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Roshar vs. Sel


Frustration

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We have yet to see an Elantrian come close to destroying stone, let alone metal. Now they could change it into something, but that requires them to get close enough and stand there to draw an Aon. Lightweavers would kill them with laser attacks before they finished.

Aon Daa can definitely do that. And we have yet to see Aon magitech beside the Ashe illuminating plates but there are definitely ways to do Daa rocket launchers, Ashe lasers guns, Edo halfshards and maybe even Shao Soulcasters. Also you can have Seon manifest as Shardblades

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Aon Daa can definitely do that. And we have yet to see Aon magitech beside the Ashe illuminating plates but there are definitely ways to do Daa rocket launchers, Ashe lasers guns, Edo halfshards and maybe even Shao Soulcasters. Also you can have Seon manifest as Shardblades

These all being things they would have to have figured out though to even match the rosharans.

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5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Aon Daa can definitely do that. And we have yet to see Aon magitech beside the Ashe illuminating plates but there are definitely ways to do Daa rocket launchers, Ashe lasers guns, Edo halfshards and maybe even Shao Soulcasters

Doable doesn't mean they know how, which they might. But we will assume they are still locked to Elantrian, which severally limits their effectiveness.

As for Seons that is something even more complex to figure out. It's be easier to make Aondor Nightblood

Edited by Frustration
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18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We have yet to see an Elantrian come close to destroying stone, let alone metal. Now they could change it into something, but that requires them to get close enough and stand there to draw an Aon. Lightweavers would kill them with laser attacks before they finished.

And when have we seen Lightweavers use lasers?

13 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Yeah or they would be killed by dustbringers or have the air soulcast into oil and burned or windrunners or sky breakers could kill them moving super fast

Aon Shardplate is very likely viable. And could likely be if not mass produced, produced in decently large quantities. 

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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And when have we seen Lightweavers use lasers?

Aon Shardplate is very likely viable. And could likely be if not mass produced, produced in decently large quantities. 

I think if we can assume that they figure out how to mad produce shardplate equivalent then the Lightweavers can figure out lasers.

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1 hour ago, Valigus said:

But do they have as much knowledge about the actual nature of investiture because roshar has a lot of that.

Considering the Ire exists, I think it's pretty safe to say they have a good understanding of Investiture as well

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they would need to know about the light weaving though. And In that case and this is why they are way better then kandra you still have a tank in the middle of your people one who can soulcast too.

Or a ward that disrupts all Lightweaving in an area. 

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yeah bondsmiths are a huge strategic advantage and I could be wrong here but would it not be possible to sever the connection to the dor for all elentrians which would remove their power and maybe kill them right?

This would probably be a lot harder than you make it seem. Keep in mind, Elantrians can manipulate Connection too.

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But then if they just keep breaking it they just build it up over and over again while conventional roshar troops wreck basically any conventional troops sel has, their conventional troops are really good 

That's debatable. Fjord has a pretty strong history of warfare as well.

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And still 100% of radiants have probably at least limited training as a fighter and are basically tanks.

True

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kaladin as only a third ideal radiant didn’t even completely run out of storm light despite having his spine sever like 10 times which is an insane level of healing.

Spinal severing is still just a cut, it likely doesn't require any mor Stormlight than a gash on the leg. A Radiant burned alive would probably use up Stormlight a lot faster

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I also think you underestimate the ingenuity and knowledge of rosharan scholars. If they get acess to any investiture from sel they likely could work out anti light and suppression fabriels very quickly.

I think you overestimate their ingenuity. Their two begg

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Yes it’s true they can make just a pair anything in time but people seem to drastically underestimate fabriels and rosharan technology they can on a large scale potentially suppress the magic abilities of any of their enemies while leaving their own untouched. This is an advantage not to be underestimated, I imagine eventually every radiant will go into battle with a suppressor for their enemy and once this happens it’s gonna become very hard to beat roshar.

Only the Sibling has done it on large scales and they can't exactly move them. And it took 7000 years of conflict with Surgebinding for the Fused to create a way to suppress it. Not exactly a vote of confidence.

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1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Considering the Ire exists, I think it's pretty safe to say they have a good understanding of Investiture as well

Or a ward that disrupts all Lightweaving in an area. 

This would probably be a lot harder than you make it seem. Keep in mind, Elantrians can manipulate Connection too.

That's debatable. Fjord has a pretty strong history of warfare as well.

True

Spinal severing is still just a cut, it likely doesn't require any mor Stormlight than a gash on the leg. A Radiant burned alive would probably use up Stormlight a lot faster

I think you overestimate their ingenuity. Their two begg

Only the Sibling has done it on large scales and they can't exactly move them. And it took 7000 years of conflict with Surgebinding for the Fused to create a way to suppress it. Not exactly a vote of confidence.

Bondsmiths are incredibly strong and losing their limits as is all surgebinding which means that radiants are getting stronger.

nothing on any planet we have seen compared to thousands of years of warfare that roshar has had. 
 

a single rosharan scholar figured out how to make anti light and weaponise it rosharan scholars and fabriels  are a force to be reckoned with.

They have been constantly advancing the current fabriels are far more advanced then anything produced before and now with understanding of how the sibling works mass production should not be super hard.

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Just now, Valigus said:

I think if we can assume that they figure out how to mad produce shardplate equivalent then the Lightweavers can figure out lasers.

Those aren't even close to the same. Elantrians already likely have all the tools and knowledge to do it, Roshar doesn't. To make Aon Shardplate, they would just have to figure out the right Aon combination, Roshar still has a number of scientific advances to go

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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Those aren't even close to the same. Elantrians already likely have all the tools and knowledge to do it, Roshar doesn't. To make Aon Shardplate, they would just have to figure out the right Aon combination, Roshar still has a number of scientific advances to go

There aren’t more advances they only have to figure out that light is energy and can burn, whcih really isn’t a big leap from stormlight csn power stuff and plants grow cause the sun.

also nuclear bombs likely wouldn’t work against roshar it would be suepr easy to just soulcast them in to a non fissable material, it’s also possible for soulcaster and dustbringers to maybe just induce fission

Edited by Valigus
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1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Those aren't even close to the same. Elantrians already likely have all the tools and knowledge to do it, Roshar doesn't. To make Aon Shardplate, they would just have to figure out the right Aon combination, Roshar still has a number of scientific advances to go

It is just a reapplication of Illumination. It just a shorter wavelength of light

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1 minute ago, Valigus said:

These all being things they would have to have figured out though to even match the rosharans.

Yes but Elantris was centuries before TFE and Frustration brought up the Illumination laser so I'm making assumptions too

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Doable doesn't mean they know how, which they might. But we will assume they are still locked to Elantrian, which severally limits their effectiveness.

I could say the same for Illumination laser, since both the Ire and the 17th Shards seems to have figured out how to have Elantrians work offword so I think it's safe to assume by the time that hypothetical war happen they'll know how to use it at least from everywhere in Sel. It's possible that having a united Sel is enough for that to happen by the way

Also it's insanely unfair to assume the Radiant can move offworld if the Elantrians cannot, the former is harder than the latter

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

And when have we seen Lightweavers use lasers?

Then cannot yet but we have WoB that they will.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well on that thinking scadrial probaly has he necluer bombs and missles 

so case closed

But the three other too so that's just mutual destruction

Just now, Valigus said:

There aren’t more advances they only have to figure out that light is energy and can burn, whcih really isn’t a big leap from stormlight csn power stuff and plants grow cause the sun.

also nuclear bombs likely wouldn’t work against roshar it would

be suepr easy to just soulcast them in to a non fissable material, it’s also possible for soulcaster and dustbringers to maybe just induce fission

Not if you have the bombs explode if it detect someone closer than 10 meters

 

Also, I've seen no one mention it so I assume we're ignoring insanities such as Chana or Ash wielding Change or Ishar wielding the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike?

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2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also, I've seen no one mention it so I assume we're ignoring insanities such as Chana or Ash wielding Change or Ishar wielding the Dawnshard known to bind mortal and voidish creature alike?

If I’m right about bondsmiths being attempted replications of this dawnshard then having it doesn’t change much except that it would increase the speed bondsmith a can do things like sever elentrian connection.

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Just now, StanLemon said:

Actually no, there is more to lasers than that. Especially if they are intended to rapidly burn or cut things

Such as? I don’t know a lot about lasers but I know they need a lense which should be bypassed by Lightweavers and usually run off a gas like a co2 laser which would also be met by a Lightweaver. Because of intent I think it’s fairly likely that the intent to create a laser would subconsciously allow for the material requirements to be met.

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3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Actually no, there is more to lasers than that. Especially if they are intended to rapidly burn or cut things

By the way, some of what's needed to make efficient Lasers is closer to Renarin's Void of Illumination than Shallan's Surge of Illumination.

Just now, Valigus said:

I know they need a lense

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous line

1 minute ago, Valigus said:

and usually run off a gas like a co2 laser which would also be met by a Lightweaver.

Pretty sure CO2 laser are pretty bad if what you want is power. And Soulcasters don't allow to create Rubies and Sapphires so you'd have to use dye based Lasers

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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

By the way, some of what's needed to make efficient Lasers is closer to Renarin's Void of Illumination than Shallan's Surge of Illumination.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous line

Pretty sure CO2 laser are pretty bad if what you want is power. And Soulcasters don't allow to create Rubies and Sapphires so you'd have to use dye based Lasers

But wouldn’t the need for a lense by satisfied by light weaving they can just use their powers to simulate a lense, or maybe a sphere or soulcast one.

I think all this would be possible considering other things Lightweavers have been  seen to do.

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4 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Such as? I don’t know a lot about lasers but I know they need a lense which should be bypassed by Lightweavers and usually run off a gas like a co2 laser which would also be met by a Lightweaver. Because of intent I think it’s fairly likely that the intent to create a laser would subconsciously allow for the material requirements to be met.

Not saying it's not possible, they just don't understand the physics of light enough. While they are close considering the discoveries with Rhythms of War, they don't really even know wavelengths of visible light, let alone high energy wavelengths

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Just now, Valigus said:

But wouldn’t the need for a lense by satisfied by light weaving they can just use their powers to simulate a lense

They didn't show any hint of being able to do that. Renarin on the other hand did with his ball of light

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a lense, or maybe a sphere or soulcast one.

At this point you're just soulcasting a Laser into existence, which is something they can do but is obviously not what Brandon wast talking about

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1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Not saying it's not possible, they just don't understand the physics of light enough. While they are close considering the discoveries with Rhythms of War, they don't really even know wavelengths of visible light, let alone high energy wavelengths

They understand light refraction, so how much of a step is it really they already understand color is different wavelengths.

I think it makes sense that Lightweavers magic acts as the lense.

Edited by Valigus
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11 minutes ago, Valigus said:

They understand light refraction, so how much of a step is it really they already understand color is different wavelengths.

I think it makes sense that Lightweavers magic acts as the lense.

We knew about light refraction for millenia here on Earth before we figured out wavelengths

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1 hour ago, Valigus said:

They understand light refraction, so how much of a step is it really they already understand color is different wavelengths.

I think it makes sense that Lightweavers magic acts as the lense.

It's literally impossible to invent laser before the quanta theory, which in our world was invented literally the same year as special relatively (and it was Einstein who found it, that guy was a genius)

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Just now, mathiau said:

It's literally impossible to invent laser before the quanta theory, which in our world was invented literally the same year as special relatively (and it was Einstein who found it, that guy was a genius)

I wouldn't say it is impossible, magic has a way of bypassing som things. But I do think that they would need to have a decent working understanding of how light works to have the proper intent to do it

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24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's literally impossible to invent laser before the quanta theory, which in our world was invented literally the same year as special relatively (and it was Einstein who found it, that guy was a genius)

But they also spend a large portion of their scientific community on investigating light granted it’s not normal light but a lot of understanding should convert.

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