fullborn/radiant

[StanLemon]

I actually think I side with Pathfinder on that there seems a reasonable that Tension could do that. It would probably reduce mobility a bit but maybe it could be used just before they take a blow

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I actually think I side with Pathfinder on that there seems a reasonable that Tension could do that. It would probably reduce mobility a bit but maybe it could be used just before they take a blow

I would love that to be a use for it.  Do you think it would take more or less stormlight to harden ones own skin or to harden, to the same degree, clothing?  I imagine both would make mobility pretty difficult indeed.  It may be unlikely to help against someone moving quicker than your reflexes can help but it would be neat to be able to read about someone who sees a volley of arrows coming at them and decides to stand there and let them bounce off of them like superman.  

Edit:  

Beyond that if you could effect others the same way you could simply reach out and turn any foe into a hard plank for a moment and be able to plan your next move from there.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[NameIess]

32 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I actually think I side with Pathfinder on that there seems a reasonable that Tension could do that. It would probably reduce mobility a bit but maybe it could be used just before they take a blow

It would likely be much easier and safer to simply harden your shirt.

27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would love that to be a use for it.  Do you think it would take more or less stormlight to harden ones own skin or to harden, to the same degree, clothing?  I imagine both would make mobility pretty difficult indeed.  It may be unlikely to help against someone moving quicker than your reflexes can help but it would be neat to be able to read about someone who sees a volley of arrows coming at them and decides to stand there and let them bounce off of them like superman.  

Edit:  

Beyond that if you could effect others the same way you could simply reach out and turn any foe into a hard plank for a moment and be able to plan your next move from there.  

You could also just raise stone up in front of you. That way you actually protect the people around you. Or you could use a shield. Or you could harden your clothes.

[Pathfinder]

36 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would love that to be a use for it.  Do you think it would take more or less stormlight to harden ones own skin or to harden, to the same degree, clothing?  I imagine both would make mobility pretty difficult indeed.  It may be unlikely to help against someone moving quicker than your reflexes can help but it would be neat to be able to read about someone who sees a volley of arrows coming at them and decides to stand there and let them bounce off of them like superman.  

Edit:  

Beyond that if you could effect others the same way you could simply reach out and turn any foe into a hard plank for a moment and be able to plan your next move from there.  

I feel like it would be better and easier to do it to yourself rather than clothes as we see when kaladin uses gravitation, it steadily feeds off of his stormlight while if you infuse it into a stone, it will deplete based on how much stormlight you put into it. Also szeth commented how it took more stormlight to infuse an object than use the surge on himself. So it would be more cost effective to use it on yourself.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I feel like it would be better and easier to do it to yourself rather than clothes as we see when kaladin uses gravitation, it steadily feeds off of his stormlight while if you infuse it into a stone, it will deplete based on how much stormlight you put into it. Also szeth commented how it took more stormlight to infuse an object than use the surge on himself. So it would be more cost effective to use it on yourself.

So I pulled this from the coppermind website and the reference for it is some book signing at Orem. 

Quote

This allows the user to alter the shape of solid objects, but not human flesh, with Surgebinders able to grab matter and stretch it, altering the object as though it was soft clay. Cohesion is highly resisted by Investiture, and even a small amount of Stormlight in an object would prevent it from working.

That was from cohesion however under tension it again references that anything holding stormlight is very difficult to effect.  Aside from cohesion specifying "not human flesh" it must be noted that being filled with a magnitude of stormlight is a prerequisite of being able to use any surges in the first place.  

50 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It would likely be much easier and safer to simply harden your shirt.

You could also just raise stone up in front of you. That way you actually protect the people around you. Or you could use a shield. Or you could harden your clothes.

I 100% agree with this.  Being an earth bender is better than being the dang juggernaut anyways... plus once you gain access to plate it would be horribly redundant to harden your skin inside of it.  

[NameIess]

48 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I feel like it would be better and easier to do it to yourself rather than clothes as we see when kaladin uses gravitation, it steadily feeds off of his stormlight while if you infuse it into a stone, it will deplete based on how much stormlight you put into it. Also szeth commented how it took more stormlight to infuse an object than use the surge on himself. So it would be more cost effective to use it on yourself.

I could swear I saw a WoB somewhere about different surges having different levels of difficulty affecting investiture, and cohesion/tension being on the lower end, where it was extremely difficult to affect anything invested with it. I haven't been able to find it though.

Edit- The coppermind source that @Tamriel Wolfsbaine referenced was that WoB:

Quote

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nameless

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So I pulled this from the coppermind website and the reference for it is some book signing at Orem. 

That was from cohesion however under tension it again references that anything holding stormlight is very difficult to effect.  Aside from cohesion specifying "not human flesh" it must be noted that being filled with a magnitude of stormlight is a prerequisite of being able to use any surges in the first place.  

I 100% agree with this.  Being an earth bender is better than being the dang juggernaut anyways... plus once you gain access to plate it would be horribly redundant to harden your skin inside of it.  

For the longest time people thought all surges were unable to be used while in shardplate because investiture interferes with investiture. Then it was show it was the identity of the armor not being associated with the radiant that prevents it. So a radiant wearing their own shardplate could surge bind to their hearts content. 

So yes if a stoneward wanted to turn someone else into mud, they cannot.

But a radiant can use their own surge on themselves without issue. Otherwise edgedancers cannot use Abrasion,  windrunners and skybreakers cannot fly, and so on.

Personally I think the nickname of "stonesinew" is a pretty big hint. Not "stonearmor" or "stoneclothes". Its "stonesinew"

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For the longest time people thought all surges were unable to be used while in shardplate because investiture interferes with investiture. Then it was show it was the identity of the armor not being associated with the radiant that prevents it. So a radiant wearing their own shardplate could surge bind to their hearts content. 

So yes if a stoneward wanted to turn someone else into mud, they cannot.

But a radiant can use their own surge on themselves without issue. Otherwise edgedancers cannot use Abrasion,  windrunners and skybreakers cannot fly, and so on.

Personally I think the nickname of "stonesinew" is a pretty big hint. Not "stonearmor" or "stoneclothes". Its "stonesinew"

It would be pretty awesome if it comes to work that way.

However comparing it to gravitation when we have seen gravitation used on others besides themselves.   Note this from the coppermind on gravitation.  It specifically mentions gravitation being usable on other beings.  

Quote

When Lashing multiple objects or beings at a time, it is possible to create a sort of channel around the group, which will keep them close together.^[58] Basic Lashing requires skin contact if the Surgebinder is trying to infuse an external object or being.

I hear the evidence of "Stonesinew"  I am not saying it is impossible however I don't see it being all that practical especially once one has access to their own plate.  

What is possible will be found out with the stonewards book and they are the order I am most intrigued by so I anxiously await that.  Comparing gravitation, where we know it can effect other beings, and tensions / cohesion, where we have WoB saying it doesn't work on flesh, is really apples to oranges in the case.  They are still both fruits but their similarities pretty well stop there.  

I would be stoked to see the opposite defense.  Just turn into a blob of goo that the fullborn couldn't get ahold of to hurt anyway... you can't hurt water.  Fullborn probably will have an easier time getting through stonesinew than killing a puddle with eyes.  

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It would be pretty awesome if it comes to work that way.

However comparing it to gravitation when we have seen gravitation used on others besides themselves.   Note this from the coppermind on gravitation.  It specifically mentions gravitation being usable on other beings.  

I hear the evidence of "Stonesinew"  I am not saying it is impossible however I don't see it being all that practical especially once one has access to their own plate.  

What is possible will be found out with the stonewards book and they are the order I am most intrigued by so I anxiously await that.  Comparing gravitation, where we know it can effect other beings, and tensions / cohesion, where we have WoB saying it doesn't work on flesh, is really apples to oranges in the case.  They are still both fruits but their similarities pretty well stop there.  

I would be stoked to see the opposite defense.  Just turn into a blob of goo that the fullborn couldn't get ahold of to hurt anyway... you can't hurt water.  Fullborn probably will have an easier time getting through stonesinew than killing a puddle with eyes.  

Every WoB is regarding an external use of the power fighting against the investiture associated with an individual other than the radiant using the surge. Including the stone example. 
 

My intention was never to say a stoneward or taln would beat a full born. I thought I made that abundantly clear in my initial post. I was just surprised no one considered employing the surge in that way. Clearly it seems because some believe it does not function in that matter. I disagree. 
 

Please feel free to continue in the thread of fullborn versus radiant. 

[NameIess]

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For the longest time people thought all surges were unable to be used while in shardplate because investiture interferes with investiture. Then it was show it was the identity of the armor not being associated with the radiant that prevents it. So a radiant wearing their own shardplate could surge bind to their hearts content. 

So yes if a stoneward wanted to turn someone else into mud, they cannot.

But a radiant can use their own surge on themselves without issue. Otherwise edgedancers cannot use Abrasion,  windrunners and skybreakers cannot fly, and so on.

Personally I think the nickname of "stonesinew" is a pretty big hint. Not "stonearmor" or "stoneclothes". Its "stonesinew"

Actually, I could see that as being a specifically Taln thing. With access to unlimited stormlight from Honor, he wouldn't have to care about it using an inordinate amount of stormlight, and with thousands of years of experience he has the skill/reflexes to use the ability properly, and the impetus to learn to use it, because he doesn't get Shardplate.

[Frustration]

@Pathfinder that's amazing, how have I never thought of that.

If it does work you could use Cohseion on the joints so that they can continue to move, and make a patchwork tha way.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Every WoB is regarding an external use of the power fighting against the investiture associated with an individual other than the radiant using the surge. Including the stone example. 
 

My intention was never to say a stoneward or taln would beat a full born. I thought I made that abundantly clear in my initial post. I was just surprised no one considered employing the surge in that way. Clearly it seems because some believe it does not function in that matter. I disagree. 
 

Please feel free to continue in the thread of fullborn versus radiant. 

I'm not saying that it is impossible.  Just that we haven't seen it and it doesn't seem to line up with the WoBs available.  But there are so many RAFO answers that it is still well in the realm of possibility.   

I would love to see more magics making bodies more durable.   Heck I really want to see a kandra with an aluminum true body get hit by a shardblade if only to read the shock and thoughts of the shardbearer as their blade fuzzes and then suddenly gets stopped throwing off their entire attack.   

I think the out of the box thinking is great for the cosmere.  Just trying to think through the WoBs we have and gather what info we do have.  

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I'm not saying that it is impossible.  Just that we haven't seen it and it doesn't seem to line up with the WoBs available.  But there are so many RAFO answers that it is still well in the realm of possibility.   

I would love to see more magics making bodies more durable.   Heck I really want to see a kandra with an aluminum true body get hit by a shardblade if only to read the shock and thoughts of the shardbearer as their blade fuzzes and then suddenly gets stopped throwing off their entire attack.   

I think the out of the box thinking is great for the cosmere.  Just trying to think through the WoBs we have and gather what info we do have.  

It lines up perfect with the WoB from my perspective. Every instance in every WoB refers to the radiant using the power on a different person. In the example of the windrunner infusing the stone, that is due to the investiture being keyed to the windrunner. Hence the interference. That is why the windrunner could draw the stormlight fueling the surge in the stone back, but another radiant could not. 

 

Basically yes affecting investiture keyed to other beings is difficult for cohesion and tension. But when the investitures identity is keyed to the user, there should be nothing holding it back. It's the user's investiture. And we have examples across all magic systems that support that 

 

But the reason I said to move on, is discussing this isn't the point of the thread and is down to interpretation of the WoB. So I didn't see the need to belabor the points made.

[cometaryorbit]

There's also a significant difference between TLR and a hypothetical Era 2 Fullborn.

TLR had very high base Allomantic strength and access to Atium, but possibly no access to Chromium/Nicrosil/Cadmium/Bendalloy (he knew about them, but the Final Empire didn't have the ability to make them), and the critical weakness of dying if he loses his metalminds.

A hypothetical Era 2 Fullborn would have the new metals, but not Atium; might have lower base Allomantic strength; and wouldn't necessarily die without metalminds (unless unnaturally old).

[Dellexe]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:50 AM, cometaryorbit said:

There's also a significant difference between TLR and a hypothetical Era 2 Fullborn.

TLR had very high base Allomantic strength and access to Atium, but possibly no access to Chromium/Nicrosil/Cadmium/Bendalloy (he knew about them, but the Final Empire didn't have the ability to make them), and the critical weakness of dying if he loses his metalminds.

A hypothetical Era 2 Fullborn would have the new metals, but not Atium; might have lower base Allomantic strength; and wouldn't necessarily die without metalminds (unless unnaturally old).

Yeah, this is fairly important here. It's difficult to scale feats between the different eras as Allomancy in general is weaker by a decent degree in Era 2. If I recall my WOBs correctly, TLR also augmented his own Allomancy when he used the Well, as well as hemalurgic augmentations later. TLR could easily replicate any feat performed by a later character, with the possible exception of Vin mid-Ascension. If it was TLR, ignoring Character-Induced-Stupidity and giving him access to all 16 metals, it would guaranteed be a TLR victory. Surgebinders have some interesting hacks, but the base stats on a Fullborn are obscene, a far weaker Steel Compounder than TLR was able to move and shoot a gun fast enough that every observer only heard a single gunshot despite shooting several times. The best speed/reaction time feats on Surgebinders are roughly equivalent to Mistborn from Era 1, which is basically that they can reliably react to crossbow bolts or projectiles of similar speed, as far as I can remember. So a far weaker Steel Compounder than TLR exceeds a Surgebinder in speed by an order of magnitude, that being one both 1300 years removed from the last big injection of Allomancy into the gene-pool and the power weakened by being harvested through Hemalurgy. TLR, being a Savant or near-Savant in basically every power he had access to, could probably overcome some the downfalls of Compounded Speed to squeeze even more out of it, to say nothing of his base strength being higher. 

The Mistborn Adventure Game has some rules for Compounding that are interesting. Last page someone mentioned Compounded Copper, the game essentially states that it pulls in extra details that weren't recorded the more it's compounded, essentially allowing the Compounder to fully recreate the entire scene/event in their head, and not only limited to their point of view. Not sure how it would help with this fight, but it's an interesting tidbit from that game system. 

The biggest hurdle for the Surgebinder is that they would need to use their hacks on an enemy that far outclasses them in speed. If they can't reliably bring their abilities to bear on the Fullborn they lose. There's no question to me that a Fullborn could break through a Surgebinder's defenses. Like in speed, Surgebinders and Pewter-burners are roughly equivalent in oomph, and a Fullborn has the added benefit of Compounded Pewter, which grants enough strength to fling around RV sized boulders. If they wanted to pursue a ranged strategy, a Fullborn could use trace metals to turn slightly smaller boulders into projectiles. Compounding Brass to roast the Surgebinder alive if they try to get close enough is also a legitimate strategy. Being immune or resistant to emotional Allomancy required burning Copper (and being of comparable strength to the Allomancer), regardless of how Invested one was, which could really screw with the Surgebinder. 

Interesting fight to be sure, but speed is incredibly important in hypotheticals like this. Presuming equal skill, I think the Fullborn could avoid the worst of a Surgebinder's hacks and be able to kill them. At best the Surgebinder could run away with Gravitation, but that doesn't win the fight, it only prolongs it to an effective draw. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:07 AM, KalaDellexe said:

 If I recall my WOBs correctly, TLR also augmented his own Allomancy when he used the Well, as well as hemalurgic augmentations later.

TLR definitely used the Well to give himself supercharged Allomantic power (canonized in a WoB) - the HoA Epigraphs seem to say that his fundamental Allomantic power is equal to a Lerasium Mistborn's, but his actual effects seem greater (though 'savant or near-savant' ability could explain the disparity, maybe).

The WoB that people quote to say TLR gave himself increased power with Hemalurgy doesn't necessarily say that.

Quote

Darxbane

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy)

Brandon Sanderson

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

It's actually not clear whether "his most dramatic effects" means Marsh's or TLR's. And if it does refer to TLR, his "most dramatic effects" might be creating the koloss/kandra/Inquisitor 'species' (as others have pointed out).

[clowncarcrash]

I think raw powerwise a fullborn should win, but someone who has access to all 10 surges.... I think there's probably way more creative ways to win with those tools. 

[LordFlea]

A couple of things.

Its plausible that Bondsmith's power suite includes a time dilation effect, we see this with the Stormfather. This negates some of the Fullborn's potential with time shenanigans which is a major advantage for them.

As an Elsecaller you could transform all sources of metal to something else and transform the air around the fullborn to aluminium.

We dont know what a dustbringer could do but division can probably vaporise a fullborn with enough stormlight, enough to overcome double Gold

And they will have enough stormlight bc of the perpendicularity

I dont think it would be a one sided fight, The Stormlight avatar would also have all powers compounded slightly bc of overlapping orders. Also they're probably a hive mind at that point with 1 person 9 high spren and 1 god spren, this gives a slight advantage on the mental side