16 tones

[Pratyaksh]

In row navani talked about tones and how some cultures thought there are 16 tones. What if there are in total 16 tones one for each of the shards and each one able to control investiture.

I.e., tone of endowment to take breaths without concent, etc.

[Koloss17]

Hmmmm. That’s a possibility, but I dunno about taking breaths without consent. I think it would really break down the magic system and endowment’s control over her people if that were to happen. Since pure tone stuff is hard, but with the right recourses, not too complex, once that would be found out, Endowment’s whole specialness is thrown out the window. Not only do I think that Endowment wouldn’t want that, I also think it wouldn’t work literarily. But yeah, 16 shards, 16 tones.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Hmmmm. That’s a possibility, but I dunno about taking breaths without consent. I think it would really break down the magic system and endowment’s control over her people if that were to happen. Since pure tone stuff is hard, but with the right recourses, not too complex, once that would be found out, Endowment’s whole specialness is thrown out the window. Not only do I think that Endowment wouldn’t want that, I also think it wouldn’t work literarily. But yeah, 16 shards, 16 tones.

Would there be fifteen now? Or 17? Because we should have a pure tone of Harmony.

[basement_boi]

I don’t think you would be able to take Breath without consent. Stormlight is designed to be moving, changing, always needing to be used. Breath, however, is keyed to your Identity. That is also why a Larkin presumably can’t steal Breath. Besides, Navani never uses the tones for anything but moving Investiture between gemstones, not people.

Edited January 21, 2021 by basement_boi

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, Pratyaksh said:

In row navani talked about tones and how some cultures thought there are 16 tones. What if there are in total 16 tones one for each of the shards and each one able to control investiture.

I.e., tone of endowment to take breaths without concent, etc.

Hmm... I don't remember any mention of 16 in tones or Rhythms, I did keep an eye out for that number. She mentioned 10, 12 & 3:

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The Alethi traditionally used a ten-note scale—though it was more accurately two five-note quintaves. This was right and orderly, and the greatest and most famous compositions were all in this scale. However, it wasn’t the only scale in use around the world. There were dozens. The Thaylens, for example, preferred a twelve-note scale. A strange number, but the twelve steps were mathematically pleasing.
In researching the tone the tuning fork created, she’d discovered something incredible. Anciently, people had used a three-note scale, and a few of the compositions remained. The tone that drew Stormlight was the first of the three notes from this ancient scale.

Khriss does mention the no. 16 in the Ars Arcanum though, while talking about the 10 Essences "on Roshar there are considered to be ten elements; not the traditional four or sixteen, depending upon local tradition." (I wonder if the traditional 4 is the same as the classical 4 elements: air, water, earth, fire)

 

I really like the idea of the pure tone of Endowment being able to draw out Breath from a person. Raboniel theorized that the Lights follow the Tones because they resemble the voice of the god Commanding it.

But Navani ponders this:

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"Voice of Lights. Voice for Lights. If I speak for the Lights, then I must express their desires. If Light is Investiture, and all Investiture is deity, and deity has Intent, then Light must have Intent."

Which means Breath must also have Intent: Endowment. And Intent is fundamental to Investiture, even to the tones and Rhythms. Someone couldn't unknowingly hum a Pure Tone to manipulate Light, they must Intend to do so or use an instrument created by someone, in which case the person who made the instrument provides the necessary Intent (We see this in action with Navani expelling Voidlight from Urithiru). So I think it's more likely that with Endowment's Pure Tone one can manipulate their own Breath but not others, you can give, but not take (I'm using the word "take" to mean taking forcefully, so excluding the act of receiving from the giver).

Edited January 21, 2021 by Honorless

[basement_boi]

If there was a Shard of Drunkeness, it’s Light would be Budlight!

[Gilphon]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Would there be fifteen now? Or 17? Because we should have a pure tone of Harmony.

Harmony's tone is probably just a combination of Ruin and Perservation's tones. So I guess it depends on what extent you think Ruin and Preservation are still separable. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Harmony's tone is probably just a combination of Ruin and Perservation's tones. So I guess it depends on what extent you think Ruin and Preservation are still separable. 

Harmony would drop Harmony. And Harmonium isn’t an alloy of Atium and Lerasium, but something different. So I’d think Harmony’s tone would be more than a simple blend of the two, but contain elements of both.

[Gilphon]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Harmony would drop Harmony. And Harmonium isn’t an alloy of Atium and Lerasium, but something different. So I’d think Harmony’s tone would be more than a simple blend of the two, but contain elements of both.

If you're making that argument, to me that would mean that there are now 15 tones; that it is no longer possible to separate Harmony's tone into Ruin and Preservation.

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

If you're making that argument, to me that would mean that there are now 15 tones; that it is no longer possible to separate Harmony's tone into Ruin and Preservation.

Harmony can manifest Atium and Lerasium if he wanted though, and Mists vary between Preservation and Ruin. That’s where I’m leaning toward 17, because there are 17 Godmetals now.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Harmony can manifest Atium and Lerasium if he wanted though, and Mists vary between Preservation and Ruin. That’s where I’m leaning toward 17, because there are 17 Godmetals now.

I mean, there's a lot more than that, since Shardblades and Plate are their own/ten different godmetals in presumably a similar vein to ettmetal.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, there's a lot more than that, since Shardblades and Plate are their own/ten different godmetals in presumably a similar vein to ettmetal.

I believe those were described as alloys. Harmonium is a different element from Atium and Lerasium.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I believe those were described as alloys. Harmonium is a different element from Atium and Lerasium.

He's referred to it as an alloy on occasion, but it's not quite correct.

Quote

...

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

[+Bzhydack]

13 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I believe those were described as alloys. Harmonium is a different element from Atium and Lerasium.

Yes, is different, isnt simply Atium and Lerasium combined, but is possible to divide Ettmetal to Atium and Lerasium

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Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)
#8 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

 

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Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)
#15 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Questioner

If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined?

Brandon Sanderson

It's different after the Shards combined.

Questioner

If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you would-- It actually has become a different--

Questioner

Can't be split?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means.

I have theory that Scadrians would try to get Lerasium and Atium from Ettmetal and this will propel Quantum Physics on Scadrial and they would need Particle accelerator to get those elements.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Bzhydack

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Yes, is different, isnt simply Atium and Lerasium combined, but is possible to divide Ettmetal to Atium and Lerasium

 

I have theory that Scadrians would try to get Lerasium and Atium from Ettmetal and this will propel Quantum Physics on Scadrial and they would need Particle accelerator to get those elements.

In other words, it’s a different element. But if you manipulate it on the atomic level you can transform it into a different element. Which we’ve done IRL.

[Honorless]

Oh hey, Preservation created humans on Scadrial, doesn't that mean his Investiture provided the spark of life within them

Could you have used Preservation's Pure Tone to kill Scadrians?

[KSub]

Interesting discussion.

Relating to the Rosharan music scales. 10 is significant on Roshar so they just look for 10 in everything. The 3 note scale could refer to the pure tones or just a nod to them. 12 is what we use, it's mathematically pleasing because it can be divided by 2,3,4 and 6. IRL there is music written in microtones, so the scale is divided into more notes. King gizzard and the lizard wizard are a notable modern band who use this. If you have ever heard middle eastern or South asian music and thought this sounds off, it's because it's played in microtones and you just aren't used to hearing those notes.

Now as for how many pure tones there could be, we know that Adonalsium could have been divided in different ways. I think there is a pure tone for every way that Adonalsium can be divided. Or a better way to say that, every form of investiture vibrates at a different frequency and there is a note that corresponds to each frequency. Those notes are only pure tones if there is a corresponding form of investiture available. So, currently there would be 17 if atium and lerasium are still out there. Harmonys investiture would be like 2 overlapping sine waves of Ruin and preservation frequency.

Also, there are not 10 God metals for shardblades. They are all a blend of honor and cultivations metal, probably all the same ratio as they all appear to be identical in form and function.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, KSub said:

Also, there are not 10 God metals for shardblades. They are all a blend of honor and cultivations metal, probably all the same ratio as they all appear to be identical in form and function.

The answer is apparently a big "it's complicated". The ratios are different enough you could reasonably call them ten different metals (and he thinks this is the terminology we would prefer to use in the fandom), but similar enough they could still be considered the same metal reasonably (and this seems to be the terminology he prefers to use himself). And each of these metals is considered its own thing (whichever way you choose to define how many of these metals there are), rather than directly a blend of existing god metals.

Quote

Alpharho

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Alpharho

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

Edited January 22, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[KSub]

20 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The answer is apparently a big "it's complicated". The ratios are different enough you could reasonably call them ten different metals (and he thinks this is the terminology we would prefer to use in the fandom), but similar enough they could still be considered the same metal reasonably (and this seems to be the terminology he prefers to use himself). And each of these metals is considered its own thing (whichever way you choose to define how many of these metals there are), rather than directly a blend of existing god metals.

Mothers milk in a cup, Kinslayer!

That must be the worst WoB I have seen.

Us: Are the sharblades different metals?

Brandon: no and they are the same alloy... or not. They have a different ratio of metals but they are the same but people in world would call them different. They are really the same but I would call them different but they can't be different. I think you would call them different.

Me: WHAT?!

 

So the spren are different proportions of honor and cultivation, so their blades are as well. They can not be separated so they are not an alloy but we would call them an alloy.

I'm going to keep thinking of them as uniform until Brandon gives me a reason to think otherwise.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, KSub said:

Brandon: no and they are the same alloy... or not. They have a different ratio of metals but they are the same but people in world would call them different. They are really the same but I would call them different but they can't be different. I think you would call them different.

Seriously, lol. Wish he'd give us a term besides "alloy", to try and avoid the misconception that it's actually physically an alloy. But then that raises questions over what it is if not, and how they can simultaneously be the same elements and not the same elements and my head hurts.

[Knight Oblivion]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh hey, Preservation created humans on Scadrial, doesn't that mean his Investiture provided the spark of life within them

Could you have used Preservation's Pure Tone to kill Scadrians?

This is my thought, maybe Preservation's tone either kills or removes sapience from Scadrians.

[KSub]

16 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

This is my thought, maybe Preservation's tone either kills or removes sapience from Scadrians.

I think this is a stormlight, errr light specific thing, due to the easy access to stormlight. We need a word for any light.

And as someone else mentioned we haven't seen it pulled from a person.

If not it would be possible to disable everyone in the cosmere with a sound. You could destroy a shard. Hmm, could this be in some way related to the dawnshards? 

[+Bzhydack]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh hey, Preservation created humans on Scadrial, doesn't that mean his Investiture provided the spark of life within them

Could you have used Preservation's Pure Tone to kill Scadrians?

Dont think so. Even very invested by Odium Moash was just barely hurt by Anti-Odium Tone. Fused and Regals practicly didnt feel it, when Sibling was vibrating with it. And we didnt see Light pull out from people.

I think Anti-Preservation Tone would cause Scadrians just headache or nausea. Maybe more intensive for Metalborn.

[Knight Oblivion]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Dont think so. Even very invested by Odium Moash was just barely hurt by Anti-Odium Tone. Fused and Regals practicly didnt feel it, when Sibling was vibrating with it. And we didnt see Light pull out from people.

I think Anti-Preservation Tone would cause Scadrians just headache or nausea. Maybe more intensive for Metalborn.

Moash specifically mentions in chapter 111 that the tone pushed away his Connection to Odium. The one which had taken away his pain/emotions. The Pure Anti-Tone of Odium completely, though temporarily, removed what Odium had done for and to him.

[Halyo_Alex]

40 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Moash specifically mentions in chapter 111 that the tone pushed away his Connection to Odium. The one which had taken away his pain/emotions. The Pure Anti-Tone of Odium completely, though temporarily, removed what Odium had done for and to him.

It's destructive interference, if we go down a mild quantum rabbit-hole, then it's related to how matter and antimatter destructively interfere and release energy in other quantum fields (such as electromagnetic radiation i.e. photons I.E LIGHT, HMMM).

So if Connection has vibration related to the Intent of the Investiture being transmitted through it, then making a perfectly out-of-phase vibration would silence the Investiture coming through it, halting any ability reliant on that Connection.

Like if you were able to make a perfectly out of phase electrical signal on a phone line, it would go silent, as long as you could make the signal equally strong as the original. And I think that's where the limits of just singing an antitone lies: one human is not going to be able to overpower the Voice of a Shard. If Odium was paying attention to Moash and knew what was going on, he would almost certainly be able to overpower Navani's initial singing of the antitone and reinvigorate moash's emptiness.