Can Hoid hear the Rhythms?

[Enter a username]

What gave me this idea was Hoid's telling of the Wandersail in Way of Kings, specifically this paragraph:

Quote

The echoing music faded, but once again Hoid lifted his flute just as it grew too soft to hear. The melody grew solemn. Soft, quiet, like a lament for one who had passed. And yet it was edged with mystery, occasional quick bursts, hinting at secrets.

The Way of Kings, chapter 57, Wandersail

The Rhythm of the Lost has been described on numerous occasions as soft and slow, but with sharp, staccato notes. Of course, (Secret History spoilers)

Spoiler

with Hoid being a Mistborn, he could bronze to hear them without any Hoid stuff. (See this WoB.)

There isn't much evidence for it, but there isn't much evidence against it, either. So, can Hoid hear the Rhythms via some Hoid thing, or only through bronze, or am I just crazy?

[Gilphon]

I would be surprised if he couldn't hear them though Bronze- and really I'd argue that being the only Mistborn on Roshar (or anywhere, quite possibly) is the definition of 'some Hoid thing'. 

Could he do it without Bronze? Well, it's not completely impossible, but I don't tend to think that he'd be any better at it than any other humans. So I think he's most likely burning Bronze in the scene you quoted. 

Hmm. I wonder how the perfect pitch you get from Breaths interacts with Bronze and the Rhythms. 

[Quantus]

The Rhythms exist in the Spiritual Realm, so theoretically anyone with the appropriately heightened/tuned perceptions and/or realmic access could do it.  Singers can do it because they have a Gemheart, which is naturally formed through direct Leakage from the Spiritual Realm.  Rock's personally weirdness seems to come close, he mentions being able to Almost here rhythms or songs occasionally.  If Im not mistaken some other Radiants have made similarly vague statements, and [Redacted, unnecessary RoW example].

For Hoid, he could definitely do it with Allomancy, given their apparent flexibility he could probably pull it off with Breaths/Heightenings (especially given their innate sensory interactions), and with what could arguably be two of the most powerful Surges I would not be shocked to learn he could pull it off with some weird realmic Lightweaving (which is all about rhythms and waves and frequencies and whatnot).

Bronze is easily the most likely just because it's a confirmed ability of his and function of the system. 

[Bort]

I wonder how close soulcast bronze is to allomantic bronze.

[+robardin]

3 hours ago, Bort said:

I wonder how close soulcast bronze is to allomantic bronze.

Well, Allomantic bronze is a specific alloy of copper and other metals, most likely tin. We don't know the proportions, but Allomantic pewter is specified to be 91% tin and 9% lead, so perhaps Allomantic bronze is 91% copper and 9% tin (or lead)? (I wonder where that 91:9 ratio comes from...?)

In any case, when Supercharged Jasnah soulcast that enormous bronze plug to a broken section of wall at Thaylen Fields, did she have to imagine a specific proportion of metals for an alloy like bronze? It'd be cool if there were a Cosmere Default Bronze alloy, due to its magical properties as with fabrial construction, such that magically asking/telling an objectspren to "become bronze!" results in a universally ideal magical alloy.

[MGershone]

27 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well, Allomantic bronze is a specific alloy of copper and other metals, most likely tin. We don't know the proportions, but Allomantic pewter is specified to be 91% tin and 9% lead, so perhaps Allomantic bronze is 91% copper and 9% tin (or lead)? (I wonder where that 91:9 ratio comes from...?)

In any case, when Supercharged Jasnah soulcast that enormous bronze plug to a broken section of wall at Thaylen Fields, did she have to imagine a specific proportion of metals for an alloy like bronze? It'd be cool if there were a Cosmere Default Bronze alloy, due to its magical properties as with fabrial construction, such that magically asking/telling an objectspren to "become bronze!" results in a universally ideal magical alloy.

Since Soulcasting is totally based on Identity, it would probably depend on the alloy of bronze that Jasnah is most familiar with. If it happens to be similar to Scadrian bronze, then it would work.

[+robardin]

21 minutes ago, MGershone said:

Since Soulcasting is totally based on Identity, it would probably depend on the alloy of bronze that Jasnah is most familiar with. If it happens to be similar to Scadrian bronze, then it would work.

I don't think Soulcasting, as an external effect, depends on Jasnah's Identity; her Intention, yes, but when her Intention is to form bronze, her concept of bronze is probably not to the level of detail of a specific alloy. Even if she subconsciously imagined the bronze that she saw most often, and if that happened to be fabrial quality bronze, and if that happened to be the same alloy as Allomantic bronze (which seems likely), that still doesn't mean she'd be cognizant of X% copper and Y% whatever else, unless she'd personally done the metallurgy or read up on it at some point, which seems unlikely.

It is interesting, though, because when we see Shallan try very elementary and beginner Soulcasting, Jasnah explains that it's easiest to transform things into one of the Ten Essences, which is what Jasnah later does most of the time in her offensive Soulcasting at Thaylen Fields: creating stone steps and walls from thin air, oil slicks, fire to ignite said oil slicks, turning enemies into smoke or crystal (that is a "catching" effect!), those are all of the Ten Essences (she never turns someone into blood, now that would be memorable).

And Soulcaster fabrials that produce Soulcast meat for flangria use heliodors to make "flesh", exactly what kind of flesh I guess is up to the Soulcaster? And "metal" is one of the Ten Essences, which leaves a very broad field when telling a Shadesmar bead to transform.

I can just imagine Shallan trying to replicate the feat at some point:

"Become metal!"

"What kind of metal?"

"Something hard and showy... How about bronze!"

"That's an alloy. How much copper should I use? 91%, maybe?"

"Whuh, ninety-one percent? Why... Oh never mind, I hadn't thought much about it, I guess that's fine."

"What about the other 9%? Tin? Lead? Nickel?"

"I dunno, surprise me."

"I... I will change. And you'll like the surprise!"

How does Jasnah do this without an exhausting negotiation each time? Shallan wondered to herself.

Edited January 22, 2021 by robardin

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

"Become metal!"

"What kind of metal?"

"Something hard and showy... How about bronze!"

"That's an alloy. How much copper should I use? 91%, maybe?"

"Whuh, ninety-one percent? Why... Oh never mind, I hadn't thought much about it, I guess that's fine."

"What about the other 9%? Tin? Lead? Nickel?"

"I dunno, surprise me."

"I... I will change. And you'll like the surprise!"

Storm it, I wish I had one more rep point for today.

[MGershone]

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

I don't think Soulcasting, as an external effect, depends on Jasnah's Identity; her Intention, yes, but when her Intention is to form bronze, her concept of bronze is probably not to the level of detail of a specific alloy. Even if she subconsciously imagined the bronze that she saw most often, and if that happened to be fabrial quality bronze, and if that happened to be the same alloy as Allomantic bronze (which seems likely), that still doesn't mean she'd be cognizant of X% copper and Y% whatever else, unless she'd personally done the metallurgy or read up on it at some point, which seems unlikely.

This is basically what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. What I meant was she'd likely create whatever bronze is common on Roshar automatically.

[+robardin]

7 minutes ago, MGershone said:

This is basically what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. What I meant was she'd likely create whatever bronze is common on Roshar automatically.

Right, I got that; I was pointing out that "whatever bronze is common on Roshar", in terms of having a Shadesmar bead convert itself into that form, implies a latent alloy percentage that doesn't need Jasnah to specify it (though she probably could force one if she bothered, at the cost of extra Stormlight and concentration). The bead just follows a kind of "cognitive grooved pattern" for forming bronze that is probably going to align with the Allomantic alloy for reasons of underlying Cosmere magic.

In short - yes, I think the bronze that Jasnah summoned up to plug a wall in Thaylen City would be safely, even ideally suited for Allomantic Seeking, even though she didn't do anything to make that the case.

Edited January 22, 2021 by robardin

[MGershone]

Just now, robardin said:

Right, I got that; I was pointing out that "whatever bronze is common on Roshar", in terms of having a Shadesmar bead convert itself into that form, implies a latent alloy percentage that doesn't need Jasnah to specify it (though she probably could force one if she bothered, at the cost of extra Stormlight and concentration)' the bead just follows a kind of "cognitive grooved pattern" for forming bronze that is probably going to align with the Allomantic alloy for reasons of underlying Cosmere magic.

In short - yes, I think the bronze that Jasnah summoned up to plug a wall in Thaylen City would be safely, even ideally suited for Allomantic Seeking, even though she didn't do anything to make that the case.

ok. That makes sense. Sorry