Ash should be white or reflective, not black [discuss]

[IAmAStik]

Throughout the series of Era 1, the ash is described as black:
"The dry plants, the angry sun, the smoky-black sky." -Kelsier, Chpt. 12, TFE
"the black flakes covered up everything beneath," Chpt. 61 and 63, HoA

I absolutely love Sanderson's world building and the scenes he creates; it makes sense from an emotional point of view that things need to look dark and depressing. But the Lord Ruler should've known that black colored ash would absorb sunlight and heat up the planet more. White/reflective would've been more appropriate, though snow-like-covered landscapes might not bring as dreary a picture to mind. Perhaps gray would've been a good compromise.

[Honorless]

Eh, I never think too deeply about these things when I read fantasy books, it's still strange to do so for Sanderson's books even after 3 years.

Well, he sacrificed physics for ambiance, I guess, *shrugs*

But wouldn't just not getting direct sunlight count for a lot more than reflectivity/absorption of heat?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Honorless

[+Artemos]

I might be misremembering, but I think the ash was specifically mentioned to be black due to Ruin's influence in the volcanos - I can't find where I got that from, though.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Artemos said:

I might be misremembering, but I think the ash was specifically mentioned to be black due to Ruin's influence in the volcanos - I can't find where I got that from, though.

I agree with this; I'm pretty sure it's black because of Ruin.

[Spren of Kindness]

Volcanic ash is often darker than ash from a wood fire, if I remember all those books I read correctly.

[Kingsdaughter613]

I mean, when an actual volcano went off in the 1800s it dropped volcanic ash and caused a very long winter...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_ash

[Jofwu]

HoA Chapter 19 epigraph:

Quote

Yes, the ash was black. No, it should not have been. Most common ash has a dark component, but is just as much gray or white as it is black.

Ash from the ashmounts . . . it was different. Like the mists themselves, the ash covering our land was not truly a natural thing. Perhaps it was the influence of Ruin's power—as black as Preservation was white. Or, perhaps it was simply the nature of the ashmounts, which were designed and created specifically to blast ash and smoke into the sky.

Black ash wouldn't have accomplished the goal of cooling the planet as far as I know. Would have blocked sunlight from reaching the ground, but only because the ash particles are absorbing the energy themselves rather than reflecting it away. Meaning the energy goes into the atmosphere and spreads to the rest of the planet from there.

So yeah, I think we can assume it was Ruin's influence.

[+Vodid_Tandal]

Yikes, for a second I thought the post was about Shalash.

[Frustration]

Just now, Vodid_Lantad said:

Yikes, for a second I thought the post was about Shalash.

same, I was mentally bracing myself for a discussion about race.

[Honorless]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

same, I was mentally bracing myself for a discussion about race.

I know about black people and white people but who are reflective people?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I know about black people and white people but who are reflective people?

Dragons?

I have never heard of someone named Ash in Mistborn either, it was just reflexive.

[+robardin]

Well the ash comes from the volcanic "ashmounts", and IRL, volcanic ash is a pretty dark gray. (That is, it's a rather dark gray; not "pretty" as in "attractive", though to some it might be.) For example, at this paint supply website it's graded one shade lighter than black:

https://www.ppgpaints.com/color/color-families/neutrals/volcanic-ash

And yes, I think the "deeper, harsher" black ash produced by the Ashmounts described at the beginning of HoA is because Ruin is fueling them into overdrive with his power. If I search through the Era 1 text there is mention of Vin brushing off the "blackish gray ash" from her dress at one point, and the mixture of ash falling onto snow covered buildings in Luthadel is described as "gray and white, the snow stained by ash".

Though the ash falling on the crowd at the skaa executions that the Lord Ruler personally comes to witness is described as "black ash". So again, maybe just a touch of extra Ruin, hmm? 

[cometaryorbit]

IRL the primary cooling effect of volcanoes is from very small aerosols, largely formed by chemical reactions in the atmosphere involving sulfurous gases (SO2/SO3) - these gases become sulfate aerosols eventually.

The ash itself is secondary - largely because it tends to fall out of the atmosphere quickly, while the very small particles tend to stay up for months (that's why the 1815 Tambora eruption could cause a very cold summer in 1816).

I think these very fine particles also form more clouds (acting as "cloud condensation nuclei")... which are very bright and reflective.

So pale ash would probably have helped some relative to dark ash, but maybe not very much. The net effect of the volcanoes should still be to cool the planet, regardless of ash color.

[AquaRegia]

I think we might be overthinking.  Brandon is not an atmospheric physicist or a geochemist.  But if it makes anyone feel better, here are some thoughts:

Atmospheric energy budgets are HORRIFICALLY complicated - so much so that we, with all our satellite measurements and supercomputer models, still don't understand everything that's going on in Earth's atmosphere.

Small particles high in the atmosphere can produce cooling no matter what color they are - they absorb visible light, get warm, and radiate infrared straight back out into space.  Black particles might actually be BETTER at doing this, as they would get warmer faster.  @cometaryorbit is right about sulfate aerosols.  But...

Volcanic ash is NOT uniform in color on Earth.  Just like all rocks, it can vary from white to black, and every shade in between, depending on chemical composition.  I have some ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980, and it's a pale grey, almost like chalk dust.

There is a WoB which says the ashmount ash on Scadrial was ferromagnetic in nature, and part of its activity was somehow due to that.  (Again, Brandon isn't a scientist LOL)  At some point, even the most critical reader should probably just say "well, it IS a FANTASY novel."  I've had to get there myself on multiple topics.

[cometaryorbit]

5 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Atmospheric energy budgets are HORRIFICALLY complicated - so much so that we, with all our satellite measurements and supercomputer models, still don't understand everything that's going on in Earth's atmosphere.

This is true - though in some cases the broad patterns are very simple, it's the detailed feedbacks and stuff that are impossibly complex. (Kind of like climate vs weather - predicting weather even 2-3 weeks ahead is essentially impossible, but everybody knows July will be warmer than January in the north temperate zone...)

Quote

Volcanic ash is NOT uniform in color on Earth.  Just like all rocks, it can vary from white to black, and every shade in between, depending on chemical composition.  I have some ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980, and it's a pale grey, almost like chalk dust.

Sure, but @Jofwu above posted the HOA epigraph that Ruin was messing with it... All I was saying is that the ash being dark wouldn't prevent the overall net effect from being cooling rather than warming.

Quote

There is a WoB which says the ashmount ash on Scadrial was ferromagnetic in nature, and part of its activity was somehow due to that. 

I think that was just to make it concentrate over the Final Empire area (where the magnetic pole was) ... but yeah that part possibly doesn't make the most sense, especially since the ash itself isn't that important climate-wise vs. the sulfate aerosols.

Quote

(Again, Brandon isn't a scientist LOL)  At some point, even the most critical reader should probably just say "well, it IS a FANTASY novel."  I've had to get there myself on multiple topics.

Yeah... Given that these are volcanoes engineered by godlike magical power to cool the planet, I think they probably have whatever mix of gases to ash they need to have to get the desired effect...

I am not really sure this would work in RL. It seems to me that the ocean away from the Final Empire area, more exposed to light, should evaporate at a horrendous rate and make the planet go runaway-greenhouse.

OTOH, we only know that it worked for 1024 years - it is quite possible that the system actually wasn't stable (on geological timescales) and in the absence of Ruin/Vin/Sazed intervention it would have turned into a runaway greenhouse in a few tens of thousands or millions of years...