Gavilar theory [DISCUSS]

[Use the Falchion]

7 hours ago, mdross81 said:

This (and your argument more generally) is the closest I’ve come to even considering that the child champion theory could be narratively satisfying.

Heh, thanks!

 

7 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I don’t know if you’ve entirely sold me that Todium will be able to recruit Gavinor as a willing champion.

No problem. That's part of the fun of having differing theories.

 

7 hours ago, mdross81 said:

But setting that aside, walk me through how Gavinor-as-champion would guarantee a victory for Todium in the (admittedly very unlikely) event that Dalinar realizes that he has been outmaneuvered by Todium and, in a moment of doubt and weakness, gives in to the Taravangian utilitarian worldview and decides he simply must kill Gavinor for the greater good. I can envision a couple of possibilities. But given your well thought-out arguments, I’m just curious if you have gamed out how that might translate into a victory for Todium.

No problem! I'll warn you now though, it's a bit messy. 

To me, Gavinor Taravangian's most sensible choice for a Champion...and his ultimate downfall. Taravangian would see it as I explained above. Dalinar wouldn't be able to give in and kill Gavinor because his Oaths, his direct Connection to Honor (and his own past trauma) wouldn't allow him to. Taravangian thinks he has this in the bag - either Dalinar gives up and he's free, Dalinar refuses to fight and there's a stalemate and he's free, or Dalinar offers himself up to Gavinor to kill and Odium wins.* 

But what Taravangian doesn't account for - what even Rayse himself didn't expect - is for the fact that Dalinar isn't your everyday Bondsmith. He's a Bondsmith Unchained, not unlike Ishar. Dalinar can play with Connection, as evidenced in his intervention with Kaladin. That's where I think this is all going. I think Dalinar is going to take the Connection of Odium's Champion upon himself while tossing his Connection as Honor's Champion to someone else (either Szeth or Taln), and possibly his bond to the Stormfather to a third person (most likely Kaladin IMO). Dalinar then sacrifices himself, and things go haywire from there. 

This makes sense in terms of the story too. Dalinar has always been a (Black)thorn in Taravangian's side. Taravangian kept sending Szeth after Dalinar in order to have him killed, since he wouldn't become the Blackthorn and be an ally. But all it did (no thanks to Moash and Graves) was result in Kaladin swearing the Third Ideal. From Words of Radiance Chapter 84, "The One Who Saves."

Quote

"The Diagram spoke of this," Graves said, scuttling back along the corridor. "We missed it. We missed it completely! We focused on making certain you were separated from Dalinar, and not on what our actions might push you to become!" 

 

In Oathbringer, Taravangian plots to take over the Coalition from Dalinar, first by revealing Dalinar's position as High-King, and then by revealing secrets about the Voidbringers. (I think there's a third plot too, but I can't remember at the moment.) From Oathbringer Chapter 121, "Ideals."

Quote

Taravangian didn't enter. He stood, waiting, until Dalinar sighed softly. 

"You abandoned me," he said. "You abandoned this city." 

"I assumed that you were going to fall," Taravangian said, "and so positioned myself in a way that I could seize control of the coalistion." 

Dalinar started. He turned toward the old man, who stood silhouetted in the doorway. "You what?"

"I assumed that the only way for the coalition to recover from your mistakes was for me to take command. I could not stand with you, my friend. For the good of Roshar, I stepped away." 

Even after their discussions together - even knowing how Taravangian viewed his obligations - Dalinar was shocked. This was brutal, utilitarian politics.

Chapter 122, "A Debt Repaid," discusses this in greater detail when Taravangian and Odium talk. Dalinar was supposed to fall at Thaylen Fields, not Ascend and still lead the Coalition. 

Taravangian always seems to think that he can get the better of Dalinar, but then either Dalinar or someone around Dalinar does something to change the game. I don't see that pattern stopping in this final book. 

 

So yes, Odium loses, BUT Dalinar wasn't his chosen Champion...so what happens? A lot of things could happen, but I think that Odium will gain some wiggle room and either escape or make a deadly blow to the planet/system that will eventually cause it to weaken so that he can escape later on, and causing the primary conflict for the next arc. (I have more theories about this, but this isn't the thread for them.) 

(Another potential outcome is that since Dalinar wasn't chosen, the rules of the Contest are more or less broken, and Odium is free.)

From a meta-perspective, it feels like something weird almost has to happen. Book 5 is the smallest book to date, Sanderson has a LOT of storylines to wrap up in ten days. That's not a lot of time. So either he wraps them all up in ten days, does a few more days for denouements and epilogues, and the book is over. Or he could wrap up the Contest of Champions in ten days, have things go off the rails, and then spend the rest of the book dealing with that and whatever true finale will come. 

Still a third outcome is that Odium himself is splintered, with El and possibly Gavilar grabbing those pieces and doing their own things will them.** (A likely outcome that doesn't really counter my own theories, but who knows.)

IMO, the problem with nearly any victory for Odium in a straight-up duel is that it's not a satisfying conclusion, something Brandon is actively trying to achieve. The problem with Odium escaping and going to disrupt other planets at this time is that it makes it feel like the Stormlight Archive is necessary to understand those later books, or that you need those other books to finish the story. I have friends who don't read other Cosmere books, and they'd feel left out or cheated if they're told "now you have to understand the Cosmere to get the end of Odium's story." Despite the books becoming far more Cosmere-heavy, Sanderson still wants the series to be read separately until Mistborn Era 4 I believe. 

 So yeah, Odium loses, but does so in a way that sets up our villains and main conflict for the second half, while also not letting our heroes win the way they wanted to. 

 

*Which would technically be breaking a potential promise to Gavinor, so he may be injured by that...assuming he made a lasting promise in the first place. 

**And now I'm picturing Gavilar leading misguided Rosharan forces vs Hoid or whoever would lead Scadrian forces in Mistborn Era 4. 

[Benkinsky]

On 13.2.2021 at 0:16 AM, Shob the Voidbringer said:

just gonna say, not exactly a repeat. 1) gavilar would have been preparing 2) gavilar is evil,

this is one of the main reasons I like this theory so much, no joke. Gavilar always wanted immortality and legacy, for Kelsier surviving even that was a lucky chance. And one is as close to a clearly just evil mortal as we have seen in the Cosmere imho.

(If anyone here know's the lore of Mordekaiser from League of Legends, think Mordekaiser. How freaking cool would that be?)

let's roll it down from the top. In addition to the many good arguments people have brought forth for why Gavilar could've survived, kicking off some events, let's go the other direction: What future event could, looking back, be enabled by Gavilar?

Put this way: we basically know that there will be Scadrial vs Roshar Conflict, and many of us probably wonder how that will come to be and be satisfying, because we the reader know both worlds, both sides, and it would be hard to pit Wax and Gang vs Kaladin and Gang without us freaking out. Gavilar, on the other hand, would be easy to accept as an antagonist in this conflict.

To add to the arguments for the immediate future and not the far flung one, why would Dalinar be the first Human that Odium considers to want as a Fused? One Shard/Godspren already said "yeah originally we wanted Gavilar, but now that he's dead I guess we take Dalinar", why wouldn't another?

Plus, so many ideas/theories that are floating around just combine so well with not even Champion, but Fused Conqueror Emperor Gavilar. "Conquest" or "War", a teamup or fusion of Honor and Odium? We all imagined how scary a Fused Blackthorn would be (and he would be), but there in plain sight is Gavilar, who ever prologue tells us is "what if Dalinar was smarter and more evil and ambitious and megalomanic". Fused or War!Herald Gavilar is scary as shades.

plus, we've all thought "oh man how tragic would it be if Dalinar, after all his growth, gives in to his old ways and does the same mistakes", thinking of him going with the Thrill and being the Blackthorn. Wouldn't it be kind of the same thing if he became a follower of Gavilar again, once again subordinating to his Brother and being his most powerful weapon.

[Crackpot theory time: Can multiple people hold the same shard? I've wondered this, if you could have two people sharing a shard, basically two massive Splinters? If so, let's get one crazier, could two people share the same mixed shard? Dalinar and Gavilar, both bearing half of Honor and half of Odium, one as Conquest and one as War or something? yeah, I think I'm reaching truly unrealistic ends here.]

In all seriousness, both the idea of Fused Dalinar and El, the Rythm-less Carapace-less Fused, and Human Vyre are preparing us for the thought that who fills these important roles might be odd. I really thing CS Gavilar has a lot of merit. I just hope it wasn't Endowment who gave him breath or returned him.

[Cheat Commando]

20 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

[Crackpot theory time: Can multiple people hold the same shard? I've wondered this, if you could have two people sharing a shard, basically two massive Splinters? If so, let's get one crazier, could two people share the same mixed shard? Dalinar and Gavilar, both bearing half of Honor and half of Odium, one as Conquest and one as War or something? yeah, I think I'm reaching truly unrealistic ends here.]

This actually sounds pretty cool to me, not gonna lie. I would like to think this is theoretically possible, but as for right now, I get the impression that Brandon won't take it this direction because Odium just barely changed hands; I think good ol' Vargodium is gonna hang around for a bit.

But still, I think the mechanics of that are possible, especially the combining and redistributing of two Shards. Have an upvote!

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Cheat Commando said:

This actually sounds pretty cool to me, not gonna lie. I would like to think this is theoretically possible, but as for right now, I get the impression that Brandon won't take it this direction because Odium just barely changed hands; I think good ol' Vargodium is gonna hang around for a bit.

But still, I think the mechanics of that are possible, especially the combining and redistributing of two Shards. Have an upvote!

My edition of this is: Honor/Cultivation/Odium ALL get merged, but in 10 different ratios for the "leaders" of each Order to pick up, or to fuse with their Spren to make them all godspren-tier+.

[animalia]

On 6/9/2021 at 9:11 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Heh, thanks!

 

No problem. That's part of the fun of having differing theories.

 

No problem! I'll warn you now though, it's a bit messy. 

To me, Gavinor Taravangian's most sensible choice for a Champion...and his ultimate downfall. Taravangian would see it as I explained above. Dalinar wouldn't be able to give in and kill Gavinor because his Oaths, his direct Connection to Honor (and his own past trauma) wouldn't allow him to. Taravangian thinks he has this in the bag - either Dalinar gives up and he's free, Dalinar refuses to fight and there's a stalemate and he's free, or Dalinar offers himself up to Gavinor to kill and Odium wins.* 

But what Taravangian doesn't account for - what even Rayse himself didn't expect - is for the fact that Dalinar isn't your everyday Bondsmith. He's a Bondsmith Unchained, not unlike Ishar. Dalinar can play with Connection, as evidenced in his intervention with Kaladin. That's where I think this is all going. I think Dalinar is going to take the Connection of Odium's Champion upon himself while tossing his Connection as Honor's Champion to someone else (either Szeth or Taln), and possibly his bond to the Stormfather to a third person (most likely Kaladin IMO). Dalinar then sacrifices himself, and things go haywire from there. 

This makes sense in terms of the story too. Dalinar has always been a (Black)thorn in Taravangian's side. Taravangian kept sending Szeth after Dalinar in order to have him killed, since he wouldn't become the Blackthorn and be an ally. But all it did (no thanks to Moash and Graves) was result in Kaladin swearing the Third Ideal. From Words of Radiance Chapter 84, "The One Who Saves."

 

In Oathbringer, Taravangian plots to take over the Coalition from Dalinar, first by revealing Dalinar's position as High-King, and then by revealing secrets about the Voidbringers. (I think there's a third plot too, but I can't remember at the moment.) From Oathbringer Chapter 121, "Ideals."

Chapter 122, "A Debt Repaid," discusses this in greater detail when Taravangian and Odium talk. Dalinar was supposed to fall at Thaylen Fields, not Ascend and still lead the Coalition. 

Taravangian always seems to think that he can get the better of Dalinar, but then either Dalinar or someone around Dalinar does something to change the game. I don't see that pattern stopping in this final book. 

 

So yes, Odium loses, BUT Dalinar wasn't his chosen Champion...so what happens? A lot of things could happen, but I think that Odium will gain some wiggle room and either escape or make a deadly blow to the planet/system that will eventually cause it to weaken so that he can escape later on, and causing the primary conflict for the next arc. (I have more theories about this, but this isn't the thread for them.) 

(Another potential outcome is that since Dalinar wasn't chosen, the rules of the Contest are more or less broken, and Odium is free.)

From a meta-perspective, it feels like something weird almost has to happen. Book 5 is the smallest book to date, Sanderson has a LOT of storylines to wrap up in ten days. That's not a lot of time. So either he wraps them all up in ten days, does a few more days for denouements and epilogues, and the book is over. Or he could wrap up the Contest of Champions in ten days, have things go off the rails, and then spend the rest of the book dealing with that and whatever true finale will come. 

Still a third outcome is that Odium himself is splintered, with El and possibly Gavilar grabbing those pieces and doing their own things will them.** (A likely outcome that doesn't really counter my own theories, but who knows.)

IMO, the problem with nearly any victory for Odium in a straight-up duel is that it's not a satisfying conclusion, something Brandon is actively trying to achieve. The problem with Odium escaping and going to disrupt other planets at this time is that it makes it feel like the Stormlight Archive is necessary to understand those later books, or that you need those other books to finish the story. I have friends who don't read other Cosmere books, and they'd feel left out or cheated if they're told "now you have to understand the Cosmere to get the end of Odium's story." Despite the books becoming far more Cosmere-heavy, Sanderson still wants the series to be read separately until Mistborn Era 4 I believe. 

 So yeah, Odium loses, but does so in a way that sets up our villains and main conflict for the second half, while also not letting our heroes win the way they wanted to. 

 

*Which would technically be breaking a potential promise to Gavinor, so he may be injured by that...assuming he made a lasting promise in the first place. 

**And now I'm picturing Gavilar leading misguided Rosharan forces vs Hoid or whoever would lead Scadrian forces in Mistborn Era 4. 

If Kaladin gets connected to the Stormfather how does that affect his bond with Syl?

[Use the Falchion]

7 hours ago, animalia said:

If Kaladin gets connected to the Stormfather how does that affect his bond with Syl?

I probably would be supercharged, but nothing else may change. Bonds with multiple Spren IS possible as seen by Shallan*, and I don't think Syl would mind too too much IMO. (There's also the potential theory that the Stormfather may be killed also. If that happens, then his power (and probably Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow) would pass to Syl via the three-way bond.)

 

*And possibly Adolin in Book 5, if my tinfoil "Notum will bond with Adolin while Adolin helps bring Maya back to life" theory comes true.

[Bort]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:05 PM, AquaRegia said:

Is there any evidence in Words of Radiance, when Dalinar is seeing the visions but before he explicitly bonds the Stormfather, to support the idea that he could draw in Stormlight?

Maybe not in WoR, but after he has bonded the Stormfather, he feels the stormlight healing him, and realises that he's felt that before, out on the battlefield. That must have been before he swore his first oath