Necessary Eagle

The even-more tragic tragedy of Vasher and Shashara

14 posts in this topic

I mean it's already a very sad story: Vasher kills his wife in order to prevent her from unleashing an army of soul-eating swords on the world. But it potentially gets even worse. Because there's a number of WoBs suggesting that making Nightblood was a lot more complicated than "insert 1000 Breaths, get most ridiculously-Invested item in the Cosmere"

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Megasif

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

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OrangeJedi

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say, there is something special.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

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yulerule

*Written:* So somewhere it says that the number of Breaths doesn't determine the power of the object. But are the number of Breaths directly tied to how much Investiture is in an object? You're repeatedly said that Nightblood is ridiculously heavily Invested, more so than Shardblades, Honorblades, or the Bands of Mourning. But it only has a thousand Breaths, which doesn't seem all that much from the point of view of the God King--Tenth Heightening, over 50,000.

Brandon Sanderson

So this is a RAFO, but you're starting to ask the right questions there. Okay?

*Writes:* RAFO

 

and I'm getting the impression that something went into Nightblood's secret sauce that his creators weren't aware of. Like there was a Shard meddling, or some sort of disturbance in the Force right as they gave the Command.

Which would mean that Shashara's recipe-- the one that Vasher killed her to prevent her from releasing it-- wouldn't have actually been able to forge Nightblood 2: The Invested Bugaloo. Her death would have been pointless. Vasher killed the woman he loved, and it didn't even make a difference.

If I'm right, well, way to twist that knife, Brandon.

Edited by Necessary Eagle
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First off, I still think that an Awakened sword is a bad idea even if it isn't quite at Nightblood level. But also, my theory is that Shashara's death was somehow a necessary part of Nightblood's creation, although I have no evidence for it other than that Nightblood still doesn't think she's dead.

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45 minutes ago, Negative_Null said:

First off, I still think that an Awakened sword is a bad idea even if it isn't quite at Nightblood level. But also, my theory is that Shashara's death was somehow a necessary part of Nightblood's creation, although I have no evidence for it other than that Nightblood still doesn't think she's dead.

Hmm. What happens to awakened objects when their creator dies? hmm. Nightblood was used to kill her and the reason for it, though, so i doubt Nightblood became what he is after the initial creation or Sharahra's death.

Also, @Necessary Eagle remember, we have seen that awakened swords are basically less powerful but still effective shardblades. Imagine how much death mass producible shardblades would cause?

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Hmm. What happens to awakened objects when their creator dies? hmm. Nightblood was used to kill her and the reason for it, though, so i doubt Nightblood became what he is after the initial creation or Sharahra's death.

Also, @Necessary Eagle remember, we have seen that awakened swords are basically less powerful but still effective shardblades. Imagine how much death mass producible shardblades would cause?

I just think that her death might have changed him somehow, just because of how he and Vasher talk about it. But again, no real evidence. 

Oh yeah, I forgot about those...

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2 hours ago, Negative_Null said:

I just think that her death might have changed him somehow, just because of how he and Vasher talk about it. But again, no real evidence. 

Oh yeah, I forgot about those...

I haven't :( Give me more Azure!

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13 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, @Necessary Eagle remember, we have seen that awakened swords are basically less powerful but still effective shardblades. Imagine how much death mass producible shardblades would cause?

Shardblades are scary-- but they're not Nightblood-level "gods tremble at his name" scary. Freakin' Hoid is scared of Nightblood, and he told Jasnah that her living shardblade couldn't hurt him.

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1 minute ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Shardblades are scary-- but they're not Nightblood-level "gods tremble at his name" scary. Freakin' Hoid is scared of Nightblood, and he told Jasnah that her living shardblade couldn't hurt him.

On a Cosmere scaleless so, but on Nathlis, it would be an easy way to get terrible power.

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I’m guessing nightblood has divine breath in him, somehow

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Nightblood started with 1000 Breaths, but is absorbing Investiture when used and I not all of it leaves as the smoke. Some stays and accumulates with time. I can't link an exact WoB, but I remember Brandon saying something along those lines, or at least that's how I interpreted it.

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21 hours ago, Eri said:

Nightblood started with 1000 Breaths, but is absorbing Investiture when used and I not all of it leaves as the smoke. Some stays and accumulates with time. I can't link an exact WoB, but I remember Brandon saying something along those lines, or at least that's how I interpreted it.

I remember something like that too, Brandon confirming that Nightblood is getting stronger but there's a lot of Nightblood WoBs...

 

I think even if the resulting Type 4 wasn't on the level of Nightblood, it's a very dangerous knowledge. Shardblades are dangerous and unlike on Roshar, there is no overarching need for them, nor are there restrictions like the Oaths; and the sheer amount of exploitation such knowledge could kick-start... can you imagine how many people would be divested of their Breath for the greater good/for the nation?

Edited by Honorless
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On 1/21/2021 at 10:00 PM, Necessary Eagle said:

... I'm getting the impression that something went into Nightblood's secret sauce that his creators weren't aware of. Like there was a Shard meddling, or some sort of disturbance in the Force right as they gave the Command.

Which would mean that Shashara's recipe-- the one that Vasher killed her to prevent her from releasing it-- wouldn't have actually been able to forge Nightblood 2: The Invested Bugaloo. Her death would have been pointless. Vasher killed the woman he loved, and it didn't even make a difference.

If I'm right, well, way to twist that knife, Brandon.

Yes, I see your point, that the "something unexpected and special" about Awakening Nightblood was something they didn't intend or understand, which means his fears of there being an army of Nightblood wielders was unfounded and hence the murder was ultimately unnecessary. I wonder if Vasher has realized this by now, and if that plays into his mention of "do what helps you sleep at night" to Kaladin.

As to what that "secret sauce" was, given the oblique nod to Endowment being "more involved", I'm thinking it has to do with not the quantity but the quality of the Breath used for Nightblood. That is, at least one Divine Breath, perhaps multiple, with a Returned saying "My life to yours, my Breath become yours" directly to Nightblood during its creation? Is that nuts?

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On 25/01/2021 at 3:11 PM, Eri said:

Nightblood started with 1000 Breaths, but is absorbing Investiture when used and I not all of it leaves as the smoke. Some stays and accumulates with time. I can't link an exact WoB, but I remember Brandon saying something along those lines, or at least that's how I interpreted it.

I'm not sure that he is accumulating more over time or not but Vasher used Nightblood to kill Shashara so he consumed all of her breaths including her divine breath.

And that black smoke. It seems like Nightblood turns everything into ruins investiture.

I can't wait for some answers to Nightblood... or anything. I feel like RoW created questions then answered some of them but left us with all our previous questions.

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Is anywhere exactly stated how Vasher killed her?

My thinking has always been then her death and the current state of Nightblood are related. I think nightblood was much worse but Vasher killed Shashara with Nightblood in a way that altered Nightblood by somewhat "infusing" it with Shashara.

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On 2/4/2021 at 4:29 AM, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

Is anywhere exactly stated how Vasher killed her?

My thinking has always been then her death and the current state of Nightblood are related. I think nightblood was much worse but Vasher killed Shashara with Nightblood in a way that altered Nightblood by somewhat "infusing" it with Shashara.

I think it's mentioned in Wabreaker that he killed Shashara with Nightblood. Which is even more interesting given how often Nightblood seems to forget Shashara is dead.

Ah, here it is: in the same scene where Nightblood recognizes VaraTreladees (Denth), in Chapter 29:

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Hey! Nightblood said. It’s VaraTreledees! We should go talk to him. He’ll be happy to see me.

Vasher stood openly atop the building. He didn’t really care who saw him. He rarely did. An endless flow of people passed on the colorful street. VaraTreledees—Denth, as he called himself now—walked among them with his team. The woman, Jewels. Tonk Fah, as always. The clueless princess. And the abomination.

Is Shashara here? Nightblood asked, excitement in his nebulous voice. We need to go see her! She’ll be worried about what happened to me.

“We killed Shashara long ago, Nightblood,” Vasher said. “Just like we killed Arsteel.” Just like we’ll eventually kill Denth.

As usual, Nightblood refused to acknowledge Shashara’s death. She made me, you know, Nightblood said. Made me to destroy things that were evil. I’m rather good at it. I think she’d be proud of me. We should go talk to her. Show her how well I do my job.

“You are good at it,” Vasher whispered. “Too good.”

Nightblood began to hum quietly, pleased at the perceived praise. ...

Of course, saying "we killed Shashara" to NB may not imply that Vasher used NB to do the deed, as in pretty much the same sentence he states how "we" killed Arsteel. But he later reveals to Denth that he'd done so via the same "Ecstasy of Breath" trick he'd just pulled on him, to immobilize him for a killing blow, yet Arsteel's body was used to make Clod the Lifeless, and thus couldn't have been done with Nightblood.

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