Gavilar theory [DISCUSS]

[+En-priestess]

Okay so I posted a theory about Odium’s champion in the ROW lore/magic thread and I feel like nobody saw it or maybe just thought it was too unlikely or insane or something... BUT I was just rereading the ROW prologue and gosh I’m so damn convinced that Odium’s champion is going to be Gavilar!! 
 

This is what he says to Navani in the prologue:

Quote

“Write whatever you want about me. Say it, shout it, proclaim it. I will outlive your accusations, and my legacy will persist. I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end. I will never end.”

This is freaking me out. Like at first I was just trying to think through all the possible candidates for Odium’s champion and people like Szeth just seemed a bit too obvious to me, so I thought who would be the most surprising AND crippling to Dalinar? And who better than Gavilar himself, the one he looked up to and failed.

Now I do actually think this could be possible! And maybe even likely from these words that Gavilar says. And since we know that the next prologue is going to be from Gavilar’s perspective, what if we get to the part where he’s killed and he appears in the cognitive realm and finds a way to stick around? He was slightly invested like Eshonai was. And the more info we get about him (RoW prologue and Venli flashbacks), the more we learn how much crazy cosmere stuff Gavilar was in on. His relationship to the heralds, and to Axindweth who seems to clearly be a worldhopper of who knows what allegiance - he even seems to know of Kelsier/Thaidakar. So what if he figured out a way to stick around and his motives are not what we think. His whole stint with the Sons of Honour seem to have been a cover for other intentions, since he already knew the heralds were around? It just seems crazy to me how much Gavilar was in on - like where did he get those void light and, especially, the anti-voidlight spheres?! So many questions. Can we get all the answers to them in one prologue? Or will we get those answers from Gavilar as an actual character in the next book!! He is so obsessed with being extraordinary, with unending existence, so what if he finds the opportunity for this by joining Odium’s forces? 

I at least think it’s possible that we will find out in the prologue that Gavilar has stuck around, and if he does I think he would be an excellent and surprising candidate for Odium’s champion.

 

Also one death rattle I remembered could perhaps support this theory...

Quote

“I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?”

Interested to read thoughts!

[AquaRegia]

VERY compelling... I think you may really be on to something.

One question: what is the evidence Gavilar was Invested when he physically died?

[Requiem17]

I did see this theory somewhere else (Todium's Champion thread?), and the second I read it it really struck home. There's a scene in Oathbringer at Gavilar's funeral, the Soulcaster says something really weird to Dalinar that could be interpreted as Gavilar lived on.

Quote

“The only part of you that is true,” the Soulcaster whispered, tapping a stone that had replaced one of the king’s eyes.

 

 

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

One question: what is the evidence Gavilar was Invested when he physically died?

I believe he had a proto-bond with the Stormfather, which might have given him precious few seconds to be picked out in the CR by... something...

[Requiem17]

Gavilar could have had Breaths:

Quote

there was an air of … distortion around Gavilar. Nothing supernatural or nonsensical. It was just that … well, you accepted that Gavilar could do whatever he wanted, in defiance of any tradition or logic.

And

Quote

Gavilar suddenly stood up straight and glanced toward the doorway, though Navani hadn’t made any sound.

Life sense potentially??

[+En-priestess]

7 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

VERY compelling... I think you may really be on to something.

One question: what is the evidence Gavilar was Invested when he physically died?

Yeah like @Halyo_Alex said, I think it’s implied that Gavilar, by receiving the Almighty’s visions from the Stormfather, was forming a proto-bond. But perhaps there were other ways he was invested too...

@Requiem17’s comment is super interesting! Those do sound like Gavilar was holding Breaths! Or some kind of investiture that provides similar effects... I wouldn’t be surprised to find that he had Breaths if he is Cosmere aware and had access to things like voidlight and anti-voidlight.

[Jorr]

I like this theory much better than the baby one, however it seems weird to me that it wouldnt be immediate surprise for Taravangian and hence mentioned in the text after his ascension.

[+En-priestess]

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

I like this theory much better than the baby one, however it seems weird to me that it wouldnt be immediate surprise for Taravangian and hence mentioned in the text after his ascension.

I agree. That is one thing I’m not sure about - why we never got hints about Gavilar being part of Odium’s plan (both Rayse’s and now Taravangian’s). Also why the Stormfather wouldn’t have known. I’m not sure how to explain it but perhaps Gavilar figured out his own way to stick around and maybe that is the “something else” that Taravangian notices in chapter 114?

Quote

“Taravangian was startled as he became aware of something else. A growing power nearby, visible only to one such as him. A godly power, infinite and verdant. He was not alone.”

I’m not sure but perhaps Gavilar has found his own way of entering the realm of gods as he told Navani he had during the prologue, and only now can Taravangian notice him or perhaps only now has Gavilar chosen to revealed himself. This is very speculative but I don’t think it’s impossible that Gavilar could have hidden himself from Odium or the Stormfather, since it seems Kelek was able to keep his location in the cognitive realm hidden also otherwise the Stormfather could have just told Dalinar that he was at Lasting Integrity

Edited January 23, 2021 by Kahlani
Typo

[+Bzhydack]

25 minutes ago, Kahlani said:

I agree. That is one thing I’m not sure about - why we never got hints about Gavilar being part of Odium’s plan (both Rayse’s and now Taravangian’s). Also why the Stormfather wouldn’t have known. I’m not sure how to explain it but perhaps Gavilar figured out his own way to stick around and maybe that is the “something else” that Taravangian notices in chapter 114?

I’m not sure but perhaps Gavilar has found his own way of entering the realm of gods as he told Navani he had during the prologue, and only now can Taravangian notice him or perhaps only now has Gavilar chosen to revealed himself. This is very speculative but I don’t think it’s impossible that Gavilar could have hidden himself from Odium or the Stormfather, since it seems Kelek was able to keep his location in the cognitive realm hidden also otherwise the Stormfather could have just told Dalinar that he was at Lasting Integrity

This "something else" was most likely Cultivation.

But this is very interesting (and relativly popular) theory - Gavilar becomes Cognitive Shadow, invested by Odium, and will come back to take back what he thinks is his. Being Cosmere-aware he can know how to do this.

[AquaRegia]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This "something else" was most likely Cultivation.

"Godly", "infinite" and "verdant" strongly imply that this is Cultivation.  Gavilar would not be ANY of those three things, and "verdant" means green, lush, growing.

I find the evidence of Gavilar being Invested rather underwhelming, but lack of evidence doesn't prove anything.  We clearly can neither confirm nor refute the possibility of other types of Investiture being available to him.  I can accept that the Stormfather was giving the visions to Gavilar - makes sense, in fact.  That was literally his only job at that point, to choose someone important and show them the visions. 

Is there any evidence in Words of Radiance, when Dalinar is seeing the visions but before he explicitly bonds the Stormfather, to support the idea that he could draw in Stormlight?  I don't remember any.  Certainly some degree of Spiritual Connection can be inferred, but enough to permit a Cognitive Shadow to persist?  And if so, why would the Stormfather fail to ever mention this to Dalinar?  Seems like an awfully important item to keep your Radiant in the dark about.

Also, semi-related Gavilar question: what are we supposed to make of the fact that Nale was well aware that Szeth was in town to kill the King... and not only didn't bother to warn him, but seemed completely unconcerned that Gavilar was about to meet his end?  I get that they were not "friends", but they were sharing information and making plans, right?

[yulyulk]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Also, semi-related Gavilar question: what are we supposed to make of the fact that Nale was well aware that Szeth was in town to kill the King... and not only didn't bother to warn him, but seemed completely unconcerned that Gavilar was about to meet his end?  I get that they were not "friends", but they were sharing information and making plans, right?

He literally tells Venli how to kill Gavilar. And I think this takes place after Nale & Kalak meet with the king, too. RoW ch. 77:

Quote

"I believe I must offer you a service, listener. The king is planning to betray your people. [...] There is a man here in the city tonight. I have been tracking him due to his unusual circumstances. He possesses an artifact that belonged to a friend of mine. [...]

"Tonight I found reason to have [Gavilar] killed, but it will take me months of planning to achieve the proper legality. [...] The man who can help you is a slave for sale in the market. [...] This Shin man bears Jezrien's Blade."

I'm unsure what exactly turned Nale against Gavilar, because Venli was just stabbing in the dark when she said that voidspren returned to Roshar because of Nale's failure. Nale says (again ch 77):

Quote

"So, Gavilar's plan is working. The fool. He will destroy us all." Nale sneered, a sudden and unexpected burst of emotion. "That foolish idiot of a man. He lures us with promises, then breaks them by seeking that which I told him was forbidden! Yes. I heard it tonight. The proof I need. I know. I know..."

In Navani's prologue, she overhears Gavilar and the two Heralds discuss transporting items (Voidlight spheres?) back and forth from Braize. Does Nale perhaps assume Gavilar was transporting voidspren as well?

[AquaRegia]

Rust and Ruin, I forgot all about that.  Just goes to show how dangerous it is to deal with (or cross) a Herald...

7 minutes ago, yulyulk said:

Does Nale perhaps assume Gavilar was transporting voidspren as well?

Or offworld Investiture?  Invested items from other planets?  Maybe "a chain from the lands of the dead, said to be able to anchor a person through Cognitive anomalies"?  Anything seems possible now.

[yulyulk]

37 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Rust and Ruin, I forgot all about that.  Just goes to show how dangerous it is to deal with (or cross) a Herald...

Or offworld Investiture?  Invested items from other planets?  Maybe "a chain from the lands of the dead, said to be able to anchor a person through Cognitive anomalies"?  Anything seems possible now.

If Kalak's goal was to free himself from the Rosharan system...well, I'm not sure what Nale's goal is (besides preventing a Desolation), but I could see Gavilar wanting to become a Herald-type entity (and also needing a way to free himself from Roshar). Each prologue chapter is titled "To _____"; Szeth is "To Kill", Jasnah is "To Question", Eshonai is "To Weep", and Navani is "To Pretend". What if the 5th book prologue is called "To Survive" or "To Ascend" lol (or it could just be "To Die" buuuut yknow.)

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, yulyulk said:

If Kalak's goal was to free himself from the Rosharan system...well, I'm not sure what Nale's goal is (besides preventing a Desolation), but I could see Gavilar wanting to become a Herald-type entity (and also needing a way to free himself from Roshar). Each prologue chapter is titled "To _____"; Szeth is "To Kill", Jasnah is "To Question", Eshonai is "To Weep", and Navani is "To Pretend". What if the 5th book prologue is called "To Survive" or "To Ascend" lol (or it could just be "To Die" buuuut yknow.)

To Live is probably most apropriate.

 

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Or offworld Investiture?  Invested items from other planets?  Maybe "a chain from the lands of the dead, said to be able to anchor a person through Cognitive anomalies"?  Anything seems possible now.

I dont think simply items from other worlds wuold be enough to force Nale to murder. Kalak knows how to free Seon, so he has to encounter this type of foreign magic before. And Nale alone seems to be ok with Nightblood, The Most Dangerous Item in whole Cosmere.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Bzhydack

[Eri]

That's a great theory!

I was very much in the camp of "Gavilar is a CS now" after RoW, but never connected this to "Odium can do fun stuff with CS and BTW needs a champion". Also, the Death Rattle quote. I think it all fits perfectly.

[+En-priestess]

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

"Godly", "infinite" and "verdant" strongly imply that this is Cultivation.  Gavilar would not be ANY of those three things, and "verdant" means green, lush, growing.

Yeah I do agree it’s most probably Cultivation. 
 

But I don’t think that rules out the fact that Gavilar could have found a way to remain as a Cognitive Shadow that the Stormfather wouldn’t be aware of, otherwise of course he would have told Dalinar. 
 

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Is there any evidence in Words of Radiance, when Dalinar is seeing the visions but before he explicitly bonds the Stormfather, to support the idea that he could draw in Stormlight?  I don't remember any.  

@Requiem17 pointed out some clues from the RoW prologue that Gavilar was invested - his ability to sense Navani at the door despite her not making any noise for example. And with his access to so many types of investiture including the voidlight and anti-voidlight spheres, his Cosmere awareness, he may have had the opportunity to become invested in many ways other than a proto bond with the Stormfather.

6 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Also, semi-related Gavilar question: what are we supposed to make of the fact that Nale was well aware that Szeth was in town to kill the King... and not only didn't bother to warn him, but seemed completely unconcerned that Gavilar was about to meet his end?  I get that they were not "friends", but they were sharing information and making plans, right?

Such a good point. Maybe something to do with the voidspren returning like @yulyulk said. It was Axindweth after all who gave Ulim to Venli and she was part of Gavilar’s group. But I’m not sure, whatever it is it shows that Gavilar had his hand in big Cosmere things...

[AquaRegia]

23 minutes ago, Kahlani said:

But I don’t think that rules out the fact that Gavilar could have found a way to remain as a Cognitive Shadow that the Stormfather wouldn’t be aware of, otherwise of course he would have told Dalinar.

Oh, I'm definitely in agreement... I'm just looking for more evidence.

25 minutes ago, Kahlani said:

@Requiem17 pointed out some clues from the RoW prologue that Gavilar was invested - his ability to sense Navani at the door despite her not making any noise for example.

"Life sense" is a Breath-related ability; I was asking here specifically about Stormlight, again, just to see if there were any hints I've missed.  I agree it is possible - likely, even - that he'd found a way to get some kind of Investiture from offworld.

[Halyo_Alex]

58 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I agree it is possible - likely, even - that he'd found a way to get some kind of Investiture from offworld.

Dang, now you got me wondering if he was bonded to a Seon...

[teknopathetic]

In the prologue, Gavilar says to Szeth "I expected this" or some such and then says "Tell Thaidakar he is too late".

Seems like Gavilar might have had a plan. And I don't see Gavilar's plan allowing for his own permanent death. 

[Halyo_Alex]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:25 PM, teknopathetic said:

says "Tell Thaidakar he is too late".

That line really hits different now, doesn't it...

[+En-priestess]

On 1/25/2021 at 10:25 AM, teknopathetic said:

In the prologue, Gavilar says to Szeth "I expected this" or some such and then says "Tell Thaidakar he is too late".

Seems like Gavilar might have had a plan. And I don't see Gavilar's plan allowing for his own permanent death. 

Omg yes!

Also just remembered this conversation between Shallan and Mraize in chapter 13 of RoW, when Shallan asks why he was going after Ialai and the Sons of Honor:

Quote

"Now that is a brilliant question," Mraize said... "The secret has to do with Gavilar. The old king. What was he doing?

"The same old question," Shallan said. "I spent weeks researching his life under Jasnah's tutelage. She seemed to think he was after Shardblades." 

"His aspirations were not nearly so lowly as that," Mraize said. "He recruited others, promising them a return to the old glories and powers. Some, like Amaram, listened because of these promises - but for the same reason were as easily lured by the enemy... But Gavilar... what did he truly want?"

"I don't know. Do you?"

"Immortality, in part. He thought he could become like the Heralds. In his quest, he discovered a secret. He had Voidlight before the Everstorm - he carried it from Braize, the place you call Damnation. He was testing the movement of Light between worlds. And one close to him might have answers..."

So Gavilar found secrets that lead him to believe he could become like the Heralds - aka a cognitive shadow. He discovered things that even Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods don't know. I'm so storming convinced he succeeded in part of his plans and that he's out there somewhere and for some reason he will become Odium's champion to further his goals.

[+Child of Hodor]

I really hope the only Gavilar we see in book 5 is his POV in the prologue and spiritual realm him a la Tien in book 4. If Dalinar and or Navani Connect to Gavilar and they have a talk that'd be cool.

I don't see Gavilar as a character that needs to come back. Kelsier was a co-main character of a book who died near the end of it. We at least new him. We don't know Gavilar that well, I feel like the prologues will give us most all the we need on who he was and what he was up to.  I don't want a Stormlight Secret History with a guy we barely knew hanging out as a ghost off-page for 7 years and then shows up at the end of book 5 as a surprise.  

There's 900 named characters in this series, one of them can stay dead. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Category:Rosharans

[Retrac]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

new

*knew

[Shob the Voidbringer]

gavilar reminds me the lord ruler, i mean seriously, gavilar's like "i have dscovered the entrance to the realm of gods", and TLR simply doesn't allow worship of anyone other than him, claiming to be a god

[AquaRegia]

It took some convincing, but I am now 100% on Team “Gavilar is definitely coming back”.  I’m not going so far as to predict he will be Odium’s Champion, (although I think it’s quite likely)... but I will be SHOCKED if Gavilar does not make some kind of present-day (non-flashback) appearance in the next SA novel.

Consider the overwhelming preponderance of groundwork that has been laid:

We see the day of his assassination in the prologue of every single novel.  We’ve had POV accounts from Szeth, Jasnah, Eshonai, Navani, and also, in a RoW flashback chapter, Venli.  We’re obviously supposed to infer that this event – and thus Gavilar himself – is very important.  I fully expect that the prologue of Book 5 will be Gavilar’s own POV of that day, setting the stage for us to see how exactly he avoided permadeath, and his return to a physical body.

He’s a huge part of Dalinar’s flashback arc.  I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Gavilar is the single most important reason Dalinar is the man he is today.  A confrontation with his brother is the obvious pinnacle of Dalinar's journey.  Gavilar has also had direct and important influences on Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar, Venli, and other critical viewpoint characters.

We know that he was trading information and making deals with Heralds; that he was involved with the Sons of Honor, whose goal was presumably the return of the Desolations – which we still don’t fully understand; that he knew about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods, another hot topic we have MUCH to learn about; that he had access to both Voidlight AND Antivoidlight years before anyone else knew about them.

Finally, we know that he was Cosmere-aware, likely importing items and/or Investiture from offworld, and learning about the Cognitive Realm and Realmatic Theory.  Mraize claims, in talking to Shallan, that Gavilar travelled to Braize himself and brought back Voidlight, and that he was "testing the movement of Light between worlds".  He obviously knew Thaidakar wants this knowledge.  What other reason would he have to assume it was Thaidakar who had him killed?  There are multiple reasons to think he was Invested when his body was killed, and we all KNOW what THAT means.

He is literally THE CENTRAL FIGURE of just about every mystery in this entire 5-book series, despite never (yet) having a single POV chapter.  I don’t see how anyone can even doubt that he’ll turn up somehow.

Edited February 12, 2021 by AquaRegia
MORE evidence LOL