurable ratio, right? (Measuring the exact ratio does sound probably impractical, though, lol) I'm pretty sure there are methods to get a very precise measurement of the ratios, destructive methods I'd bet but still methods. So, there's a measurable ratio 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parzival Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 I think that Harmony is probably fundamentally different enough to not be bound by any previous oaths from Ruin or Preservation. If they are melded to the point where Brandon says they will drop Harmony then his inability to act due to the conflicting forces is probably more similar to how when I get ice cream I'm conflicted about getting a large cs a small cause on one hand I want lots of ice cream, but on the other hand I know if I eat too many sweets I will get fat. They're just different views that are stronger than in most people because they come from a shardic source. Also, if the shardblades weren't alloys and were fundamentally different from the mixing of tanavastium and koravelium like harmonium/ettmetal they would have differnt qualities. However all shardblades have the same quality of being able to cut through anything and also sever souls, and no unique qualities, at least that we know of, and I think unique qualities is unlikely. Furthermore, the honorblades have the same quality and they are purely of honor so that shows that shardblades have not been fundamentally changed the way harmonium was, leading me to believe that Harmony is, if not a complete blend, a very mixed and intermingled combination of Ruin and Preservation, to the point of most likely being more combined than I think even Sazed realizes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla of Colors Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 On 2/1/2021 at 4:08 PM, Waffles said: These are interesting questions. I think you also need existing investiture and a vaccuum to create anti-light. But I think because if preservation's tone is similar to anti light playing either tone would effectively be anti-harmony and suppress the opposite power while strengthening ruin or preservation's aspect. Harmony might be unique in the cosmere on this. Since odium has to obey the promises made by his predecesor wouldnt that also mean that Harmony may ultimately destroy scadrial? Ruin was promised that he could destroy Scadrial, but wasn't given a deadline or anything like that. Also Harmony is both Ruin and Preservation so... It's possible that Harmony could destroy Scadrial by letting it destroy itself... maybe? But also, are all of the separate shards the same as Adonalsium? Are the mixed rhythms the same as they used to be? It's possible that Harmony won't have to keep any of the promises or deals that Ruin and Preservation made, simply because Harmony is 1) Ruin + Preservation and 2) neither Ruin nor Preservation. Hopefully this makes sense to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffles Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 I think there's two schools of thought shardic oath. One is that Harmony has power over the two shards the other is that the two shards have power over harmony. If the former is what is dominant than we find that harmony can convince the shards it is in their interest to renegotiate the deal as a broker, exchanging ruin here for ruin there to maybe maximize preservation in some way. Alternately if shardic intents have the final say then its possible Harmony cannot renegotiate those deals without getting damaged by a shard. I just dont understand what the shard ruin would get in exchange for an entire world to destroy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamwa1ker Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) My working theory is Ruin will still get to destroy it, just not until space-age when Scadrians make a world-ship or space station or are colonizing. Maybe Harmony even lets the Ruin aspect be this looming threat of world destruction in order to drive the Scadrians to develop the tech to get into space - Harmony had been musing in one of the era 2 books that he might have made it too easy for people after the catacendre and they'd be complacent instead of developing... EDIT Found the quote, Shadows of Self chapter 7 Quote Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization. “The … radio? What is that?” You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed … I made a mistake Edited March 18, 2021 by Dreamwa1ker Added quote 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parzival Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 7 hours ago, Waffles said: I think there's two schools of thought shardic oath. One is that Harmony has power over the two shards the other is that the two shards have power over harmony. If the former is what is dominant than we find that harmony can convince the shards it is in their interest to renegotiate the deal as a broker, exchanging ruin here for ruin there to maybe maximize preservation in some way. Alternately if shardic intents have the final say then its possible Harmony cannot renegotiate those deals without getting damaged by a shard. I just dont understand what the shard ruin would get in exchange for an entire world to destroy. I don't think the shards can be convinced, because they aren't sentient. Yes the intent of the shards can impact the vessel and change their views and limit their actions, but hte shards themselves aren't sentient enough to need to be convinced of anything. The way I see it is that Harmony is different from ruin or preservation and is therefore not bound by any previous oaths, and even if he isn't he now controls both shards and can just make a new deal between them or since he controls both parties he can end the promise form both sides. Also, we aren't certain it was an actual oath, probably more of a ruin knew preervation would be weakened so they agreed he would eventually destroy the world and there was nothing preservation could do to stop him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 22 minutes ago, Parzival said: Also, we aren't certain it was an actual oath, probably more of a ruin knew preervation would be weakened so they agreed he would eventually destroy the world and there was nothing preservation could do to stop him. It's definitely a proper oath that he'd be allowed to, though that doesn't necessarily require he choose to exercise that right. Quote “It can’t be stopped. The deal…” “Deals can be broken.” “Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parzival Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: It's definitely a proper oath that he'd be allowed to, though that doesn't necessarily require he choose to exercise that right. Thanks for that clarification, I hadn't remebered fuzz saying that. I agree, even with the oath that he could destroy it, it would still be ruin's choice when and how to destroy it and even if he actually would 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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