Do you believe in God?

[Nathrangking]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

God created light and dark, separated them from each other, and called them day and night respectively. Then the Bible specifically states that there was evening and morning, implying that God made a normal day cycle (without the sun existing). And since God is already making a day/night cycle, it doesn't seem unreasonable that God made the cycle 24 hours.

I'm not sure that I understand. Here is the text: וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י א֑וֹר וַֽיְהִי־אֽוֹר.  וַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָא֖וֹר כִּי־ט֑וֹב וַיַּבְדֵּ֣ל אֱלֹהִ֔ים בֵּ֥ין הָא֖וֹר וּבֵ֥ין הַחֹֽשֶׁךְ׃  ׃ Again interpretation aside "God says let there be light and there was light. God sees the light is good and separates darkness from light. You are correct the words evening and morning are present. However, to interpret them to mean that there is a 24-hour cycle taking place in the absence of the heavenly bodies that make such things relevant is a stretch. If I am reading day one it seems that on day one God creates the concepts of light and dark and night and day. Then this moment of creation is over. Time exists now. On day four we get to days, weeks, months, seasons, and years.

[NameIess]

19 minutes ago, Trutharchivist said:

It also doesn't seem unreasonable He didn't.

Not completely unreasonable, but it is not the natural assumption, in my opinion. You can justify it not being a literal day, but if you were studying the Bible without any predetermined assumptions, I feel that you would come to the conclusion that it was a literal day.

19 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Nameless okay, I said I am going to cover this in the general religious discussion thread, but two things:

• Day 1 can't have been 24 hours by the pure logic of it - light was created as the start of that act of creation and the LIGHT was called day; day can't mean 24 hour period. It, and its pair with day 4, are all about the creation of time and means of measuring time, but day is used in the first instance of the word in the scriptures to refer to light, and therefore if taken literally it means the 12 hour period;
• If it is poetic then allusions to day and morning and evening are elements of its poetic structure; much like talking about one's love being a rose and referring to her thorns doesn't mean you really are talking about a rose and not a human

If you object to it being poetry - and I am going to make a strong case for it being poetry - why do you do so? It being poetic means evening and morning? Maybe - if this topic is going to be discussed further here - it might be best if you give our objections to the points I listed in my previous post here so I can mull them over in advance of the specific topic discussion.

Sure, I can answer your points here. The basic problem I have with it being poetry is that attempts to explain the six-day creation account away as nonliteral or symbolic have, in my experience, been motivated by a desire to reconcile the Bible with an old-earth perspective and/or an evolutionary perspective on the origin of life, an attempt which I feel is both unnecessary and potentially theologically problematic. I don't know this to be the reasoning behind your explanation, but that is the main reason behind my skepticism.

On your more specific points, I have some thoughts.

• The word used for 'day' can refer to day, as in daytime, day, as in the unit of time, or simply a general period of time. So when God called the light day, as in daytime, God was not defining the word to be singly used in reference to daytime. Given the context of including 'evening and morning', it does not make sense for day to be referencing daytime in that specific context.

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Oh boy, you're probably going to enjoy the discussion on this when I do my post in the general religious discussion thread on this, but in brief:

• The days of creation are written as a poem with a lot of poetic strucuture, and poems are usually not supposed to be taken literally - they also aren't teaching there were seven days to create but rather showing the order within creation in its poetic structure - it also matches a temple dedication ceremony (the last part being putting an image of the god in the temple - Mankind was made in God's image)
• Day seven is explicitly unending - all other days the narrative takes pains to ensure are listed as ending, whereas day seven is not - this point is continued in the Book of Hebrews
• (Side point: Only day six and day seven are "the" day, the rest are just "day")
• All the days together are explicitly referred to as one day in the very next section ("in the day God made Heaven and Earth" where Heaven is made on day 2 and Earth on day 3) showing the days are figurative
• Day is also used elsewhere as a general term for a period of time in scripture, and there are scriptures which state time to God is both shorter and longer than people perceive it - the account is also from God's perspective

On your earlier points, here's my response:

• I can't answer for the poetic structure until that's extrapolated on more, but matching a temple dedication ceremony makes a lot of sense. The Bible is filled with repetitions like this. The story of Jonah, in the belly of the fish for three days, points to the story of Jesus, in the grave for three days. Animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus' perfect sacrifice. In this case, the earth was made to glorify God, just as the temple was made, just as, in the current day, Christians are made into 'temples' for God.
• Day seven being unending and only day six and seven being referred to as 'the' day are interesting points, and probably have some significance. Not sure what that is.
• Regarding the point that all the days of creation are referenced as a single day, that's using the same word 'בְּיוֹם יוֹם' or 'yôm' transliterated, which can refer to daytime, a literal day, or a period of time. However, if it were referring to a period of time during the creation account, why include the 'evening and morning' bit? (other than poetic license, I suppose)
• That word is used as a general period of time, and time is different from God's perspective, but Genesis is being written for humans to read. Again, I don't see a reason for God to tell us it was a day, when it actually wasn't a day.

4 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

I'm not sure that I understand. Here is the text: וַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִ֣י א֑וֹר וַֽיְהִי־אֽוֹר.  וַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָא֖וֹר כִּי־ט֑וֹב וַיַּבְדֵּ֣ל אֱלֹהִ֔ים בֵּ֥ין הָא֖וֹר וּבֵ֥ין הַחֹֽשֶׁךְ׃  ׃ Again interpretation aside "God says let there be light and there was light. God sees the light is good and separates darkness from light. You are correct the words evening and morning are present. However, to interpret them to mean that there is a 24-hour cycle taking place in the absence of the heavenly bodies that make such things relevant is a stretch. If I am reading day one it seems that on day one God creates the concepts of light and dark and night and day. Then this moment of creation is over. Time exists now. On day four we get to days, weeks, months, seasons, and years.

My assumption is that if God is making a dark/light cycle that is day and night without stars existing, why not set it at 24 hours? I can't say for certain that God did that, and I suppose it doesn't particularly matter theologically, but it seems odd that God would go to all the 'trouble' of creating a night/day cycle to make days and then just set some random amount of time for the day and night to be.

[Szeth's Facepalm]

On 5/18/2022 at 3:30 PM, Szeth's Facepalm said:

So in conclusion? I don't know if i believe in a god, exactly. But i do think there is something out there that could have the potential to be a god, if that makes any sense. I guess this was just a roundabout way of saying i'm a weird brand of agnostic lol

*obviously this is just my opinion, it could most certainly be wrong, this is just the reasoning my weird little brain came up with and obviously i respect everyone else's beliefs*

Ok, i have done some thinking since this... peculiar post, and have also had an experience that leads me to believe this: i think it is likely that there is a god, or a higher power of some sort. Maybe it goes beyond death, i don't know. But what i have trouble believing in is one that is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Any of those on their own are fine, even two of them together. If it was infinitely loving, it would want us all to be happy, so it would want to banish sadness and pain from the world. If it was also omniscient, it would know of all the sadness and pain in the world now and all the sadness and pain to come. But it wasn't omnipotent, so it wouldn't be able to stop all of the pain and sadness. If it was omnipotent and omniscient, but not omnibenevolent, maybe it liked seeing the suffering sometimes and let it be. If it was all-powerful and all-loving but not all-seeing, it would banish as much suffering from the world as it could, but it wouldn't be able to see all of it so it wouldn't be able to banish all of it. But all three.... that just doesn't make sense. If we're saying it's because of agency, i think god would at least stop all the sadness and pain that stems from religion. That doesn't mean it would have to say "this religion is the correct religion, follow it", but i'd imagine, if it was omnipotent, that it would make it so love for everyone, regardless of their religious beliefs, was the most important part of every single religion and every single person. (I know a lot of people think that way, but there are to many that don't for me to believe it is already happening.)

So basically, i think it is likely that there is some sort of god or higher power, but i don't think a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent could exist.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

53 minutes ago, Szeth's Facepalm said:

If it was infinitely loving, it would want us all to be happy, so it would want to banish sadness and pain from the world. If it was also omniscient, it would know of all the sadness and pain in the world now and all the sadness and pain to come. But it wasn't omnipotent, so it wouldn't be able to stop all of the pain and sadness. If it was omnipotent and omniscient, but not omnibenevolent, maybe it liked seeing the suffering sometimes and let it be.

not necessarially, If you consider that sometimes we as humans act against our own wishes to gain something better for us and for our children. He has given this time on Earth to us to become better, and one cannot become better without trials. He loves us enough that he wants us to be able to choose, choose for ourselves what we should do, but we cannot choose the consequences for most of our actions.

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, Szeth's Facepalm said:

*obviously this is just my opinion, it could most certainly be wrong, this is just the reasoning my weird little brain came up with and obviously i respect everyone else's beliefs*

Ok, i have done some thinking since this... peculiar post, and have also had an experience that leads me to believe this: i think it is likely that there is a god, or a higher power of some sort. Maybe it goes beyond death, i don't know. But what i have trouble believing in is one that is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Any of those on their own are fine, even two of them together. If it was infinitely loving, it would want us all to be happy, so it would want to banish sadness and pain from the world. If it was also omniscient, it would know of all the sadness and pain in the world now and all the sadness and pain to come. But it wasn't omnipotent, so it wouldn't be able to stop all of the pain and sadness. If it was omnipotent and omniscient, but not omnibenevolent, maybe it liked seeing the suffering sometimes and let it be. If it was all-powerful and all-loving but not all-seeing, it would banish as much suffering from the world as it could, but it wouldn't be able to see all of it so it wouldn't be able to banish all of it. But all three.... that just doesn't make sense. If we're saying it's because of agency, i think god would at least stop all the sadness and pain that stems from religion. That doesn't mean it would have to say "this religion is the correct religion, follow it", but i'd imagine, if it was omnipotent, that it would make it so love for everyone, regardless of their religious beliefs, was the most important part of every single religion and every single person. (I know a lot of people think that way, but there are to many that don't for me to believe it is already happening.)

So basically, i think it is likely that there is some sort of god or higher power, but i don't think a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent could exist.

Ah yes, theodicy again rears its head. I must first say this is a thoughtful piece. Let me play the other side.

Why would an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient deity do that? We as human beings perhaps would like a God who thinks the way that we do to be the one if there is one. However, we may be making a large number of assumptions here. Such a deity likely would not seek to remove free will from human beings as a perfect world is meaningless. Immortal and infallible humans living in paradise are pointless. Why should such beings exist? A perfect deity does not need people to exist so what exactly would be the point of the human race to exist at all much less a perfect race that sits around in perfection. 

From this point, we have several options. Maybe no god exists and then we have no problem. Things might or might not get interesting as one can argue both sides. Option 2, A limited deity exists and therefore suffering and sadness exist because the said deity is either unable to or unwilling to prevent these things. However, this requires us to know why people exist, to begin with. Why would a limited god take the time or effort to create humanity in the first place? Even a cruel deity might not waste their time in creating this organism that maybe sometimes amuse it. If the said deity was not all-powerful, could it even create humanity? Maybe and maybe not. If the deity is not all-knowing, what was the end goal here? Seems like a shoddy plan to me. Said deity should be ashamed. What were they thinking? We do have a third option. Perhaps, an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient deity does exist, but that deity was not playing games here and creating a toy to muse itself. Maybe that deity if it exists wanted what was best for humanity and created everything for them. That deity wanted them to be filled with purpose and the ability to choose. This means that they can choose poorly and hurt others. While this runs counter to the reason that the deity created things they do not want to break the world anymore. Therefore, they set up a system in the world where sometimes the most obvious "wrath of god" I guess you might call it visits those who make human suffering their business. I already sense the, but sometimes evil wins. They get away with it and never see justice. Is that always the case? We don't always see the paranoia and suffering that follows them around. They can live decades without a moment of peace. Forget an afterlife these people often live in an earthly hell of their own making. It might want good for us, but we sometimes just don't live up to that. Also, theodicy is a tricky thing that I hardly did justice to. 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nathrangking

[Lotus Blossom]

Okay I don't even know how I found this inactive thread, but:

I do, I'm a non-conservative muslim. I don't wear a headscarf or fast during school days, but I still pray to Allah the same way <3

Also, of course everyone has those thoughts of "what if?" which I have as well, but no, I wouldn't be able to say I'm an atheist...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Lotus Blossom

[Argenti]

I'm an atheist for various reasons, I was raised Christian but always found that church is very boring. Later on, I realized I was gay and that many scriptures outright said my existence was wrong, (Though many of these holy texts have been edited to fit the times, Leviticus 18:22 was changed from anti-pederasty to anti-homosexuality by Emperor Constantine, if a random guy can change the holy words, how can you trust any of it?) so I pretty much refuse to believe in any of those ones. If there is an all-loving god, who knows all and is all-powerful, why is there so much suffering? And don't start on "God works in mysterious ways" or "It's free will that causes pain" I really hope that my uncle wasn't paralyzed from the neck down (From a disease that started to develop in the womb.) for almost 50 years and then died a slow death from cancer because God wanted a laugh.

Faith as a concept seems... strange to me. How can you trust something that neither you nor anyone else has seen, and the only proof is a book that was written over a period of a thousand years? Now, this is mostly my gripes with Christianity, by extension, the other Abrahamic religions, as I haven't looked in depth into anything else, but as a whole, religions drift, and if there was a sentient being behind it, wouldn't it step in so we all know how and why it was worshiped?

[InfiniteInsanity]

15 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Faith as a concept seems... strange to me. How can you trust something that neither you nor anyone else has seen, and the only proof is a book that was written over a period of a thousand years? Now, this is mostly my gripes with Christianity, by extension, the other Abrahamic religions, as I haven't looked in depth into anything else, but as a whole, religions drift, and if there was a sentient being behind it, wouldn't it step in so we all know how and why it was worshiped?

I think that the easiest way for me to try to explain how I know is to steal someone else's idea.

Pretend that I have never had anything with salt or any salt ever before. Describe what salt tastes like to me.

Edited April 29, 2023 by InfiniteInsanity

[Argenti]

7 minutes ago, InfiniteInsanity said:

Pretend that I have never had anything with salt or any salt ever before. Describe what salt tastes like to me.

Well, in this scenario, I also wouldn't have tasted the salt; you would have an account written long ago, before much of what we hold as truth was known. 

[InfiniteInsanity]

Just now, Argenti said:

Well, in this scenario, I also wouldn't have tasted the salt; you would have an account written long ago, before much of what we hold as truth was known. 

No no. Don't try to logic your way out.

Describe salt to me.

[Argenti]

9 minutes ago, InfiniteInsanity said:

No no. Don't try to logic your way out.

Describe salt to me.

Salt is a crystalline mineral compound that is composed mainly of sodium chloride (NaCl). The taste is a chemical reaction. As for the Flavour itself? Thats subjective and can not be described without circular logic. However, I know salt has a taste because I can prove it does with empirical evidence, but neither you nor I can perceive God.

The best way to describe salt is to give some to you rather than try to describe it.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Argenti

[The Bookwyrm]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

but neither you nor I can perceive God.

The best way to describe salt is to give some to you rather than try to describe it.

Our belief is that we can perceive God. Not in a visual, tangible sense, but we believe in personal revelation through the Holy Ghost that provides a testimony that God is real and that he loves us. I've felt emotions, thoughts, feelings, that I can't explain in any other way, things that come from outside my own thoughts, that help me feel an assurance of that existence and that love.

But it's hard to explain and describe to someone who hasn't felt it themselves, hence the salt metaphor.

That's what I believe, what I've felt, anyway.

[Argenti]

Just now, The Bookwyrm said:

Our belief is that we can perceive God. Not in a visual, tangible sense, but we believe in personal revelation through the Holy Ghost that provides a testimony that God is real and that he loves us. I've felt emotions, thoughts, feelings, that I can't explain in any other way, things that come from outside my own thoughts, that help me feel an assurance of that existence and that love.

But it's hard to explain and describe to someone who hasn't felt it themselves, hence the salt metaphor.

That's what I believe, what I've felt, anyway.

To each their own I suppose it's your life you may do as you please. Even if God is real, I refuse to worship them because there is far to much pain in this world for me to worship a being that started it all.

 

 

Here are a couple of other common theological arguments for god, then il'l respond with my ideas.

The earth is "Just right" for life: No, it isn't. We're just right for the earth, we evolved to survive and thrive here, not the other way around. 

The built-in Morals of Right and Wrong: How do we know what's right and what's wrong? Well, there are two causes, Social conditioning and survival instincts. We don't like it when something gets taken from us, that's a resource we could use later!

Intelligent design: DNA and the complex ecosystems wasn't designed, evolution built it up over millions of years.

I really hope their something out in that universe, for all our sakes. Because otherwise? We're alone and have to pay for our own mistakes.

 

[InfiniteInsanity]

Just now, Argenti said:

Salt is a crystalline mineral compound that is composed mainly of sodium chloride (NaCl). The taste is a chemical reaction. As for the Flavour itself? Thats subjective and can not be described without circular logic. However, I know salt has a taste because I can prove it does with empirical evidence, but neither you nor I can perceive God.

Seeing salt doesn't tell me that it has a taste. For all I would know it might not have a taste and you could be lying to me. 

The thing is I can't tell you what it feels like or looks like because the experience is different for each person. 

I can however tell you some of my experiences. And I will I'll give you two. But please consider that I can't make you feel what I have felt or know what I know. And that if you are dead set on the fact that I'm wrong then I'm afraid you might not be able to see that I might be right.

The first time I knew for sure, 100% certain, that this was all real was when I was 10. In my church at least we believe in keeping the sabbath day holy. We generally don't go shopping on Sunday. We try to rest and take a chance to escape all the heavy burdens of the world. When I was ten the dance academy I went to asked me to join their competitive dance team. But they had competitions on Sundays. I was given three options. First I could just join and go to the Sunday competitions, second I could join and they would give me an understudy that would perform in my place on Sundays, or third I could just not join. Instead of trying to make the decision on my own, I decided to pray and let God help me make my decision. I acted in faith that there would be someone to help me make this decision. After a few weeks of praying I came to a decision that was not by myself to just not join. If this had been up to just me I would have just joined and not given a second thought to it. Later as I continued to dance I started to notice that I was having fun dancing while the other girls who had decided to join the team were struggling and stressed. They were late to classes from meetings and got in trouble for it. They didn't focus in class and got in trouble for that too. I have also noticed that while I still do have many insecurities about my body they would have been way way worse had I joined a dance team. Because for dance as you get closer to professional dancing your body shape and type are criticized more and more and often taken into consideration as you dance.

The other one I will give is from just last summer. I reached a point where I was honestly considering suicide. I told myself that if someone didn't text me in the next ten minutes I would kill myself later that day. I told no one. It wasn't in a prayer it was just to myself. I didn't think there was any point in anything anymore. I wasn't acting too much out of the ordinary and no one who could have possibly communicated this sort of stuff to anyone else was even around to have noticed. Halfway through the ten minutes, I got a text from Bookwyrm. It wasn't just a "hi" or anything like that. It was a full-on paragraph about how much he cared about me and how much he wanted to help me through whatever I was going through. And it ended with a simple invitation to pray. I figured that since he had somehow known that I was falling so hard I would give it a chance. I knelt down and before I could even start my prayer I felt an overwhelming love fill me. And I knew that things would get better and that I wouldn't have to struggle alone like I felt I was. I knew that God was real, I knew that my Savior was real, I knew and I know. And God knows that I know. So I can't deny it.

I hope that you can believe me and trust me in this. I hope that someday you can feel the same hope that this all has given me to keep going. I know its hard to have faith or get faith. But the faith is there every time you trust someone or you trust that when you get up in the morning the sun will rise.

[Trutharchivist]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

To each their own I suppose it's your life you may do as you please. Even if God is real, I refuse to worship them because there is far to much pain in this world for me to worship a being that started it all.

 

 

Here are a couple of other common theological arguments for god, then il'l respond with my ideas.

The earth is "Just right" for life: No, it isn't. We're just right for the earth, we evolved to survive and thrive here, not the other way around. 

The built-in Morals of Right and Wrong: How do we know what's right and what's wrong? Well, there are two causes, Social conditioning and survival instincts. We don't like it when something gets taken from us, that's a resource we could use later!

Intelligent design: DNA and the complex ecosystems wasn't designed, evolution built it up over millions of years.

I really hope their something out in that universe, for all our sakes. Because otherwise? We're alone and have to pay for our own mistakes.

 

Look.

You can go on and on disproving each proof of G-d's existence, and believers can disprove your disproofs, but it'll just go on and on forever. Which is why I don't like books that try to prove G-d's existence: they do literally nothing.

So, I believe. You don't. We both have reasons for that. The question of suffering is a good one, but I'm sure you also know it's a well discussed one, and its answers don't have to simply be "G-d works in mysterious ways", period. There are more complex answers out there. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd say those don't make sense to you too. Honestly, the Internet isn't a good place for elaborate philosophical discussions, and I don't really know all the arguments on this topic.

Can I explain to you the experiences of a believer? Maybe. Maybe you'll explain it away, it's honestly not that hard. So yeah, to each their own.

[Argenti]

Just now, Trutharchivist said:

Look.

You can go on and on disproving each proof of G-d's existence, and believers can disprove your disproofs, but it'll just go on and on forever. Which is why I don't like books that try to prove G-d's existence: they do literally nothing.

So, I believe. You don't. We both have reasons for that. The question of suffering is a good one, but I'm sure you also know it's a well discussed one, and its answers don't have to simply be "G-d works in mysterious ways", period. There are more complex answers out there. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd say those don't make sense to you too. Honestly, the Internet isn't a good place for elaborate philosophical discussions, and I don't really know all the arguments on this topic.

Can I explain to you the experiences of a believer? Maybe. Maybe you'll explain it away, it's honestly not that hard. So yeah, to each their own.

Yup! Its always and forever up to each individual person you know what you've experienced and I know mine. So long as it doesn't hurt anyone, everyone can believe in or do whatever the heck they want. 

[InfiniteInsanity]

I agree. 

But also if someone asks how someone could believe in someone and something they have never seen I'm gonna try to explain how I can. And that's all I was trying to do.

Edited April 29, 2023 by InfiniteInsanity

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

After years of doubt and anger and anxiety, I have come to the conclusion that I do not believe in the existence of a god. Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it is the belief that affords me the most peace. For me, the implications that come with the existence of a god are terrifying: either this god cannot intervene in times of tragedy (personal or global), doesn’t want to, or - worst of all - is the cause of our suffering. To me, pain is unacceptable. There is no good reason why we have to go through it, there is no apology that makes it worth anything. I refuse to worship suffering by saying that it made me a better person. Because I am not my suffering.

I am a much happier, freer person when absolved of the divine. And the way I see it? There are so many religions with so many different ideas of what it takes to have a pleasant afterlife that if I try to follow all of them to cover my bases, I’m going to run myself into the ground. Why should I even care about what happens after I die? I want to live right now, I want to be happy right now, and I deserve peace right now. I spent far too long waiting for a god to deliver me when I had all I needed to deliver myself the whole time. And the fact is, none of us really know what happens after death, so why does it matter? Besides, I think being good for the sake of being a decent person to others is even more moral than doing it out of fear of some faceless god’s judgment. My thoughts are well-summarized by the following quote: 

Quote

I wish I could report that I have discovered answers to all of life’s mysteries, but alas that isn’t the case. I still don’t know whether or not there is life after death. I remain ignorant on the origins of the universe, if indeed the universe ever had a true beginning. I haven’t learned if there is a god, and if so what or who that god really is.
I do believe deeply that there is light in the universe. I have always sensed it, and while I cannot say whether it is born of my biology, or a conduit to a spiritual dimension, it is real all the same. I believe that the purpose and substance of life is love. I believe that joy and peace are possible, more profoundly and more universally than most of us realize. Ultimately, life is simpler than we make it out to be. How tragic to invest so much of our souls into processing the pain of the past and planning for happiness in the future, while the true joy and meaning of life is already waiting for us, here and now. (Jeremy T. Runnells)

Being raised on the assumption that a god existed and supposedly loved me was one of the most painful and devastating things to ever happen to me. Seeing children die of cancer and friends suffer at the hand of mental illness and trauma will never be compatible with the loving deity I was taught existed. To anyone who finds comfort in the idea of a god, I fully support them and would never want to take away that belief. However, I would also ask that believers respect other beliefs; I find it demeaning when people feel pity for me because my beliefs or my identity as a genderqueer, demisexual, panroamtic human means I might not make it to an afterlife that I don't even believe in and I find it insulting when they feel arrogant enough to take it upon themselves to try and save my soul. I am also strongly opposed to the idea that humanity is evil by nature - that can cause devastating issues of self-image - and the idea that I should credit all my happiness and good fortune to a god.

The universe is amazing and no matter your beliefs, our existence within it is a miracle, secular or divine. 

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

22 hours ago, Zephrun’s Imperium said:

The universe is amazing and no matter your beliefs, our existence within it is a miracle, secular or divine. 

A thousand times yes, cousin. A thousand times yes. It is truly miraculous.

[chongjasmine]

I believe in the christian God.

[Szeth's Facepalm]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:22 PM, Zephrun’s Imperium said:

After years of doubt and anger and anxiety, I have come to the conclusion that I do not believe in the existence of a god. Part of the reason I believe what I do is because it is the belief that affords me the most peace. For me, the implications that come with the existence of a god are terrifying: either this god cannot intervene in times of tragedy (personal or global), doesn’t want to, or - worst of all - is the cause of our suffering. To me, pain is unacceptable. There is no good reason why we have to go through it, there is no apology that makes it worth anything. I refuse to worship suffering by saying that it made me a better person. Because I am not my suffering.

I am a much happier, freer person when absolved of the divine. And the way I see it? There are so many religions with so many different ideas of what it takes to have a pleasant afterlife that if I try to follow all of them to cover my bases, I’m going to run myself into the ground. Why should I even care about what happens after I die? I want to live right now, I want to be happy right now, and I deserve peace right now. I spent far too long waiting for a god to deliver me when I had all I needed to deliver myself the whole time. And the fact is, none of us really know what happens after death, so why does it matter? Besides, I think being good for the sake of being a decent person to others is even more moral than doing it out of fear of some faceless god’s judgment. My thoughts are well-summarized by the following quote: 

Being raised on the assumption that a god existed and supposedly loved me was one of the most painful and devastating things to ever happen to me. Seeing children die of cancer and friends suffer at the hand of mental illness and trauma will never be compatible with the loving deity I was taught existed. To anyone who finds comfort in the idea of a god, I fully support them and would never want to take away that belief. However, I would also ask that believers respect other beliefs; I find it demeaning when people feel pity for me because my beliefs or my identity as a genderqueer, demisexual, panroamtic human means I might not make it to an afterlife that I don't even believe in and I find it insulting when they feel arrogant enough to take it upon themselves to try and save my soul. I am also strongly opposed to the idea that humanity is evil by nature - that can cause devastating issues of self-image - and the idea that I should credit all my happiness and good fortune to a god.

The universe is amazing and no matter your beliefs, our existence within it is a miracle, secular or divine. 

I absolutely adore everything you said here. This post has beautifully phrased a lot of the things that have been floating around in my head lately regarding a deity. I don't think i'll be able to fully let go of religion for a while due to how i am being raised, but i really appreciate this.

I guess i should say something relevant to the topic title lol

I... sort of believe in a god? I definitely don't believe in the kind i've been taught about. I believe that if there is a god, it cannot be simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent. For me it would make a lot more sense and be a lot easier if there was not a god, for a lot of the reasons stated in Zephy's post, but it's just been drilled into me so deeply that i am very scared that if i admit it i be punished after i die :/ so the result is a weird blend of sort-of agnosticism and religious trauma. Fun times!!

[Argenti]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:10 PM, Szeth's Facepalm said:

I... sort of believe in a god? I definitely don't believe in the kind i've been taught about. I believe that if there is a god, it cannot be simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent. For me it would make a lot more sense and be a lot easier if there was not a god, for a lot of the reasons stated in Zephy's post, but it's just been drilled into me so deeply that i am very scared that if i admit it i be punished after i die :/ so the result is a weird blend of sort-of agnosticism and religious trauma. Fun times!!

My mom feels pretty much the same way, she was raised very Catholic and it just kinda fizzled out

[Medium]

I’ve been raised LDS, and my faith has had… ups and downs. Most of that is my fault, and I’ve returned more heartily to the church in recent months.

But, and forgive the romanticism of it all, but when I decided to tell my now most beloved Luna of my feelings for her, that year ago, I do not believe it me who fabricated that idea. Being raised LDS, I believe in Heavenly Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And I believe it was a small, gentle idea from the Holy Ghost to tell Luna how I felt, that started the best year of my life thus far.

Not only this, but I’ve felt the light and love of my Father in Heaven many times over throughout the years, most recently a few weeks ago, when I came to Him with a broken heart, begging for help and healing. Which He graciously provided.

I will not mock or demean others beliefs. I will not hold my own beliefs above others. I will not force it upon others.

You have every right to believe whatever you wish, it does not change a thing about how people should or do feel about you.

I’d just like to share my own experiences:

Yes, I believe in God. Yes, I feel His love and wonder and pride at me and His creation. Yes, I am excited to act in His name in a couple of years, and to one day return to His realm.

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:10 PM, Szeth's Facepalm said:

I believe that if there is a god, it cannot be simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

I would like to know why you feel this way. I see no reason why God cannot be both. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

[Szeth's Facepalm]

19 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

I would like to know why you feel this way. I see no reason why God cannot be both. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

In my opinion, if a god were unable to prevent evil, then they would not be not all-powerful.