Roshar vs. Sel

[Frustration]

So, we've all seen Radiant vs Mistborn and that makes since considering that they are the two most popular, but I'd like to see some other types of interactions so here's the first in the series.

Let's start with a few basic assumptions.

1. Both Worlds are completly united
2. Both sides are bloodlusted, i.e. no peace no negotiations, but this does not exclude long term planning
3. Shards do not intervine, not that Sel's can at this point, but I thought I'd mention it.

I think the conflict starts obviously enough, Radiant and Fabrial shock troops annialate everything in their path but are sloowed to a standstill when they encounter other magic, in places like Arelon and Fjordell, Dakor monks are willing to sacrafice enough of themselfes to create warriors capable of fighting Radiants  and cause a standstill, Elantrins are capable of weilding enough power at a time to at least cause problems, depending on how far they have advanced, but given the connection orb in SH I think they can hanndle themselves, however the Rose Empire and Mai pon get completly steamrolled.

After this a breif stalemate occures and an arms race ensuses with both side trying to overcome the other, if Arelon can build a larger Elantris effectivly turning all of Arelon into a giant aon Rao they might obtain enough power to drive off the invaders.

but what do you think?

[Honorless]

I'm imagining some really hilarious scenarios because of this line "both sides are bloodlusted", angry chickens and cremlings, lol

So, are angry Rosharan fauna joining in on the action?

Chasmfiends? Spren? What about the Stormfather? The Nightwatcher? 

So are the Selish the defenders and Rosharans the attackers? Where is this happening? How are Rosharans moving Light from Roshar to Sel? How are the Selish accessing the Dor on Roshar? 

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I'm imagining some really hilarious scenarios because of this line "both sides are bloodlusted", angry chickens and cremlings, lol

So, are angry Rosharan fauna joining in on the action?

If scentient

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Chasmfiends? Spren? What about the Stormfather? The Nightwatcher? 

yes

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

So are the Selish the defenders and Rosharans the attackers? Where is this happening? How are Rosharans moving Light from Roshar to Sel? How are the Selish accessing the Dor on Roshar? 

Moving light can be done either through Bondsmith or Perfect gems,

I only have Selish as defenders because I don't see them getting their power off world in sufficient quantities to be of a huge threat but maybe you do, I'd love to hear it.

[Aspiring Writer]

How would Sel look like? What technology would they even have? Can't even imagine how their abilities would affect that.

 

[Saldean warlord]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

How would Sel look like? What technology would they even have? Can't even imagine how their abilities would affect that.

 

They must have advanced a lot since when we first see them in Elantris, there is no way of knowing.

[Honorless]

Elantrians are so much more powerful than Radiants and so firmly entrenched in their city of Elantris that I cannot imagine them being overcome.

The only other Selish magics we've seen with combat applications are Dakhor monks, ChayShan and Bloodsealing. While they can hold out, Radiants have greater edge there. It's possible to weaponize Forgery too but it might serve better at infiltration and sabotage.

There's so many more Selish magics to consider but we haven't seen them so... 

[ScadrianTank]

The greatest strength of Sel in the military sense is that you can't really invade it through the Cognitive realm because of the Dor. While we haven't seen much of Selish subastral, leading an army through a chaotic plasma storm seems unfeasibly difficult. So an army of Regal Singers riding Chasmfiends and Larkin while singing to the Rhythm of Destruction is unfortunately not an option. Khriss also wrote in the Ars Arcanum that the land on Sel became Invested and is growing self-aware, which may or may not affect how difficult it would be to soulcast on Sel.

In terms of actual fighting, we know of two Invested arts that can certainly mess with Radiant powers, those being AonDor, and the bone magic thing. There is also the magical battle dance, which might work, but we haven't seen enough of it to say. Two factors make it difficult to speculate about Elantrian fighting abilities.

The first one is that we don't really know how they fought before the Reod and the second is how advanced their fabrials are at the moment. The first is important because an Elantrian who has to draw all of his Aons from scratch to fight is a dead Elantrian. Maybe they did something similar to Alchemists from Fullmetal Alchemist and drew some Aons on their clothes, for self-defense if nothing else. The second one is important because the Ire had working warning fabrials three hundred years before the events of TWoK, and by now, they might be living in a full magi-tech society, selling AonDor rifles to anyone who'll pay. Because in the best-case scenario based on these criteria is that, following the initial invasion, Elantrians wouldn't even need to wave their hands around, just push a few buttons on their Soul cannons while sipping Pina Coladas.

[basement_boi]

 

13 hours ago, Honorless said:

Elantrians are so much more powerful than Radiants and so firmly entrenched in their city of Elantris that I cannot imagine them being overcome.

The only other Selish magics we've seen with combat applications are Dakhor monks, ChayShan and Bloodsealing. While they can hold out, Radiants have greater edge there. It's possible to weaponize Forgery too but it might serve better at infiltration and sabotage.

There's so many more Selish magics to consider but we haven't seen them so... 

Invested people from Sel have really easy access to the Investiture. Elantrians can teleport virtually anywhere. The Dakhor monks could probably block Shardblades. ChayShan users could probably break Shardplate. In terms of this, Sel would dominate.

HOWEVER, Roshar has the Fused. A fully replenishing, battle hungry, experienced army. Assuming the Stormfather's Bondsmith is there, they have a portable perpendicularity. They also have suppressor fabrials, literal airships, and knowledge of Anti-Investiture. If they could gain access to any Anti-Investiture, the entire battle would be swung to their side almost instantaneously. 

And don't forget: if Ishar is around, Sel is in BIG trouble.

[StanLemon]

I agree that the longer the war goes on the more it favors Sel. But Roshar would be able to do a lot of damage early on.

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

HOWEVER, Roshar has the Fused. A fully replenishing, battle hungry, experienced army.

A very good point.

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

Assuming the Stormfather's Bondsmith is there, they have a portable perpendicularity. 

Might not be that helpful, at least for transportation purposes as Sel's Cognitive is so dangerous.

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

They also have suppressor fabrials,

That we don't know if current designs would work on Selish magic

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

literal airships,

While technically true, the designs they have are not really useful in war

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

and knowledge of Anti-Investiture. If they could gain access to any Anti-Investiture, the entire battle would be swung to their side almost instantaneously. 

Would they be able to make Anti-Investiture for Sel? I'd imagine making it for the Dor would be more difficult due to the Dor's unusual nature.

[Honorless]

@Frustration, how do you think a Roshar vs Nalthis scenario would go?

Radiants have the advantage over Awakeners, I think. Again, over a protracted war, Rosharan Invested Arts allow for better troop replacement (wow, I feel scummy for saying that), Breaths are in limited supplies and I don't think Awakeners can kill spren (well, unless the Five Scholars or some other Awakening scholar manages to create a Type 4 entity). Heck, they're gonna have a hard time killing Radiants. Lifeless shock troops could be useful unless they meet an Elsecaller or Lightweaver who'll find it very easy to Soulcast them. Same goes for Kalad's Phantoms. Returned have a lot of Investiture but they're one-trick ponies and Nalthians don't know the limits of what they can do with Divine Breath. Nightblood could, of course, single-handedly skew the outcome of the war depending on which side he's on: Nalthis or Roshar but man, using Nightblood is gonna be far costlier for the Nalthians.

[Bigmikey357]

The problem I'm seeing is that in a conflict,  both Roshar and Scadrial are broken,  albeit in different ways. For brute force it doesn't get much better than a Radiant riding a chasmfiend holding a sword that severs souls. Scadrial's magics play very well with technology and they can be fueled anywhere,  at least for most metals. Plus, let's face it, Harmony cheats. So in my mind,  unless the Aethers become something special or Taldain gets its blockade lifted either system's forces would likely have me running in different directions near immediately. My next move is to gather allies. Sel by itself eventually loses. Sel plus Nalthis has a better shot.  If Threnody can actually weaponize Shades then even better.  

I personally still can't see Sel winning against the monsters unless they figure out how to divorce magic with location.  Otherwise a few stonewards with some time on their hands or a couple airships with ettmetal bombs can alter a landscape and turn everyone back to the Reod.

[Nightslug]

If there were radiants with sufficient understanding of the source of Aon Dor, then they could simply destroy the Aon Rao forming Elantris and deprive the Elantrians of their powers..

In fact, if there are similar geographical forms involved with the other Sellish magics then the surgebinders could focus on creating chasms and the like to ruin the land- thereby breaking the Sellish magics!!  

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Nightslug said:

If there were radiants with sufficient understanding of the source of Aon Dor, then they could simply destroy the Aon Rao forming Elantris and deprive the Elantrians of their powers..

True but how would they know? That is the problem, isn't it. Even if Lightweavers infiltrate Elantris, the Elantrians aren't just gonna be discussing it with anyone else

1 hour ago, Nightslug said:

In fact, if there are similar geographical forms involved with the other Sellish magics then the surgebinders could focus on creating chasms and the like to ruin the land- thereby breaking the Sellish magics!!  

Hmm... I don't think Radiants have access to the level of power required to be able to do that. The Shattered Plains on Roshar were supposedly the work of the Heralds with their Honorblades.

 

Actually... how would spren... I mean on Sel, on the Cognitive Realm, there's the Dor raging across it, which is an Investiture plasma storm. Spren are always partially in the Cognitive Realm (well... unless Tezim has something to say about it at any rate), wouldn't they... vaporize? Melt? What would even happen to them if they're brought there? Would they be fine? Seons and Skaze are fine, they're partially in the Cognitive Realm too (look up Seon+Shardblade on the Arcanum) but then again, they were created during the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion, and the creation of the Dor. And they're made from that same Investiture, Rosharan spren are not. So Rosharan spren would get Corrupted and horrifically mutate maybe? 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

True but how would they know? That is the problem, isn't it. Even if Lightweavers infiltrate Elantris, the Elantrians aren't just gonna be discussing it with anyone else

I asked  myself this question but I don't think they have to know, if your enemy is centred in a city what better offencive stratagy than launching a full scale invasion, and whith a wall in the way? Simply move it, and then all their power is gone.

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Actually... how would spren... I mean on Sel, on the Cognitive Realm, there's the Dor raging across it, which is an Investiture plasma storm. Spren are always partially in the Cognitive Realm (well... unless Tezim has something to say about it at any rate), wouldn't they... vaporize? Melt? What would even happen to them if they're brought there? Would they be fine? Seons and Skaze are fine, they're partially in the Cognitive Realm too (look up Seon+Shardblade on the Arcanum) but then again, they were created during the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion, and the creation of the Dor. And they're made from that same Investiture, Rosharan spren are not. So Rosharan spren would get Corrupted and horrifically mutate maybe? 

....

I don't know, could very well be the case.

[Valigus]

I feel like the fact that they have chasm fiends and insane magic as well as the most experienced soldiers, generals and magic users in the cosmere kinda rips the scale. they are used to fighting the supernatural, they also have a better working knowledge of investiture then any other planet I think as a result of all the different magic present.

also all the radiant orders are op

Lightweavers have no way to be countered by them really, Lightweavers are like kandra who are also tanks. 

Windrunners and sky breakers are basically fighter jets

Elsecallers, stonewards and willshapers basically let you control the terrain however you want, which is such a huge advantage and cannot be underestimated.

imagine like a bunch of stonewards show up and boom we made a fort out of rock in like 10 seconds and now the fort is made of iron like stone

or willshapers and elsecallers doing the same 

edgedancers and truthwatchers healing is op

from what we have heard or had hinted at dustbringers are like heavy artillery 

bondsmiths are well bondsmiths

and every single one of these orders has acess to a suepr sharp sword that cuts through almsot everything kills pretty much everything instantly and armor that makes them into a smaller much more mobile tank. On top of the fact that they can heal from anything short of like complete disintegration or having their head removed and even those are in doubt considering the feats of healing we have seen in Rythm of war like kaladin having his spine severed over and over and over again bad in oathbringer shallan getting a crossbow bolt to the brain and Renarin being completely squished.

[Bejarden]

How would sel attack the other planets? 
Once a Elantrian left he would no longer have powers

Snd if they try dioing the Thing the Ire did it probaly is possible to destroy

So Roshar and scadrial would both just do a siege with strike teams

 

 

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Valigus said:

I feel like the fact that they have chasm fiends and insane magic as well as the most experienced soldiers, generals and magic users in the cosmere kinda rips the scale. they are used to fighting the supernatural, they also have a better working knowledge of investiture then any other planet I think as a result of all the different magic present.

Sel is the most Cosmere aware world

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also all the radiant orders are op

True bit this favors a surprise attack from Roshar. If Sel knows they are coming then they can set up counter strategies. 

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Lightweavers have no way to be countered by them really, Lightweavers are like kandra who are also tanks. 

Sel could dismiss all Lightweaving. Dakhor can for sure as we've seen it and I'm positive that AonDor can as well

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Windrunners and sky breakers are basically fighter jets

Yeah, they will probably be Roshar's biggest tactical advantage

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Elsecallers, stonewards and willshapers basically let you control the terrain however you want, which is such a huge advantage and cannot be underestimated.

AonDor can do just about anything Surgebinding can

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imagine like a bunch of stonewards show up and boom we made a fort out of rock in like 10 seconds and now the fort is made of iron like stone

 

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or willshapers and elsecallers doing the same 

An Elantrian could destroy that fort in as much time as it took to set it up

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edgedancers and truthwatchers healing is op

True

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from what we have heard or had hinted at dustbringers are like heavy artillery 

I wish we could see more of Dustbrinngers. Or at least some use of the Division Surge 

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bondsmiths are well bondsmiths

Whereas Windrunners and Skybreakers are probably Roshar's best tactical advantage, Bondsmiths are their best strategic advantage 

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and every single one of these orders has acess to a suepr sharp sword that cuts through almsot everything kills pretty much everything instantly and armor that makes them into a smaller much more mobile tank.

AonDor could make Shardblades of their own

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On top of the fact that they can heal from anything short of like complete disintegration or having their head removed and even those are in doubt considering the feats of healing we have seen in Rythm of war like kaladin having his spine severed over and over and over again bad in oathbringer shallan getting a crossbow bolt to the brain and Renarin being completely squished.

Those healings in those books used up almost all the Stormlight those two had. While advantageous for survival it is important to remember healing is Stormlight intensive. 

All in all, I could easily see Roshar winning if they push really hard at the beginning of the conflict and if Sel is mostly unaware. But the more time Sel has, the more things shift towards them. Sel has the power and versatility to emulate and counter just about anything Roshar has to offer. There is a reason Brandon has called Elantrians the Batman of the Cosmere. 

[mathiau]

54 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How would sel attack the other planets? 
Once a Elantrian left he would no longer have powers

Snd if they try dioing the Thing the Ire did it probaly is possible to destroy

So Roshar and scadrial would both just do a siege with strike teams

There are ways to use Sel's magics offworld, and note that "using a F-Durlamin medallion" would not only work, but be considered on the harder end of ways to do it.

 

Also, Aon Sheo

Edited February 26, 2021 by mathiau

[StanLemon]

Also, to put into perspective just how stupidly powerful AonDor potentially can be. An Elantrian was able to create a ward powerful enough to prevent Shards from seeing past.

While certainly Surgebinding is the more powerful combat ability, especially for impromptu combat and an obscenely powerful tactical ability. AonDor and potentially Dakhor are stupidly advantageous strategically. 

[Valigus]

16 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Sel is the most Cosmere aware world

True bit this favors a surprise attack from Roshar. If Sel knows they are coming then they can set up counter strategies. 

Sel could dismiss all Lightweaving. Dakhor can for sure as we've seen it and I'm positive that AonDor can as well

Yeah, they will probably be Roshar's biggest tactical advantage

AonDor can do just about anything Surgebinding can

 

An Elantrian could destroy that fort in as much time as it took to set it up

True

I wish we could see more of Dustbrinngers. Or at least some use of the Division Surge 

Whereas Windrunners and Skybreakers are probably Roshar's best tactical advantage, Bondsmiths are their best strategic advantage 

AonDor could make Shardblades of their own

Those healings in those books used up almost all the Stormlight those two had. While advantageous for survival it is important to remember healing is Stormlight intensive. 

All in all, I could easily see Roshar winning if they push really hard at the beginning of the conflict and if Sel is mostly unaware. But the more time Sel has, the more things shift towards them. Sel has the power and versatility to emulate and counter just about anything Roshar has to offer. There is a reason Brandon has called Elantrians the Batman of the Cosmere. 

But do they have as much knowledge about the actual nature of investiture because roshar has a lot of that.

they would need to know about the light weaving though. And In that case and this is why they are way better then kandra you still have a tank in the middle of your people one who can soulcast too.

yeah bondsmiths are a huge strategic advantage and I could be wrong here but would it not be possible to sever the connection to the dor for all elentrians which would remove their power and maybe kill them right?

But then if they just keep breaking it they just build it up over and over again while conventional roshar troops wreck basically any conventional troops sel has, their conventional troops are really good 

And still 100% of radiants have probably at least limited training as a fighter and are basically tanks.

kaladin as only a third ideal radiant didn’t even completely run out of storm light despite having his spine sever like 10 times which is an insane level of healing.

I also think you underestimate the ingenuity and knowledge of rosharan scholars. If they get acess to any investiture from sel they likely could work out anti light and suppression fabriels very quickly. Yes it’s true they can make just a pair anything in time but people seem to drastically underestimate fabriels and rosharan technology they can on a large scale potentially suppress the magic abilities of any of their enemies while leaving their own untouched. This is an advantage not to be underestimated, I imagine eventually every radiant will go into battle with a suppressor for their enemy and once this happens it’s gonna become very hard to beat roshar.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Also, to put into perspective just how stupidly powerful AonDor potentially can be. An Elantrian was able to create a ward powerful enough to prevent Shards from seeing past.

Wait, what? When did that happen?

[ScadrianTank]

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Wait, what? When did that happen?

The Ire talked about it in Secret History.

[Valigus]

15 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

The Ire talked about it in Secret History.

Wouldn’t just an aluminum cage do that?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

An Elantrian could destroy that fort in as much time as it took to set it up

We have yet to see an Elantrian come close to destroying stone, let alone metal. Now they could change it into something, but that requires them to get close enough and stand there to draw an Aon. Lightweavers would kill them with laser attacks before they finished.

[Valigus]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We have yet to see an Elantrian come close to destroying stone, let alone metal. Now they could change it into something, but that requires them to get close enough and stand there to draw an Aon. Lightweavers would kill them with laser attacks before they finished.

Yeah or they would be killed by dustbringers or have the air soulcast into oil and burned or windrunners or sky breakers could kill them moving super fast