fullborn/radiant

[StanLemon]

The problem with Soulcasting a Fullborn is that it would have to be done before the Fullborn starts burning/tapping metals. Otherwise they would be too Invested to Soulcast. Even then, there is a WoB that the more an Allomancer burns metal the stronger there Innate resistance gets

[Chinkoln]

25 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

thanks, but for 3 i was wondering if their in a city, or a forest or something, just like generic areas, not what shardworld or planet their on. also, this is a little mind-bloggling because there are to many variables, like the radiant might soulcast something into metal which would be a big mistake

I think that the thread decided they were in a completely open area, with enough metal that the fullborn can jump around with allomancy but not enough to make them overpowered with that single ability. We haven't gotten into many specifics, we essentially have just discussed if F-speed is fast enough to end the battle as soon as it begins.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

okay, i think that if the radiant were intelligent then they would lash away quickly and then spy on them with their spren to learn more (an ability we are vastly under-estimating) and form a strategy on how to break their defenses, but i feel that the fullborn would still win, due to the fact that they can compound every ability they have

one more clarifying question

6. does the radiant have the ability to make a perpendicularity

Edited February 1, 2021 by Shob the Voidbringer
removing spoiler

[Chinkoln]

7 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

 

6. does the radiant have the ability to make a perpendicularity

No, we are assuming we have access to the 10 surges. Having access to the surges doesn't allow someone to open a perpendicularity, they need to be the exact right person under the right circumstances. Also, this is in Cosmere Discussion so you need to remove the RoW spoiler, even though you put it into a spoiler box.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

oh, i thought that they could go in spoiler boxes, it's removed now

[IAmTheStick]

And if they have all the surges, could the radiant use gravitation/reverse lashings to make coins no longer a problem? (Just go and fly- I mean fall- into the sky and attack from there?) Lashings would also likely disorient the opponent. Suddenly down is up, etc.

Could division also be used similarly to disintegrate any projectiles? Potentially the metalminds? The swallowed metals? Not sure of its range, but I think you could destroy an allomancer's metals relatively easily with this. It does work on humans.

Don't forget about regrowth for healing. "The Surgebinder can even reverse death with Regrowth; a body that has bled out or a soul that has been severed with a Shardblade can be healed with Regrowth and continue to function as if it has never been damaged." (Yay coppermind)

Lightweaving could be used to trick, backstab, and bamboozle opponents. 

Soulcasting can be done at a distance, as evidenced by Jasnah. Could this change metalminds and potentially even already swallowed metals to a different material, preventing usage of allomantic power?

If the radiant is in trouble, transportation could allow then to escape to the cognitive realm for added shenanigans.

Cohesion can be used along with lashings to easily traverse the earth (or roshar, or scadrial). Could also trap the allomancer in solid stone. 

I would imagine tension could cause the opponent's clothing to become hard as stone, negating the ability to become a speedy boi.

Whatever spiritual adhesion does. (Could we get dalinar's power thingy like in oathbringer?)

Also, shardguns. (Heard something about this somewhere, not sure about its validity, although I do think it is could be possible as of RoW.)

Stormlight also does enhance reflexes, strength, and speed. 

I think soulcasting and shards are the big ones here. Soulcasting (and division) are not stopped by people's bodies, and could destroy metalminds and metal reserves. We have seen Jasnah turn people into fire! Fight over. (Yes I know highly invested objects would resist it, but people are talking about pushing/pulling plate.) 

Chromium. It only sucks investiture through physical contact, and as we see, there are many ways to avoid it. If the opponent ever does touch the radiant, well, that's what abrasion is for. I'm fairly confident the radiant would have time to escape it, as "they would be fairly effective at draining... stormlight." I would imagine this means not as effective as leeches would be at draining metals.

I do think, however, that the full born has the advantage of compounding. I think a radiant with every surge could beat a Mistborn or a full feruchemist. But not someone who is BOTH a Mistborn and a full feruchemist.

Edited March 13, 2021 by IAmTheStick

[The Technovore]

I like the way you listed the Radiant's power uses. Let me try for the Fullborn's so we get a full comparison.

A-Iron/A-Steel, useful depending mostly on the terrain. A mistborn in the city is far more agile than a mistborn in the open air. However combined with F-Zinc they have the potential to go full Magneto with various metal debris, which would pose a problem for the Radiant.

A-Pewter, has a lot of effects on body strength and durability, ultimately not going to do much against a sprenblade, but it does provide the same physical alacrity that Stormlight does. F-Pewter turns you into the hulk, which is very easy to obtain with quick compounding. This will also help deal with that pesky plate, we'll see how well Super-Radiant likes getting slammed into the stone a dozen times.

A-Tin/F-Tin. Meh. It will help them process things better, and the strategic storing of certain senses could help counter lightweaving shenanigans. Other than that, it isn't going to do much until paired with F-Zinc.

A-Zinc/A-Brass. This doesn't do much against a Super-Radiant full of stormlight, but combined with A-duralumin could potentially make the Radiant reckless or depressed, which could easily spell their doom if they let it drop their guard.

A-Gold. Lets you compound F-Gold. F-Gold Compounding gives you healing powers about equivalent to a Radiant filled with stormlight, but not much more. It's a good way to even the field.

F-Zinc. This is a big one. A lot of Allomantic effects come with some form of mental boost to help control the powers, but F-Zinc cranks this up to 21, especially with compounding. Analyzing Radiant powers, enhanced control of all the various powers they're going through, better ways of interpreting enhanced senses, amazing things with A-Electrum and A-Iron/A-Steel. Very good power, 12/10, look out Radiant.

A-Electrum: The Poor Man's Atium, but paired with C-Zinc (compounded Zinc) can be just as potent and effective. Makes the fullborn exceedingly difficult to kill, especially when paired with:

F-Steel/C-Steel. How'd you like to be faster than the eye can see? How'd you like to be faster than the sprenblade can swing? How'd you like to be faster than the stormlight can lash? This is almost as effective an "I-Win" button as A-Atium used to be. Unless the Radiant can do something to stop this (which he can, but good luck to him getting it to work when you also have F-Zinc), he's in trouble.

Oh boy and I'm only half way through.

A-Aluminum. Let's you compound F-Aluminum. The problem is... why would you? What would having compounded Identity even do? idk.

A-Duralumin. Very effective for bursts of super-ultra-dopler power, but can only be used once and eliminates the stores of metal. May not be ultimately useful except for ending a battle, but you'd better be dang confident that it does end the battle or you're toast.

A-Chromium. It's been mentioned exhaustively--It drains investiture, which is very helpful against Super-Radiant. I would theorize that it could also be used to dispel lashings, which would make the fullborn very difficult to touch.

A-Nicrosil, could also cause havoc for the Super-Radiant, but in a different way. Imagine a Radiant about to Lash themselves into the sky and the A-Nicrosil activated Fullborn brushes their leg. I hope Super-Radiant has a plan for getting back to Roshar from SPAAAACCCE.

A-Cadmium/A-Bendalloy. May not be particularly useful, except that these speed bubbles can allow the Fullborn to suddenly change position, making at-range attacks very difficult. And obviously compounding.

F/C-Electrum. Fullborn's never going to give up. Fullborn's never going to let down. Fullborn's going to run around and hurt you.

F/C-Bronze & F/C-Bendalloy. Fullborn's also never going to need a break to eat or sleep. If the Radiant tries running, they're going to be sorely disappointed.

F/C-Cadmium. Negates any hopes of Soulcasting his head into stone and watching him drown.

F/C-Chromium. This is likely going to just screw with the Radiant's attempts of victory in a variety of improbable ways. Fortune may also be interpreted as random useful insights the Fullborn may receive to win in an improbable way.

F/C-Nicrosil. Now, this is interesting. Common consensus around the Shard says that a Fullborn should be able to either make more Fullborns or infinitely increase their power. This sounds broken and unlikely to me, however it's obvious that C-Nicrosil is going to do something stupidly powerful.

F/C-Duralumin. ?????

Did I miss anything? I'm not going to bother checking. I love the SA, I love Radiants, but when it comes to Fullborns... man. It's going to be very unlikely Super-Radiant can do anything against Fullborn unless Fullborn's super cocky, or ends up being baited into using their A-Duralumin.

[IAmTheStick]

So I think the consensus is the full born will win as they can compound. The "full"  radiant has a fair chance against a full mistborn OR a full feruchemist. 

 

...I still think radiants are cooler please don't hurt me xD

[Bejarden]

I don’t think there is a single being bar a Shard that can kill a Fullborn 

(there is no way a radiant is cooler)

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, IAmTheStick said:

So I think the consensus is the full born will win as they can compound. The "full"  radiant has a fair chance against a full mistborn OR a full feruchemist. 

 

...I still think radiants are cooler please don't hurt me xD

Actually there is a section of the Fandom, about half I'd say that says Radiants on par with or better than Mistborn.

I would even argue that if they started on different planets All Surge Radiant would win.

[The Technovore]

8 minutes ago, IAmTheStick said:

So I think the consensus is the full born will win as they can compound. The "full"  radiant has a fair chance against a full mistborn OR a full feruchemist. 

 

...I still think radiants are cooler please don't hurt me xD

Pedantry Moment: I think an Oath 4 Radiant for *most* orders would be able to handle a Mistborn or Feruchemist pretty handily. Mistborn and Feruchemists each only have a couple options for breaking the plate and getting to the meat inside, and the Radiant essentially only needs to not screw-up royally and find a way to touch them with their blade.

Like Bejardin said, Fullborns are stupidly broken and have essentially unlimited access to Investiture, as long as they have metal. If the "Full Radiant" included a Bondsmith's Connection and Perpendicularity perks, I think they'd have a better chance, the unlimited stormlight and gravitation could let them bait the Fullborn into using too much metal or their duralumin and win via attrition, but without that "infinite Investiture" the Radiant will lose.

But other than that yea I totally agree .

[+robardin]

18 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Pedantry Moment: I think an Oath 4 Radiant for *most* orders would be able to handle a Mistborn or Feruchemist pretty handily. Mistborn and Feruchemists each only have a couple options for breaking the plate and getting to the meat inside, and the Radiant essentially only needs to not screw-up royally and find a way to touch them with their blade.

Like Bejardin said, Fullborns are stupidly broken and have essentially unlimited access to Investiture, as long as they have metal. If the "Full Radiant" included a Bondsmith's Connection and Perpendicularity perks, I think they'd have a better chance, the unlimited stormlight and gravitation could let them bait the Fullborn into using too much metal or their duralumin and win via attrition, but without that "infinite Investiture" the Radiant will lose.

But other than that yea I totally agree .

How about this angle:

We don't know how it happened, but Rosharan Surgebinding of the Nahel Bond variety we see used by Radiants, is dangerous enough that Honor and Sane Ishar imposed the oaths and Ideals shortly after the spren started bonding humans as a means of enforcing a check.

Quote

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4 [actually, the heading to Ch.42]

For all we know, perhaps the fact that the Fifth Ideal is the "final" one is part of that checking (why aren't there Ten Ideals? Was that capping at Five something enforced by the now-gone Honor?).

This is because unchecked Surgebinding is dangerous enough for the dying Honor to "rave" about his passing likely leading to a Dawnshards-like effect and the destruction of Roshar.

That interpretation is not 100% clear from what the Stormfather said to Dalinar about Honor's last moments; but Notum, the honorspren ship's captain in Shadesmar, says this more directly to Kaladin in Oathbringer: "your bond is dangerous, without Honor. There will not be enough checks upon your power—you risk disaster.”

And say what you will about infinite metalminds via Compounding, but I can't see even Rashek, The Lord Ruler and only Fullborn we know to have existed so far, "destroying" Scadrial with his power.

That's because what makes Compounding amazing is its giving of sixteen flavors of nigh-infinite Feruchemical metalminds, and most of them are internal effects to the user rather than external to the world. There is no Feruchemical (or Allomantic) equvalent for the Surge of Division, or even of Progression in the context of healing another person, only tapping a goldmind to heal oneself.

I mean sure, I suppose with Compounding he could tap infinite metalminds for bronze, pewter, and steel (and atium, of course) and just sledgehammer the planet into rubble over a very, very, very long time.

But what created the Shattered Plains? I don't think even a Fullborn could manage that with just infinite metalminds.

In other words: in TLR, we see the "ultimate power level" attainable in an individual with the Metallic Arts. But in SA, we have yet to see what the "ultimate power level" attainable for a Surgebinder might be, except for hints and comments from Honor (via the SF's recollection) and from Notum that it'd be potentially planet-threatening.

So even if a Super-Surgebinder couldn't defeat Rashek one-on-one, they could certainly threaten the Nuclear Option and say, stand down or I take this planet with me as I go.

Edited March 15, 2021 by robardin

[Bejarden]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

And say what you will about infinite metalminds via Compounding, but I can't see even Rashek, The Lord Ruler and only Fullborn we know to have existed so far, "destroying" Scadrial with his power.

 

Componding iron and steel and pewter could probably crack the planets core thus destroying all life... Along with the Fullborn

(weight and speed and strength)

Also it took lots of people presumably to destroy Ashyn 

You get 2 Fullborns they will destroy a planet without breaking a sweat

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[+robardin]

20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Componding iron and steel and pewter could probably crack the planets core thus destroying all life... Along with the Fullborn

(weight and speed and strength)

The main OP-ness of being a Fullborn is the ability to max-tap a metalmind for just about forever, as long as you have enough of the metal on hand. That doesn't change the fact that max-tapping itself has an upper limit of effect. You just get to do it for an indefinite amount of time.

Think of it like the endless pasta option at Olive Garden. You can eat all the pasta you want, sure, ranging from tiny little orzo to gargantuan ravioli, but that doesn't mean there's the option of a single ravioli that's so big it would explode the building.

For example tapping a pewtermind causes the Feruchemist to physically enlarge, and at some point you max out at literally the maximum "strength" that a physical body can actually embody.

An infinite steelmind would only grant speed - not useful in planet-crushing... And an infinite ironmind, that's more interesting, but I believe that there's a WoB you cannot gain so much "weight" (which is not actually gaining mass, but more like "gaining the effect of having gained mass") that you bend light or something, and to "crack a planet" would probably require something approaching that.

Interestingly, there's a semi-related WoB about who would win in a footrace, a steel/steel Compounder (infinite steelmind for speed!) or an F-steel/A-pewter Twinborn who could burn pewter Allomantically, gaining stamina and recovery for free.

You might say, "duh, how can you beat infinite speed in a foot race?", but Brandon thinks otherwise. He wasn't 100% sure but he felt that it'd be the latter, because the steel Compounder is still limited by wind resistance and would be physically wprn down by it (imagine wind erosion levels of discomfort) that the pewter burner could literally push through.

I think the specification of "a short race" being there in the question is to ensure the Compounder can't just run the non-compounding Twinborn dry in the steelmind department over time.

Quote

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by robardin

[+robardin]

34 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Also it took lots of people presumably to destroy Ashyn 

You get 2 Fullborns they will destroy a planet without breaking a sweat

I see you added this part after I started replying

Yes, we can assume it took more than one Surgebinder, even an Unchecked one, to destroy Ashyn. My point still stands, though: while a Fullborn could probably achieve the same effect as the Shattered Plains or whatever happened on Ashyn, it would take so long to do, essentially "by hand" because there's no external magical effect to destroy matter, I can't see one bothering. Even with infinite an steelmind, an infinite bronzemind to stay awake, and an infinite electrummind to stay on task and not get bored with the whole thing.

Also, that while we have some theoretical basis on which to posit what a Fullborn could do because we've seen Max-Tapped Feruchemy (MTF) in action, or close to it, we do NOT know what Max Surgebinding would look like, especially if given the ominous warnings about "unchecked" use now that Honor is gone.

Two Fullborns would halve the eon of time required to only a half-eon. And since the only two Fullborns we know or suspect to have ever existed were Rashek and Kelsier, I don't see them agreeing to work with each other on this, plus even Rashek was not looking to destroy Scadrial but to save it :).

...I just realized it'd probably more practical to use regular Allomancy in steel and iron plus the infinite ironminds to sling around massive hammers.

Edited March 15, 2021 by robardin

[Bejarden]

If you weigh something like 50000 tons and have a force of 10000000 pounds from pewter and go faster than the speed of sound for even one second draining all your metal minds you have saved up for years the planet will not survive the impact the impact will travel to the core then crack it

Excpecialy if you have 2 Fullborns standing on opposite poles of the planet

Kelsier is not confirmed Fullborn

Edited March 15, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If you weigh something like 50000 tons and have a force of 10000000 pounds from pewter and go faster than the speed of sound for even one second draining all your metal minds you have saved up for years the planet will not survive the impact

Excpecialy if you have 2 Fullborns standing on opposite poles of the planet

Kelsier is not confirmed Fullborn

I am saying what you are giving as "50,000 tons" of weight from an ironmind, or being able to do "10,000,000 pounds" (did you mean foot-pounds as a unit of energy?) with a pewtermind, exceed what is actually shown as possible to gain in one go from a metalmind, using my "endless pasta at Olive Garden" analogy. While you have access to a never-ending amount of it, the pasta just don't come in that size.

Edited March 15, 2021 by robardin

[Bejarden]

 it would all come out in one burst giving all that power in one single hit

sure you can’t way as much as a planet but you don’t need to the combination of all those powers will get you an unimaginable amount of strength 

Ive never looked this up on coppermind but other people have that can probably explain it better

[Kingsdaughter613]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

I am saying what you are giving as "50,000 tons" of weight from an ironmind, or being able to do "10,000,000 pounds" (did you mean foot-pounds as a unit of energy?) with a pewtermind, exceed what is actually shown as possible to gain in one go from a metalmind, using my "endless pasta at Olive Garden" analogy. While you have access to a never-ending amount of it, the pasta just don't come in that size.

You’re forgetting that the Fullborn will start by pushing themselves high in the air, then pulling themselves toward the planet, further increasing their speed.

Furthermore, assuming they know what they’re doing, a Fullborn can anchor a Bendalloy bubble to themselves, allowing them to be moving in compressed time. Connection probably helps here.

[+robardin]

19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You’re forgetting that the Fullborn will start by pushing themselves high in the air, then pulling themselves toward the planet, further increasing their speed.

Furthermore, assuming they know what they’re doing, a Fullborn can anchor a Bendalloy bubble to themselves, allowing them to be moving in compressed time. Connection probably helps here.

OK, so this discussion drifts into a slightly different context than I started out with - my original point being, while we know the upper bounds of what a Fullborn can do and how, we don't know what an "unchecked" Surgebinder is like - but we have been given more than a few hints that that is what ALL the Surgebinders on Roshar are, now that Honor is dead.

Leaving that as unambiguously RAFO territory, let's turn the discussion instead to "if a putative Rashek Jr. was a Fullborn with all sixteen Era 2 metals" - or perhaps, someone holding the Bands of Mourning with huge piles of all sixteen metals on hand to Compound with as needed - "and wanted to physically destroy Scadrial to the point where most of the people on it would choose to flee off-world, how would he go about it, and how long would it take him?"

I am admitting it'd probably be possible, but it wouldn't be quick. And that even with a mini-army of clones at his command, it'd still take time.

So let's say it's Rashek Jr. and his sixteen fanatically loyal Neo-Inquisitors spiked for Fullborn-ness, and he's decided to blow this popsicle joint called Scadrial after giving it the spanking it so sorely deserves for what they did to his father. What are they going to do?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Fullborn have access to both chromium and bendalloy.  They could lay down both bubbles and appear as though they are moving normally.  As any radiant or number of radiant squires try to get close they would move through chromium and get hit with that horrible nausea and vertigo.  Meanwhile as they are fighting that horrible sick feeling they are basically standing still just outside of the bendalloy bubble allowing the fullborn to fully utilize all of their other powers.  

Its still over kill to need anything like that.  A full born could crank up their body heat so high and become so heavy and move their hand so fast with the added durability of pewter that they could melt/punch right through plate and shove their hand into the knights chest cavity and then even further crank up their heat BBQing the radiants insides.  All the stormlight in a storm won't save a radiant from having nuclear levels of heat waving constantly through their vitals BBQing them in side of their shard plate... what would heat like that do to the spren used to make up the plate?  

Meanwhile.... I do think there are surges that could deal with the fullborn...

The obvious ones are soul casting, adhesion and cohesion.  The latter two surges would be making the terrain impossible to move through.  I don't think steel feruchemy would aid if the fullborn touches the ground even once and gets stuck their.  They might be able to pry themselves off eventually but by then the radiant should have been able to have the earth itself swallow the fullborn up, and then while the fullborn helplessly is stuck their and held in place the radiant can enter shadesmar and soulcast the fullborn and all of their metalminds into dust.  

That said a fullborn with a chunk of metal could ramp up their weight and become such a massive anchor that they could easily send a radiant flying even without that radiant armor being viable for steel or iron allomancy.  The fullborns ultimate trump cards have to be compounded heat and weight.  Both of which could theoretically end all of Roshar.  If you used all of your weight or heat through some duralumin fueled burning of metalminds you could become the largest nuke ever seen or even a very temporary blackhole for Roshar.  Planetary levels of destruction are possible for fullborns... granted the knight could just go to the cognitive to survive the suicide bombing of the fullborn.  Surely that level of destruction is beyond a fullborns ability to heal through even with gold compounding.  

[cometaryorbit]

I dont think planet cracking/black hole levels of weight Compounding are achievable, or even anything remotely close to that. Compounding still uses up metal, and I don't think one could practically consume that much metal. That's probably like... eating a Mount Everest sized pile of iron.

50,000 tons moving faster than the speed of sound isn't even *close* to enough to create Shattered Plains level devastation, much less destroy a planet.

50,000 metric tons (50,000,000 kg) at even 1,000 meters per second (about 3 times the speed of sound) is 1/2 mv^2 = 0.5 X 5 x 10^7 X 5 X 10^5 = 1.25 X 10^13 joules. That's much smaller than something like the Meteor Crater, Arizona or Tunguska impacts, and the Shattered Plains are *way* larger than Meteor Crater.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I dont think planet cracking/black hole levels of weight Compounding are achievable, or even anything remotely close to that. Compounding still uses up metal, and I don't think one could practically consume that much metal. That's probably like... eating a Mount Everest sized pile of iron.

50,000 tons moving faster than the speed of sound isn't even *close* to enough to create Shattered Plains level devastation, much less destroy a planet.

50,000 metric tons (50,000,000 kg) at even 1,000 meters per second (about 3 times the speed of sound) is 1/2 mv^2 = 0.5 X 5 x 10^7 X 5 X 10^5 = 1.25 X 10^13 joules. That's much smaller than something like the Meteor Crater, Arizona or Tunguska impacts, and the Shattered Plains are *way* larger than Meteor Crater.

should be possible, but not for more than like a millisecond. you would have to store up enormous amounts of weight, but that can be done in stages. you just have to tap it all at once. However, depending on how the weight thing truly works, you might not end up with a black hole. If you did, it would probably become self-sustaining, destroying everything.

[+robardin]

You know, I just realized this thread started in Nov 2021, well after the publication of (and board spoiler period ended for) Rhythm of War.

The only person we've seen so far endowed with "all ten Surges" of Roshar is Amaram at Thaylen Fields in Oathbringer after "bonding" with the Unmade Yelig-nar, though he didn't have very much time to practice using any of them (and it's unclear who ever would, with Yelig-nar, who "consumes" the host (i.e., we don't know what a putative maximum time with Y-N might be - or if like with Nightblood you could extend that time with an external store of Investiture, or if Y-N specifically consumes "souls"). He was beaten by a Windrunner and his squire - I think a fully trained Fullborn would be able to take him down.

The really chilling idea would be someone who could wield all the Surges with enough time to be deeply proficient in all of them. And if this matchup occurs after Honor is dead. Because what we see Tezim do as a "Bondsmith Unchained" in RoW is pretty terrifying.

If the Fullborn is not educated/prepared for it, and a Tezim equivalent could touch the Fullborn to form a Connection... Ooh baby. 

I mean, the Stormfather described what he did in "grounding" Sigzil and the other Windrunners to siphon their Stormlight away like so: Ishar Connected them to the ground. Essentially, their powers saw the stones as part of their body—and so tried to fill the ground with Stormlight as it fills their veins.

If a Feruchemist's powers "saw the stones of the earth as part of their body", that would wreak quite a bit of havoc on tapping a goldmind or ironmind... And would probably make an Allomancer's Steelpushing or Ironpulling suddenly and incredibly different. Like, Pushing off a coin on the ground to fly suddenly wouldn't work at all, because now it was the earth pushing against itself with the coin in between (would just squish the coin flat).

Edited March 30, 2022 by robardin

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

should be possible, but not for more than like a millisecond. you would have to store up enormous amounts of weight, but that can be done in stages. you just have to tap it all at once.

I don't think so. Yes, you could do it in stages, but that still wouldn't be enough.

There's probably a limit in how finely you can divide time intervals, otherwise you could make black holes even without Compounding (just store your weight for a second and then tap 10^30 times your weight for 10^-30 of a second).

Also, there is confirmed to be a diminishing returns aspect to tapping at high multipliers - if you store 50% weight or strength for 5 hours, you don't get 1 hour at 250%, but less time, since some of the stored attribute is used up to 'power' the multiplication.

That diminishing returns aspect might even be what prevents the super-high multiplier for super-short time thing as well... maybe there's a point at which the diminishing returns become so great you just can't tap at more than a certain rate (like, once you hit 1000x trying to go to higher rates uses up 100% of the extra energy...)