Ulim's mixed investiture

[Ciridae]

Minor Mistborn and Secret history spoilers.

So in short I believe that Ulim is part Ruin and part Odium. Here's why:

 

Ulim's red color means that it is likely he is made up of more than one type of investiture. We know that's not necessarily the norm for voidspren because of Yixli's yellow coloring.

 

We know that investiture assosciated with each of the shards can be found anywhere. We also know that Ruin's investiture has manifested sapience (with some help) and a spren-like form at least one more time in the form of Nightblood.

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10902

 

We also know that Rayse does not like expending his own power and would prefer not to invest much. We see this presumably with the Unmade and indirectly through Sja-Anat. Where he can, Odium corrupts instead of creating wholecloth. So I think it's plausible that Rayse or even Sja-Anat corrupted some lose Ruin-investiture that was available in the rosharan system and gave it sapience.

 

Now, here are some textual hints:

Ulim bears some physical resemblances with Ruin, or at least Ruin's manifestation that we get to see. The following is Ulims description when he finds out that Axindweth has left the planet and their plans have changed.

Quote

"Ulim blurred, carapace-like barbs breaking his skin and jabbing out, then retracting.

[...] the way those spikes broke Ulim's skin–the way he pulsed– made her remain quiet."

 

Secret History Spoilers:

Spoiler

This closely matches Ruin's description when Kelsier sees him similarly agitated:

"[...] Kelsier could see spines beneath the surface of his skin. Pricking spider legs, thousands of them, pushing against the skin and causing it to pucker outward in erratic motions."

 

I found this parallel pretty striking.

Then, a few pages later, when Ulim is discovered by Nale, he says:

Quote

"You have no idea how royally, colossally incredibly ruined we are."

Which is an interesting choice of words.

 

He's also a pretty destructive little fella. He's cavalier with the lives of others. Even with Venli's, who Ulim is pretty dependant on for a large part of their relationship. And when Navani is captured his very first response is to ask if she should be killed.

 

Ulim was also working closely with Axindweth. I think it's safe to assume based on her name and her rings that she is probably Terris and likely a Feruchemist or ferring. Now, I dont think she was working with him because he was part Ruin, I'm sure she had her own reasons for starting a Return. We don't really know much about her, but I thought I'd point out the Scadrian connection anyway.

 

Finally, and I'm sure this is just a coincidence, but from what I've been able to tell the only translation of the world Ulim is "reduce" from albanian, so there you go

Edited January 23, 2021 by Ciridae

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:32 PM, Ciridae said:

Minor Mistborn and Secret history spoilers.

So in short I believe that Ulim is part Ruin and part Odium. Here's why:

 

Ulim's red color means that it is likely he is made up of more than one type of investiture. We know that's not necessarily the norm for voidspren because of Yixli's yellow coloring.

 

We know that investiture assosciated with each of the shards can be found anywhere. We also know that Ruin's investiture has manifested sapience (with some help) and a spren-like form at least one more time in the form of Nightblood.

 

We also know that Rayse does not like expending his own power and would prefer not to invest much. We see this presumably with the Unmade and indirectly through Sja-Anat. Where he can, Odium corrupts instead of creating wholecloth. So I think it's plausible that Rayse or even Sja-Anat corrupted some lose Ruin-investiture that was available in the rosharan system and gave it sapience.

 

Now, here are some textual hints:

Ulim bears some physical resemblances with Ruin, or at least Ruin's manifestation that we get to see. The following is Ulims description when he finds out that Axindweth has left the planet and their plans have changed.

 

Secret History Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

This closely matches Ruin's description when Kelsier sees him similarly agitated:

"[...] Kelsier could see spines beneath the surface of his skin. Pricking spider legs, thousands of them, pushing against the skin and causing it to pucker outward in erratic motions."

 

I found this parallel pretty striking.

Then, a few pages later, when Ulim is discovered by Nale, he says:

Which is an interesting choice of words.

 

He's also a pretty destructive little fella. He's cavalier with the lives of others. Even with Venli's, who Ulim is pretty dependant on for a large part of their relationship. And when Navani is captured his very first response is to ask if she should be killed.

 

Ulim was also working closely with Axindweth. I think it's safe to assume based on her name and her rings that she is probably Terris and likely a Feruchemist or ferring. Now, I dont think she was working with him because he was part Ruin, I'm sure she had her own reasons for starting a Return. We don't really know much about her, but I thought I'd point out the Scadrian connection anyway.

 

Finally, and I'm sure this is just a coincidence, but from what I've been able to tell the only translation of the world Ulim is "reduce" from albanian, so there you go

With regard to the last point Ulim is a lot like the Hebrew Olim, ‘meaning those who go up’.

[Ciridae]

On 24/01/2021 at 5:41 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

With regard to the last point Ulim is a lot like the Hebrew Olim, ‘meaning those who go up’.

That's pretty cool, it would fit with the theme of revival in SA. I still think voidspren are like the fused only that they were human and then spren-ified, but that's a different theory. 

It would be really cool if the name had some sort of meaning or influence like the unmade names do. Do we know if Yixli is similar to or influenced by anything? 

[LordFlea]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:32 PM, Ciridae said:

Minor Mistborn and Secret history spoilers.

So in short I believe that Ulim is part Ruin and part Odium. Here's why:

 

Ulim's red color means that it is likely he is made up of more than one type of investiture. We know that's not necessarily the norm for voidspren because of Yixli's yellow coloring.

 

We know that investiture assosciated with each of the shards can be found anywhere. We also know that Ruin's investiture has manifested sapience (with some help) and a spren-like form at least one more time in the form of Nightblood.

 

We also know that Rayse does not like expending his own power and would prefer not to invest much. We see this presumably with the Unmade and indirectly through Sja-Anat. Where he can, Odium corrupts instead of creating wholecloth. So I think it's plausible that Rayse or even Sja-Anat corrupted some lose Ruin-investiture that was available in the rosharan system and gave it sapience.

 

Now, here are some textual hints:

Ulim bears some physical resemblances with Ruin, or at least Ruin's manifestation that we get to see. The following is Ulims description when he finds out that Axindweth has left the planet and their plans have changed.

 

Secret History Spoilers:

  Hide contents

This closely matches Ruin's description when Kelsier sees him similarly agitated:

"[...] Kelsier could see spines beneath the surface of his skin. Pricking spider legs, thousands of them, pushing against the skin and causing it to pucker outward in erratic motions."

 

I found this parallel pretty striking.

Then, a few pages later, when Ulim is discovered by Nale, he says:

Which is an interesting choice of words.

 

He's also a pretty destructive little fella. He's cavalier with the lives of others. Even with Venli's, who Ulim is pretty dependant on for a large part of their relationship. And when Navani is captured his very first response is to ask if she should be killed.

 

Ulim was also working closely with Axindweth. I think it's safe to assume based on her name and her rings that she is probably Terris and likely a Feruchemist or ferring. Now, I dont think she was working with him because he was part Ruin, I'm sure she had her own reasons for starting a Return. We don't really know much about her, but I thought I'd point out the Scadrian connection anyway.

 

Finally, and I'm sure this is just a coincidence, but from what I've been able to tell the only translation of the world Ulim is "reduce" from albanian, so there you go

Big ups, this looks like a solid theory to me and is absolutely fascinating. I wonder if he would be willing to bond Kelsier? (isn't that a terrifying thought)

[Halyo_Alex]

20 hours ago, LordFlea said:

Big ups, this looks like a solid theory to me and is absolutely fascinating. I wonder if he would be willing to bond Kelsier? (isn't that a terrifying thought)

Plot twist: this is why Kelsier wants off-world.

[Ciridae]

On 26/01/2021 at 11:39 PM, LordFlea said:

Big ups, this looks like a solid theory to me and is absolutely fascinating. I wonder if he would be willing to bond Kelsier? (isn't that a terrifying thought)

Thanks! That would be interesting, I wonder how Kelsier being a Cognitive Shadow would play into that. But Nale bonded a spren so it could probably work.

I wonder in general why we haven't seen any of the voidspren bond with anybody, I'm really curious about them. I think it would be really interesting to see what powers they would grant. I doubt it would just be regular surgebinding.

Iirc Sja-Anat said that her bond to Odium gave her sapience and I assume thats why Voidspren can be sapient in the physical realm without bonding anybody. Could be interesting if that changes with TOdium.

[Halyo_Alex]

5 hours ago, Ciridae said:

wonder in general why we haven't seen any of the voidspren bond with anybody

Iirc Odium needed to use the Thrill on Sadeas' army to get them to bond with voidspren since it requires a particular mindset.

[Serack]

First, There are some awesome insights here, thank you so much for putting them together and sharing them.  I'm particularly fascinated by the parallel between the spider leg like things and carapace leg things between Ruin's manifestation and Ulim's when they are PO'd

With the way the Nightblood question was worded "contain" he could be very easily referring to something very differently from what you seem to be supposing here.  Brandon makes frequent references to Nightblood consuming the investiture he is powered off of (either from the wielder or that he cuts through) and thus as he has consumed investiture that is of ruin, he "contains" it now, but not necessarily as part of his genesis.  OTOH, since his command word had "destroy" in it, perhaps you are completely right.  I'm just trying to point out that the WoB you cited could mean something else entirely.  

Here is an example WoB

Quote

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

I don't get why you say this:

On 1/28/2021 at 8:36 AM, Ciridae said:

I wonder in general why we haven't seen any of the voidspren bond with anybody, I'm really curious about them. I think it would be really interesting to see what powers they would grant. I doubt it would just be regular surgebinding.

Didn't we see Ulim himself bond Venli multiple times by inhabiting her gem heart?  And aren't pretty much all regal "forms of power" derived from bonding with a Voidspren?  That's what the wiki says at least.  

Or if by "anybody" you mean humans, well @Halyo_Alex thought of something I wouldn't have.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

46 minutes ago, Serack said:

Didn't we see Ulim himself bond Venli multiple times by inhabiting her gem heart?  And aren't pretty much all regal "forms of power" derived from bonding with a Voidspren?  That's what the wiki says at least.  

An important clarification: we have seen lesser Voidspren bond (and then whatever is up with Ulim in the flashbacks), to make Regals. We have not, however, seen a bond with sapient Voidspren, I don't think. (Once again, excluding whatever's up with Ulim in the flashbacks. I'm still not really sure what the nature of that bond is.)

Edited January 29, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope
bit of clarification

[Ciridae]

@Serack Yeah, both the stormspren and whatever type of voidspren bonded with the Sadeas troops (at least I think) were not sapient. 

I don't think that Ulim, even when he was living in Venli's gemheart, was ever really bonded to her the way Timbre is. Then again he does let her hear Odium's rhythms so I might be wrong about that. Just based on the fact that voidspren dont need to bond with a physical entity to be sapient in the physical realm makes me think that he wasn't truly bonded with Venli, because why would Ulim want to bond with someone if he didnt have to? 

But that's a very good point about Nightblood, I agree that's a perfectly valid reading of that WoB. It's totally possible that in their travels Nightblood could have eaten a lose pocket of Ruin. There's tonnes we don't know about Nightblood. I do still think it's more likely that Ruin's investiture was involved in their creation just because of Brandon's phrasing about not trying to wiggle out of the question

I'll add though, that even if Nightblood wasn't made from lose Ruin investiture, Ulim could still very well be, because lose, assosciated investiture does exist, and I think its probably a lot easier for an entity like Odium or Sja-Anat to use that lose investiture than it would be for Vasher and Shashara.

Cut from that very, very long, but very interesting WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9385

 

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 1/26/2021 at 4:39 PM, LordFlea said:

Big ups, this looks like a solid theory to me and is absolutely fascinating. I wonder if he would be willing to bond Kelsier? (isn't that a terrifying thought)

OH rust THIS IS HOW KELSIER IS GOING TO LEAVE Scadrial!!!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

31 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

OH rust THIS IS HOW KELSIER IS GOING TO LEAVE Scadrial!!!

Considering all a Radiant bond seems to do in that regard is tie people down to the planet more, I don't see that helping in any way, lol. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering all a Radiant bond seems to do in that regard is tie people down to the planet more, I don't see that helping in any way, lol. 

Because it would give Kelsier a solid Connection to Roshar that would allow him to travel there.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Because it would give Kelsier a solid Connection to Roshar that would allow him to travel there.

He'd have to get there in the first place to bond, no? And besides, Hoid's probably got Connections to plenty of places, but as of now, he's trapped on the planet due to Design, so I doubt it'd work that way. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He'd have to get there in the first place to bond, no? And besides, Hoid's probably got Connections to plenty of places, but as of now, he's trapped on the planet due to Design, so I doubt it'd work that way. 

Brandon didn't really say he was trapped on Roshar, he said "yes, that's a problem".  If Hoid really was trapped on Roshar for good, I don't think he would have told us that.  Also we saw Radiants in space with living Shardplate and Shardguns, so it doesn't look like spren are going to lock people on Roshar, at least not for very long.  I don't expect to see Kelsier on Roshar for a while, so there is plenty of time for them to figure out inter-planetary travel.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Brandon didn't really say he was trapped on Roshar, he said "yes, that's a problem".  If Hoid really was trapped on Roshar for good, I don't think he would have told us that.  Also we saw Radiants in space with living Shardplate and Shardguns, so it doesn't look like spren are going to lock people on Roshar, at least not for very long.  I don't expect to see Kelsier on Roshar for a while, so there is plenty of time for them to figure out inter-planetary travel.  

Presumably, "something will happen that is relevant" means he'll figure out a way around it (or the bond breaks, which would be really unfortunate).

And if a way around the region lock is found, why not just use that instead of bonding a Voidspren?

[Kyn]

@Ba-Ado-Fisherman…you might want to spoiler-tag speculative stuff from Shardcasts or wherever.

[Proletariat]

13 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Brandon didn't really say he was trapped on Roshar, he said "yes, that's a problem".  If Hoid really was trapped on Roshar for good, I don't think he would have told us that.  Also we saw Radiants in space with living Shardplate and Shardguns, so it doesn't look like spren are going to lock people on Roshar, at least not for very long.  I don't expect to see Kelsier on Roshar for a while, so there is plenty of time for them to figure out inter-planetary travel.  

I don't think the space age era having figured out how to do something that Hoid does not yet know how to do is evidence of soon given it's probably hundreds of years in the future. Scadrial doesn't even seem to have toasters yet ... FTL still might be a way off.

I do think more people will start figuring it out by end of the second Stormlight sequence though. The Ghostbloods haven't been introduced elsewhere so their storyline about exporting investiture has to be resolved in a Stormlight book, and Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods are kind of being set up to be more of a villain once there's a modicum of peace between the Dalinar and Odium factions.

[CatgirlTheCrazy]

We see Hoid on Scadrial multiple times during Mistborn Era 2, which takes place not too long after Stormlight 5, so we know Hoid will find a way around the region locking in the near future. I also don't think he would have agreed to bond Design unless he already had a plan to get around the region locking. I think it's unlikely that his plan is to break the bond when he needs to leave. He's not the sort of person who would hurt a spren like that lightly, and having access to Radiant powers for at most a few years doesn't seem useful enough to justify deadeying a spren.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I don't think the space age era having figured out how to do something that Hoid does not yet know how to do is evidence of soon given it's probably hundreds of years in the future. Scadrial doesn't even seem to have toasters yet ... FTL still might be a way off.

I do think more people will start figuring it out by end of the second Stormlight sequence though. The Ghostbloods haven't been introduced elsewhere so their storyline about exporting investiture has to be resolved in a Stormlight book, and Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods are kind of being set up to be more of a villain once there's a modicum of peace between the Dalinar and Odium factions.

if Hoid is on Scadrial in Mistborn era 2, then he either severed his bond with Design or figured it out right around the time of book 5.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

44 minutes ago, CatgirlTheCrazy said:

He's not the sort of person who would hurt a spren like that lightly, and having access to Radiant powers for at most a few years doesn't seem useful enough to justify deadeying a spren.

Worth noting that depending on how the BAM plot goes, deadeyes might not be a thing after Book 5.

But I agree that it's not likely breaking the bond is his plan.

[CatgirlTheCrazy]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Worth noting that depending on how the BAM plot goes, deadeyes might not be a thing after Book 5.

I'm not convinced Hoid could have known that when he bonded Design, but since we basically otherwise agree, that's a nitpicky point.

Circling back to Ulim-as-part-Ruinspren, one interesting question is why would Ulim have been made that way? Sure, Odium likes corrupting others investiture, but Ruin's investiture is not exactly abundant in the Rosharan system, so I would assume that he would have had to go out of his way to get enough of it to make a voidspren. Did Odium do it because a spren with Connection to an outside Shard would have an easier time circumventing the Oathpact? Except Nale recognized Ulim, so we know he dates back to before Aharietiam. It seems unlikely that Odium would have known back then that he'd one day need a spren like that- I don't think he foresaw that Taln would be able to keep his Fused and voidspren trapped on Braize for 4000 years all by himself. So why?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, CatgirlTheCrazy said:

I'm not convinced Hoid could have known that when he bonded Design, but since we basically otherwise agree, that's a nitpicky point.

Agreed, simply mean that it's potentially a route he could take if his plans turn out to fail or something. But Brandon having him bond Design in the first place seems like an odd choice, if he just ends up breaking the bond off soon after.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, CatgirlTheCrazy said:

Circling back to Ulim-as-part-Ruinspren, one interesting question is why would Ulim have been made that way? Sure, Odium likes corrupting others investiture, but Ruin's investiture is not exactly abundant in the Rosharan system, so I would assume that he would have had to go out of his way to get enough of it to make a voidspren. Did Odium do it because a spren with Connection to an outside Shard would have an easier time circumventing the Oathpact? Except Nale recognized Ulim, so we know he dates back to before Aharietiam. It seems unlikely that Odium would have known back then that he'd one day need a spren like that- I don't think he foresaw that Taln would be able to keep his Fused and voidspren trapped on Braize for 4000 years all by himself. So why?

Nightblood was made on Nalthis but it has Ruin's investiture in it.

[CatgirlTheCrazy]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nightblood was made on Nalthis but it has Ruin's investiture in it.

I'm not saying he couldn't have done it, I'm saying that it seems difficult enough for Odium to do that I don't think he would have done it just for sh*ts and giggles. I'm curious to what his reasons might have been.