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Harmony's Rhythms


Eldergod3

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Been thinking about this since I finished RoW, what if Sazed hasn't figured out how to adjust Ruin and Preservation's Rhythms? He views them as opposing forces, could explain why Harmonium is so volatile. Navani and Raboniel and then Navani and The Sibling had to adjust the Tones as they were singing, bringing them closer together to create the Rhythms of War and "Science".

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On 1/25/2021 at 3:37 AM, Eldergod3 said:

Been thinking about this since I finished RoW, what if Sazed hasn't figured out how to adjust Ruin and Preservation's Rhythms? He views them as opposing forces, could explain why Harmonium is so volatile. Navani and Raboniel and then Navani and The Sibling had to adjust the Tones as they were singing, bringing them closer together to create the Rhythms of War and "Science".

Yeah but how Preservation and Ruin's power interacted with one another is notably different from how Honor and Odium's power interacted with one another.

Even amongst other Shards, Preservation and Ruin were particularly opposite to one another:

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Why were Ruin and Preservation linked together?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because they're such perfect opposites. Basically it's just an opposites attract thing.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

Conceptually too, Preservation and Ruin are much more of an antonym to one another than any other Shardic Intent pairings.

Stormlight and Voidlight didn't really repel one another, they didn't react to one another at all. Preservation's Mist on the other hand drew back from Hemalurgic piercings. Preservation and Ruin's Investiture actually hurt each other upon contact.

I think Ruin and Preservation's Rhythms are particularly close to one another's Anti-Rhythms.

Edited by Honorless
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13 hours ago, Honorless said:

Yeah but how Preservation and Ruin's power interacted with one another is notably different from how Honor and Odium's power interacted with one another.

Even amongst other Shards, Preservation and Ruin were particularly opposite to one another:

Conceptually too, Preservation and Ruin are much more of an antonym to one another than any other Shardic Intent pairings. The one that comes closest imo is Devotion and Odium.

Stormlight and Voidlight didn't really repel one another, they didn't react to one another at all. Preservation's Mist on the other hand drew back from Hemalurgic piercings. Preservation and Ruin's Investiture actually hurt each other upon contact.

I think Ruin and Preservation's Rhythms are particularly close to one another's Anti-Rhythms.

This worries me.

Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial out of nothing but their own investiture, based on the non-fainlife parts of Yolen.

...That means all of the matter on Scadrial is technically part of Preservation and Ruin's power...

So you could blow up the planet using anti-tones?? Seems a bit extreme...

Certainly it sounds like you could hurt Scadrians using Preservation's anti-tone if it was loud enough (...which is technically true for any sound, but you know what I mean. You could repel/negate the extra bit of Preservation inside a Scadrian that gives them sentience if you had an anti-tone strong enough.)

...Also, could you wipe/destroy the charge of a Spike with anti-tones?

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12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

This worries me.

Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial out of nothing but their own investiture, based on the non-fainlife parts of Yolen.

...That means all of the matter on Scadrial is technically part of Preservation and Ruin's power...

So you could blow up the planet using anti-tones?? Seems a bit extreme...

Certainly it sounds like you could hurt Scadrians using Preservation's anti-tone if it was loud enough (...which is technically true for any sound, but you know what I mean. You could repel/negate the extra bit of Preservation inside a Scadrian that gives them sentience if you had an anti-tone strong enough.)

...Also, could you wipe/destroy the charge of a Spike with anti-tones?

Matter made from Investiture is still matter. Is no longer Investiture. So it shouldnt work.

Also, Anti-tones seems to work better if something is more Invested (Has larger Connection to the Shard) and Scadrians are not very Invested, even Allomancers arent.

Probably yes, but I think spike need to be directly resonated. Should work on metalmind as well.

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Its interesting, because Hero of Ages focuses a lot on the idea of complementary opposites. We have that whole scene where Spook is reflecting on burning tin and pewter simultaneously, and how right they feel together, and Sazed himself describes the power of Ruin and Preservation as more powerful together than apart. I have to wonder if the relationship between Ruin and Preservation is more complex than we think. Perhaps if we could compare their pure tones we'd see that they each contain both the others anti-tone and their (I guess we don't have a word for it) complimentary tone. So every moment their investitures are brought together, they both want to merge into their hybrid and destroy each other as they move through their rhythms. Even if not, I have a feeling that their tones have a very interesting relationship and would be fascinating to compare.

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On 1/26/2021 at 9:19 AM, HSuperLee said:

Its interesting, because Hero of Ages focuses a lot on the idea of complementary opposites. We have that whole scene where Spook is reflecting on burning tin and pewter simultaneously, and how right they feel together, and Sazed himself describes the power of Ruin and Preservation as more powerful together than apart. I have to wonder if the relationship between Ruin and Preservation is more complex than we think. Perhaps if we could compare their pure tones we'd see that they each contain both the others anti-tone and their (I guess we don't have a word for it) complimentary tone. So every moment their investitures are brought together, they both want to merge into their hybrid and destroy each other as they move through their rhythms. Even if not, I have a feeling that their tones have a very interesting relationship and would be fascinating to compare.

Maybe instead of a comparison to antimatter, we could try making a comparison with Super-symmetry? I know it might seem a bit out of place, but the base concept of it (to my understanding) is the idea that all of the fundamental particles we know of have a "super-symmetric" partner, which tends to be more massive, and instead of having an inverse charge and all that, a super-symmetric boson (force-transmitting particles like the photon) would be a fermion (like quarks and electrons). So maybe Preservation and Ruin are super-symmetric Intents, or something evocative of the same concept.

EDIT: went and double-checked on Wikipedia: the key difference between a particle and its supersymmetric counterpart is the addition of a half-integer spin, which swaps the particle between being a Fermion or a Boson (bosons all have whole-integer spins, Fermions have half-integer spins). So maybe Ruin has a "half-integer spin" compared to Preservation, but is otherwise virtually identical?

Or maybe Ruin is the Anti-Supersymmetric version of Preservation??

EDIT 2: Also, to offer my 2 clips on what a supersymmetric Intent would be in terms of realmatics, it could be related to something like Light polarization. Adding a "half spin" (i know in particle physics it's not actual rotation) to Intent might make the "wave" become perpendicular to the norm, which would probably do all kinds of weird stuff.

As for how you'd even add/subtract "half spin" to/from an Intent, I dunno. Maybe it's as simple as Intending to make it the Supersymmetric Tone instead of the Anti Tone or Pure tone.

Edited by Halyo_Alex
Fact-checked Supersymmetry, offered a hypothesis on what a Supersymmetric Intent would entail
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On 1/25/2021 at 0:13 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

This worries me.

Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial out of nothing but their own investiture, based on the non-fainlife parts of Yolen.

...That means all of the matter on Scadrial is technically part of Preservation and Ruin's power...

So you could blow up the planet using anti-tones?? Seems a bit extreme...

Certainly it sounds like you could hurt Scadrians using Preservation's anti-tone if it was loud enough (...which is technically true for any sound, but you know what I mean. You could repel/negate the extra bit of Preservation inside a Scadrian that gives them sentience if you had an anti-tone strong enough.)

...Also, could you wipe/destroy the charge of a Spike with anti-tones?

These are interesting questions. I think you also need existing investiture and a vaccuum to create anti-light. But I think because if preservation's tone is similar to anti light playing either tone would effectively be anti-harmony and suppress the opposite power while strengthening ruin or preservation's aspect. Harmony might be unique in the cosmere on this.

Since odium has to obey the promises made by his predecesor wouldnt that also mean that Harmony may ultimately destroy scadrial?

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On 1/26/2021 at 1:50 AM, Bzhydack said:

Matter made from Investiture is still matter. Is no longer Investiture. So it shouldnt work.

Also, Anti-tones seems to work better if something is more Invested (Has larger Connection to the Shard) and Scadrians are not very Invested, even Allomancers arent.

Probably yes, but I think spike need to be directly resonated. Should work on metalmind as well.

Brandon has described matter, energy, and investiture as being different forms of the same thing. I think that saying it’s no longer investiture is just plain wrong.

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10 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

Brandon has described matter, energy, and investiture as being different forms of the same thing. I think that saying it’s no longer investiture is just plain wrong.

Matter and energy are the "same" thing in our world yet they are still distinct and separate things, not one and the same

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10 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

Brandon has described matter, energy, and investiture as being different forms of the same thing. I think that saying it’s no longer investiture is just plain wrong.

Exactly. DIFFERENT forms.

In our world also Matter and Energy are the same thing essentialy. But behawes differently. This is the same eqasion in Cosmere, just have Investiture as third part.

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20 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

Brandon has described matter, energy, and investiture as being different forms of the same thing. I think that saying it’s no longer investiture is just plain wrong.

It's not uniquely different but it's no longer the same thing. Just as actual matter is energy but it's not energy. Matter has different properties. What is true for energy is not inherently true for matter.

I don't see why anti investiture should destroy matter

Edit:

Ok! So I think we are all in agreement after that torrent of responses. @basement_boi I'll give you an up vote for uniting the 17th shard on this point.

Edited by KSub
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27 minutes ago, KSub said:

It's not uniquely different but it's no longer the same thing. Just as actual matter is energy but it's not energy. Matter has different properties. What is true for energy is not inherently true for matter.

I don't see why anti investiture should destroy matter

Edit:

Ok! So I think we are all in agreement after that torrent of responses. @basement_boi I'll give you an up vote for uniting the 17th shard on this point.

I think I misinterpreted @Bzhydack’s statement. I was thinking that since all matter is made of Investiture from Adonalsium, and therefore all shards, matter would not react to anti-investiture. I interpreted his statement as saying that matter and investiture are not interchangeable. Sorry about that. I agree with all of you.

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On 1/24/2021 at 4:07 PM, Eldergod3 said:

Been thinking about this since I finished RoW, what if Sazed hasn't figured out how to adjust Ruin and Preservation's Rhythms? He views them as opposing forces, could explain why Harmonium is so volatile. Navani and Raboniel and then Navani and The Sibling had to adjust the Tones as they were singing, bringing them closer together to create the Rhythms of War and "Science".

Yes! Harmony needs an emulsifier- a shared purpose. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 01/02/2021 at 10:08 PM, Waffles said:

These are interesting questions. I think you also need existing investiture and a vaccuum to create anti-light. But I think because if preservation's tone is similar to anti light playing either tone would effectively be anti-harmony and suppress the opposite power while strengthening ruin or preservation's aspect. Harmony might be unique in the cosmere on this.

Interestingly, particle that are they're own anti-particule exits in reality, photon or gluons for example, so it's a shard being it's own anti-shard is not out of question.

Quote

Since odium has to obey the promises made by his predecesor wouldnt that also mean that Harmony may ultimately destroy scadrial?

We're not sure how this promises thing works, Shards had agreed not to settle on the same planet but that was not a strong enough promise to make them OSable by Odium

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16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We're not sure how this promises thing works, Shards had agreed not to settle on the same planet but that was not a strong enough promise to make them OSable by Odium

Only some made such a promise, others did not, Endowment believed that a promise was made, but others would disagree.

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17 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That would make sense

Is this from a WoB?

Yeah

Spoiler

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah

  Reveal hidden contents

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Then I see no reason for Harmony to be bound to destroy Scadrial, the agreement Ruin talk about was probably something like that

Lera: I want to infuse the humans with more of my essence

Ati: You know that will someday allow be to destroy the world without you being able to do anything?

Lera: Yeah, yeah *fingers crossed*

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Just now, mathiau said:

Then I see no reason for Harmony to be bound to destroy Scadrial, the agreement Ruin talk about was probably something like that

Lera: I want to infuse the humans with more of my essence

Ati: You know that will someday allow be to destroy the world without you being able to do anything?

Lera: Yeah, yeah *fingers crossed*

It all depends on whether or not Ruin got an actual Oath, and in SH Leras seems to think it was binding.

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Then I see no reason for Harmony to be bound to destroy Scadrial, the agreement Ruin talk about was probably something like that

Lera: I want to infuse the humans with more of my essence

Ati: You know that will someday allow be to destroy the world without you being able to do anything?

Lera: Yeah, yeah *fingers crossed*

What if Harmony is planning to get the Scadrians to the space age so they can leave for other worlds or don't need a planet - then makes good on the deal to destroy it? Thereby Ruin-ing the planet but Preserv-ing the people.

Edited by Dreamwa1ker
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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Then I see no reason for Harmony to be bound to destroy Scadrial, the agreement Ruin talk about was probably something like that

Lera: I want to infuse the humans with more of my essence

Ati: You know that will someday allow be to destroy the world without you being able to do anything?

Lera: Yeah, yeah *fingers crossed*

Leras seems to consider it binding in SH, but the exact wording probably matters. Ex. if they said "will" or "can". 

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4 hours ago, Frustration said:

It all depends on whether or not Ruin got an actual Oath, and in SH Leras seems to think it was binding.

It also depends on whether Ruin still exists. T is bound to promises Odium the Shard made. But Harmony is not Ruin and Preservation. Harmony is its own Shard.

R&P formed the components, but the result was something new. Like if you take flour and water you end up with dough. Dough is not flour and not water, but something new created from those components. Except that this change created an entirely new element.

So it’s entirely possible that since Harmony isn’t actually Ruin or Preservation, but an entirely new Shard, he isn’t bound by prior Shardic agreements. Which goes a long way toward explaining why other Shards want him ignorant...

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