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Could Bavadin have been a Sleepless?


SirTraconus

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I was just watching the Shardcast from 2019 about Autonomy, and while they were talking about how they have all these varrious Avatars scattered across the Cosmere they questioned how that could be autonomous. They later bring up the possibility that Bavadin had been a Dragon, as a shapeshifter would feel more comfortable taking many forms and and having may personas, but it just seems much more like a sleepless to me. 

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Hmm.  Dragons, or at least the one we've actually met in canon (two if you count The Traveller short), still maintain a sense of personal gender, and we know that pre-ascension at least, Bavadin herself is always referenced as female (even if avatars span the gambit).  Id have to go back to the ones we've met to see if Sleepless seem to consider themselves gendered entities, but from I recall I dont think they do.  

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They could be but creating Avatars doesn't really require the Vessel to be a plural lifeform in any way. Avatars are created/born from the natural tendency of a large amount of Investiture left alone over a long period of time to gain sentience. Autonomy's Investiture permeates the entire Cosmere, as it all originally belonged to Adonalsium, who created the entire Cosmere, so not all of Autonomy-aligned Investiture is directly held by the Vessel. Wherever else there is a sufficient amount of Autonomy's Investiture, there is potential for it to become an Avatar of Autonomy. Same goes for every other Shard.

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ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

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16 minutes ago, Honorless said:

They could be but creating Avatars doesn't really require the Vessel to be a plural lifeform in any way. Avatars are created/born from the natural tendency of a large amount of Investiture left alone over a long period of time to gain sentience. Autonomy's Investiture permeates the entire Cosmere, as it all originally belonged to Adonalsium, who created the entire Cosmere, so not all of Autonomy-aligned Investiture is directly held by the Vessel. Wherever else there is a sufficient amount of Autonomy's Investiture, there is potential for it to become an Avatar of Autonomy. Same goes for every other Shard.

 

While I agree with all the individual things you said here, I dont think we can say that the formation of an Avatar is a natural/inevitable process, or to what degree the Avatar's control over the Power of Autonomy are separate (given the prevailing use of the Plural in Autonomiy's self-descriptions).  Personally (unless it's unique to the nature of Autonomy) I strongly doubt it's a natural process or else it would logically happen a whole lot more (especially when the Shard has no vessel, or an inexperienced one).  I mean, if the main Vessel doesnt actually have all the Investiture by default, then Rayse only shoved a portion of D&D in the Cognitive Realm and there would be Avatars developing on all the other worlds, right?

The implication of the Letters (to me, at least) was that Autonomy at the very least has the ability to influence the emergence of a new Avatar, possibly control over the emergence entirely.  It also both seemed to confirm the Collective/hive self-description, it also that they are independent enough to disagree about Hoid himself.  All that to say the internal dynamics between the Avatars of Autonomy are a mystery and likely more complex than we know, especially since we dont even know what the true definition of an "Avatar" is. It could mean that control of Autonomy's shard is distributed equally among all the Avatars as you say. Or it could be that Bavadin is in Command of a growing army of Godlings that she has empowered to the point of a permanent Ascension but less than the actual 1/16th of Infinity that she maintains.  Or something else entirely.     

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1 minute ago, Quantus said:

While I agree with all the individual things you said here, I dont think we can say that the formation of an Avatar is a natural/inevitable process, or to what degree the Avatar's control over the Power of Autonomy are separate (given the prevailing use of the Plural in Autonomiy's self-descriptions).  Personally (unless it's unique to the nature of Autonomy) I strongly doubt it's a natural process or else it would logically happen a whole lot more (especially when the Shard has no vessel, or an inexperienced one).  I mean, if the main Vessel doesnt actually have all the Investiture by default, then Rayse only shoved a portion of D&D in the Cognitive Realm and there would be Avatars developing on all the other worlds, right?

The implication of the Letters (to me, at least) was that Autonomy at the very least has the ability to influence the emergence of a new Avatar, possibly control over the emergence entirely.  It also both seemed to confirm the Collective/hive self-description, it also that they are independent enough to disagree about Hoid himself.  All that to say the internal dynamics between the Avatars of Autonomy are a mystery and likely more complex than we know, especially since we dont even know what the true definition of an "Avatar" is. It could mean that control of Autonomy's shard is distributed equally among all the Avatars as you say. Or it could be that Bavadin is in Command of a growing army of Godlings that she has empowered to the point of a permanent Ascension but less than the actual 1/16th of Infinity that she maintains.  Or something else entirely.     

It actually hasn't been that long since the Shattering of Adonalsium, only a few thousand years, that's nothing, geologically speaking. So it's quite possible that it is a completely natural and inevitable process.

Brandon's talked about Investiture gaining sentience multiple times. It's fortuitous that you brought up Devotion and Dominion. Odium Splintered them to prevent that very thing from happening and according to Khriss in the AU, it's happening anyway with the planet itself starting to become aware. 

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Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)
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CosmereQuestioner

The background to my question is this:

It was once stated by Mr Sanderson that "Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force.  If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience."  We also have that things like Nightblood that gained sentience because of crazy amounts of investiture.

My question then is:

"Is the reason that investiture has this tendency to lead to sentience caused by the fact that pre-Shattering Adonalsium had a goal/purpose/intent of bringing sentience to his universe."

(I guess this is in a way a 2 part question, because it assumes that Adonalsium actually HAD the intent of bringing sentience to his cosmere)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is part of the reason.  Good question!

General Signed Books 2016 (Oct. 12, 2016)

 

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I think Quantus is right about the gender thing. They reproduce asexually, so I don't see any need for gender.

Within the context of autonomy's many personas, it makes sense for her to be a sleepless. Each of her avatars would be a separate personality but part of the whole. I feel like the sleepless would not take up a shard but then the swarm  believe the others are traitors so...

There's this quote. Take from it what you will.

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Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)
#18 
Play/Pause
 

Questioner

I was wondering if Sleepless-- the Dysian Aimians-- if they could hold a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Could the Sleepless hold a Shard? Could they be a Vessel? Is what you're asking?

*hems and haws* There is nothing innate about the Shards that prevents any one with a-- I have to phrase this very carefully...

Non-humans can be Vessels. Non-humans have been vessels. Certain sapient creatures in the cosmere, could not be. But that's an asterisk, not the rule.

 

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

It actually hasn't been that long since the Shattering of Adonalsium, only a few thousand years, that's nothing, geologically speaking. So it's quite possible that it is a completely natural and inevitable process.

Brandon's talked about Investiture gaining sentience multiple times. It's fortuitous that you brought up Devotion and Dominion. Odium Splintered them to prevent that very thing from happening and according to Khriss in the AU, it's happening anyway with the planet itself starting to become aware. 

 

Im not arguing against the fact that Unattended Investiture can and will gain Intelligence, that's fairly settled; Seons themselves are a good example being accidents. 

What Im not as on board with is the assertion that any investiture of Autonomy (or Honor or Preservation, etc) would qualify as "Unattended" while there exists a Vessel of that corresponding shard and thus that the formation of Avatars is a purely natural process.  If the Vessels that Rasye killed only had command of the "local" piece of their Shards as you describe, then Rayse was only able to affect a finite amount of the D&D shards and there should be some Infinite "Rest of it" out there in the spiritual realm and/or other planets.  Which is not how it's been described at all.  

And on the other part of it where we really cant assume the relationship between Bavadin and the rest of the Avatar's, this WOB implies that they are not equal.   

 

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Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

 

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The way i see investiture assignment is this, take a handful of investiture. All 16 shards own 100% of said handful of investiture equally. 

Each shard can manipulate the whole handful in their own way. 

Just cause a shard blade is of Honor, does not mean Odium cannot manipulate it. Its just harder when another shard has put their hand in its creation. 

But unattended investiture, free game.

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6 hours ago, Thanatos said:

The way i see investiture assignment is this, take a handful of investiture. All 16 shards own 100% of said handful of investiture equally. 

Each shard can manipulate the whole handful in their own way. 

Just cause a shard blade is of Honor, does not mean Odium cannot manipulate it. Its just harder when another shard has put their hand in its creation. 

But unattended investiture, free game.

And what if that investiture used to be under the influence of another shard, and then that shard was splintered and now its investiture is just sitting there waiting to be picked up?

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Just like my shard blade example.

Honor has manipulated its investiture so it would be more difficult to manipulate. Harder still with Cultivation around. 

But it can be done. As the shard blade is twisted/manipulated by Honor, but made from Uncle Andy aka all 16 shards. 

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