Pratyaksh

16 tones

40 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, KSub said:

Also, there are not 10 God metals for shardblades. They are all a blend of honor and cultivations metal, probably all the same ratio as they all appear to be identical in form and function.

8 hours ago, KSub said:

I'm going to keep thinking of them as uniform until Brandon gives me a reason to think otherwise.

In the WoB @LewsTherinTelescope quotes, Brandon says we’re looking at different ratios of the same two Shards’ metals. So, we can assume different ratios.

However, if we consider (and dramatically oversimplify) real-world metalworking, saying the Shardblades are all made out of the same metal could be viable in the sense that we say lots of things are made out of steel that have entirely different compositions, characteristics, and functions. But they still have those different compositions, characteristics, and functions, which will likely become apparent if anyone analyzes this. They can be usefully thought of as a monolith, but they’re not uniform.

More detailed, completely nontechnical consideration of Blades’ metal:

Spoiler

 

To a layperson, any weapon made with a carbon-iron composite metal might be indistinguishable, as it would be lighter and less brittle than pure iron.

Only someone being more observant – and more likely, someone specifically knowledgeable about weapons, and potentially about their craft – might pay attention to distinct characteristics like hardness (will it hold an edge?), toughness (does it survive a beating?), and tensile strength (does it bounce back after flexing?). Because different alloys of steel are ideal for disparate purposes, to a person making or using a steel blade, each alloy is considered and handled differently (from specific notations of ratios to generic terms like “high-carbon” or “stainless” steel).

With Shardblades, they have long been looked at and treated as all examples of the same, sacrosanct, thing, so existing research is unlikely to have considered how the blades differ so much as how to replicate them. Also, with nobody in-world able to make them, and no sign of Radiants having compared and contrasted blades in the brief time Radiants have been gathering, the expertise on varying characteristics is lacking.

Shardblades might all be safely and generically considered “Shardmetals” just as many metals are considered steel. But just because nobody seems to have looked at differences between the Orders’ blades doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be useful, and possibly suggest certain best-practice uses based on order. For anyone trying to actually study or predict properties of these weapons, it’s likely at least each order’s Blade would need to more accurately be thought of as a different alloy.

Again, though, while each alloy is its own thing, there’s probably no downside to anybody who isn’t analyzing them looking at them as if they’re the same. So far, people in-world have mostly considered dead Shardblades, particularly certain overarching properties like the ability to cut stone or sever souls. And with those as outstanding common abilities, it’s kind of hard to test what they might do more subtly, let alone differently from one another.

 

30 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Like if you were able to make a perfectly out of phase electrical signal on a phone line, it would go silent, as long as you could make the signal equally strong as the original. And I think that's where the limits of just singing an antitone lies: one human is not going to be able to overpower the Voice of a Shard. If Odium was paying attention to Moash and knew what was going on, he would almost certainly be able to overpower Navani's initial singing of the antitone and reinvigorate moash's emptiness.

That is an excellent hypothesis. Overpowering a Shard should take more power just like interfering with any other signal requires equivalent strength. I do wonder, though, if the vessel would limit Odium’s ability to bring his power to bear. Like, Odium might be impossible for even an invigorated, Sibling-supported Navani to counter in Taravangian’s form, yet be possible to counter if he were limited to what he could channel through Moash. The same way he seemed faceable in Dalinar’s visions until he showed more of his power.

Edited by Kyn
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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

It's destructive interference, if we go down a mild quantum rabbit-hole, then it's related to how matter and antimatter destructively interfere and release energy in other quantum fields (such as electromagnetic radiation i.e. photons I.E LIGHT, HMMM).

So if Connection has vibration related to the Intent of the Investiture being transmitted through it, then making a perfectly out-of-phase vibration would silence the Investiture coming through it, halting any ability reliant on that Connection.

Like if you were able to make a perfectly out of phase electrical signal on a phone line, it would go silent, as long as you could make the signal equally strong as the original. And I think that's where the limits of just singing an antitone lies: one human is not going to be able to overpower the Voice of a Shard. If Odium was paying attention to Moash and knew what was going on, he would almost certainly be able to overpower Navani's initial singing of the antitone and reinvigorate moash's emptiness.

Exactly,and I agree with you at the end. I was mostly pointing out that Moash wasn't "barely hurt" by the Anti-Odium Tone.

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5 hours ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Moash specifically mentions in chapter 111 that the tone pushed away his Connection to Odium. The one which had taken away his pain/emotions. The Pure Anti-Tone of Odium completely, though temporarily, removed what Odium had done for and to him.

I think he misinterpret this - because Anti-Tone was used to remove Voidlight from Sibling Fabrial System and restore protection. This happen practicly in the same moment, so he thought it was the sound, witch hurts him, but Connection was repel by Tower Protection System.

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On 21/01/2021 at 11:02 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Harmony would drop Harmony.

But Harmony could be separated in too shards and it'd be very hard to separate them differently than Preservation and Ruin

Quote

So I’d think Harmony’s tone would be more than a simple blend of the two, but contain elements of both.

Also, mixed to are not a simple blend of the two

On 23/01/2021 at 4:16 AM, Halyo_Alex said:

It's destructive interference, if we go down a mild quantum rabbit-hole, then it's related to how matter and antimatter destructively interfere and release energy in other quantum fields (such as electromagnetic radiation i.e. photons I.E LIGHT, HMMM).

Destructive interference of sound is really not same thing as matter-antimatter annihilation. The former happen even if the waves are just passing through each other without interacting while the latter is an interaction, which mean it happens after a random time that's long enough for compound like positronium to exist (an exotic atom formed of an electron and one positron)

On 23/01/2021 at 4:46 AM, Kyn said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

To a layperson, any weapon made with a carbon-iron composite metal might be indistinguishable, as it would be lighter and less brittle than pure iron.

Only someone being more observant – and more likely, someone specifically knowledgeable about weapons, and potentially about their craft – might pay attention to distinct characteristics like hardness (will it hold an edge?), toughness (does it survive a beating?), and tensile strength (does it bounce back after flexing?). Because different alloys of steel are ideal for disparate purposes, to a person making or using a steel blade, each alloy is considered and handled differently (from specific notations of ratios to generic terms like “high-carbon” or “stainless” steel).

With Shardblades, they have long been looked at and treated as all examples of the same, sacrosanct, thing, so existing research is unlikely to have considered how the blades differ so much as how to replicate them. Also, with nobody in-world able to make them, and no sign of Radiants having compared and contrasted blades in the brief time Radiants have been gathering, the expertise on varying characteristics is lacking.

Shardblades might all be safely and generically considered “Shardmetals” just as many metals are considered steel. But just because nobody seems to have looked at differences between the Orders’ blades doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be useful, and possibly suggest certain best-practice uses based on order. For anyone trying to actually study or predict properties of these weapons, it’s likely at least each order’s Blade would need to more accurately be thought of as a different alloy.

Again, though, while each alloy is its own thing, there’s probably no downside to anybody who isn’t analyzing them looking at them as if they’re the same. So far, people in-world have mostly considered dead Shardblades, particularly certain overarching properties like the ability to cut stone or sever souls. And with those as outstanding common abilities, it’s kind of hard to test what they might do more subtly, let alone differently from one another.

 

 

No. First people would definitely be able to see the difference between a steel sword and a cast iron sword because cast iron is much less dense than steel (between 6-7 for cast iron and between 7.8-7.9 for steel, this is because cast iron contain much more carbon than steel).

Second neither iron, steel nor most version of cast iron are brittle unless you specifically made them to be that way. And brittle is a qualification of how the material is destroyed when you put to much strength on them: glass is brittle so it breaks iron is not so it tears, it's not a scale. Maybe you meant iron is easier to dent?

Third steel and iron have basically the same density.

Of course this don't actually contradict your point, most people will not see the difference between two types of steel.

On 23/01/2021 at 4:46 AM, Kyn said:

That is an excellent hypothesis. Overpowering a Shard should take more power just like interfering with any other signal requires equivalent strength. I do wonder, though, if the vessel would limit Odium’s ability to bring his power to bear. Like, Odium might be impossible for even an invigorated, Sibling-supported Navani to counter in Taravangian’s form, yet be possible to counter if he were limited to what he could channel through Moash. The same way he seemed faceable in Dalinar’s visions until he showed more of his power.

Taravangian? What is that "form" your talking about?

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

No. First people would definitely be able to see the difference between a steel sword and a cast iron sword because cast iron is much less dense than steel (between 6-7 for cast iron and between 7.8-7.9 for steel, this is because cast iron contain much more carbon than steel).

Second neither iron, steel nor most version of cast iron are brittle unless you specifically made them to be that way. And brittle is a qualification of how the material is destroyed when you put to much strength on them: glass is brittle so it breaks iron is not so it tears, it's not a scale. Maybe you meant iron is easier to dent?

Third steel and iron have basically the same density.

Of course this don't actually contradict your point, most people will not see the difference between two types of steel.

Ah, thank you.

You’re right, I should definitely be more precise. I realize that iron weapons not being usable as thin and light as steel doesn’t make an equivalent mass of iron denser, but iron weapons tending to be thicker is certainly not evident from my wording. And absolutely, “brittle” refers to high-carbon steels, not much more malleable pure iron, so thanks for keeping my mishmashed allusions from misleading anyone.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Taravangian? What is that "form" your talking about?

I genuinely have no idea. I don’t know if, let alone how, Taravangian’s body not being left behind affects Odium presenting himself in physical form, if that’s what he does. I was just assuming that if Odium can channel power through his vessel Taravangian’s body even after it has been possibly subsumed into the Shard, that might permit for a purer expression of his power than if Odium tried to work his abilities through another person. But it’s a speculation about what could be different about Odium’s power, given certain human channels, not an actual theory of how Odium physically manifests or what became of Taravangian’s physical form.

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On 1/21/2021 at 5:02 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Harmony would drop Harmony. And Harmonium isn’t an alloy of Atium and Lerasium, but something different. So I’d think Harmony’s tone would be more than a simple blend of the two, but contain elements of both.

It’s a “Harmony”

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Just now, TheOneEyedFox said:

It’s a “Harmony”

Exactly.

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On 1/21/2021 at 7:56 AM, basement_boi said:

I don’t think you would be able to take Breath without consent. Stormlight is designed to be moving, changing, always needing to be used. Breath, however, is keyed to your Identity. That is also why a Larkin presumably can’t steal Breath. Besides, Navani never uses the tones for anything but moving Investiture between gemstones, not people.

...could a leecher steal breath? I think in the coppermind there's a WoB where he says that stealing breath would be fairly effective...

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My assumption is that Harmony is not what we'd consider a new tone. Whatever tone Harmony has is both a combination of Ruin and Preservation AND something new, similar to how towerlight and warlight are both combinations, but more, likely with properties not entirely defined from either.

In this case, the catalyst would've been Sazed. Likely a more spiritual catalyst rather than the physical catalyst of making a tone that allows them to combine.

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On 4/6/2021 at 6:49 AM, IAmTheStick said:

...could a leecher steal breath? I think in the coppermind there's a WoB where he says that stealing breath would be fairly effective...

A leecher does not steal Investiture, they like, remove it from objects or people. You might be able to remove them or temporarily make them ineffective, but they wouldn't steal them.

 

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1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

A leecher does not steal Investiture, they like, remove it from objects or people. You might be able to remove them or temporarily make them ineffective, but they wouldn't steal them.

 

Sorry, leeches, you know? I just... yeah. *remove/dissipate/whateveritscalled

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On 1/22/2021 at 0:24 PM, KSub said:

Interesting discussion.

Relating to the Rosharan music scales. 10 is significant on Roshar so they just look for 10 in everything. The 3 note scale could refer to the pure tones or just a nod to them. 12 is what we use, it's mathematically pleasing because it can be divided by 2,3,4 and 6. IRL there is music written in microtones, so the scale is divided into more notes. King gizzard and the lizard wizard are a notable modern band who use this. If you have ever heard middle eastern or South asian music and thought this sounds off, it's because it's played in microtones and you just aren't used to hearing those notes.

Now as for how many pure tones there could be, we know that Adonalsium could have been divided in different ways. I think there is a pure tone for every way that Adonalsium can be divided. Or a better way to say that, every form of investiture vibrates at a different frequency and there is a note that corresponds to each frequency. Those notes are only pure tones if there is a corresponding form of investiture available. So, currently there would be 17 if atium and lerasium are still out there. Harmonys investiture would be like 2 overlapping sine waves of Ruin and preservation frequency.

Also, there are not 10 God metals for shardblades. They are all a blend of honor and cultivations metal, probably all the same ratio as they all appear to be identical in form and function.

Here's a writeup I made that discusses some of the mathematics behind musical notes.  Some of.

 

 

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:45 AM, Honorless said:

Tone one can manipulate their own Breath but not others, you can give, but not take (I'm using the word "take" to mean taking forcefully, so excluding the act of receiving from the giver).

Is that how Vasher manipulates his Divine Breath, and/or how he got the little girl’s memories to change?! :blink:

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11 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Is that how Vasher manipulates his Divine Breath, and/or how he got the little girl’s memories to change?! :blink:

Pretty sure he's just a master of Intent in that regard. But maybe that involves speaking at a specific pitch (the tone of Endowment).

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I believe all the shards have their own tone, god metal, spren, and etc. The power set of a god might be determined on the flavor of the planet that you invest in, which is why Scadrial is metals, Roshar is bonds and etc, they each have their own flavor of ice creams of those flavors, but they still are of that ice cream.

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