Are Copperminds cheating?

[Rushu42]

There's a very important question that we need to settle about the use of Copperminds. Is using one to assist you on a test, or in a competition such as Jeopardy, unethical? 

Obviously, there's nothing currently in the rules of these activities about using copperminds, but if they existed there would be. Would the rules allow it as the equivalent of having a particularly good memory, or would they ban it as the equivalent of looking up the answers?

I'm very interested in your opinions.

[Quantus]

Assuming we lived in a world were such magics were both possible and commonly known, I think Copperminds (and mental augmentation Spikes) would be the equivalent of Performance Enhancing Drugs.  Or those Ferrings would compete in their own separate division in such sports/games.

[NameIess]

49 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

There's a very important question that we need to settle about the use of Copperminds. Is using one to assist you on a test, or in a competition such as Jeopardy, unethical? 

Using a coppermind on a test would be fine, in my opinion. The point of a test is to make sure that you know the subject and can apply your knowledge, and using a coppermind to remember is no different than memorizing the information through normal methods. Using a coppermind in a competitive game show against people who don’t have access to copperminds would definitely be wrong.

[Quantus]

24 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Using a coppermind on a test would be fine, in my opinion. The point of a test is to make sure that you know the subject and can apply your knowledge, and using a coppermind to remember is no different than memorizing the information through normal methods. Using a coppermind in a competitive game show against people who don’t have access to copperminds would definitely be wrong.

I disagree, to me a Coppermind is a lot more like the 1/2 page "equation cheat sheet" that some but not all of my engineering classes allowed us to prepare and carry into the exams.  Because, like a coppermind, it only proves you knew the material the day before when you were doing your studying, not that you learned it enough to actually make it stick long term.  The logic of the professors that allowed it was that you would never actually be asked to do professional work absent any reference materials.   

 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I disagree, to me a Coppermind is a lot more like the 1/2 page "equation cheat sheet" that some but not all of my engineering classes allowed us to prepare and carry into the exams.  Because, like a coppermind, it only proves you knew the material the day before when you were doing your studying, not that you learned it enough to actually make it stick long term.  The logic of the professors that allowed it was that you would never actually be asked to do professional work absent any reference materials.   

But it does prove that you know the material long-term, because it’s all stored in your coppermind. You can’t carry a piece of paper around with you wherever you go, but you can wear copper bracelets everywhere. I do agree that over-relying on copperminds would be a bad thing, but for memorizing random facts that you don’t have to use daily, they’re perfect.

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But it does prove that you know the material long-term, because it’s all stored in your coppermind. You can’t carry a piece of paper around with you wherever you go, but you can wear copper bracelets everywhere. I do agree that over-relying on copperminds would be a bad thing, but for memorizing random facts that you don’t have to use daily, they’re perfect.

Oh, I think they are amazing, and are in most ways better than any of hte the RL paper or electronic equivalents.  But if we're talking about a Jeapordy-style test of your actual ability to Memorize and Recall facts, a coppermind is still external storage like any other media recording.  And Id argue that you can loose a chunk of Copper just as easily as a notebook; you can mitigate that by making it a ring or necklace, but those still be lost, damaged, and/or stolen.

[Mage]

When I saw a reference to this thread in the YKYASW thread I thought that you were talking about coppermind as in the wiki, and I was quite confused . But now I understand, and I would think that it would be the same as using notes on a test. On some tests where notes are allowed I say it would be legal, but on something like jeopardy I think it would be cheating.

In reference to what @Nameless was saying about copperminds being the same as long term knowledge, I disagree, because a lot of the time you learn facts in order to understand processes, and make connections that go deeper than just being able to rattle off facts, and I don't think that copperminds could give you that deeper understanding.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Mage

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Oh, I think they are amazing, and are in most ways better than any of hte the RL paper or electronic equivalents.  But if we're talking about a Jeapordy-style test of your actual ability to Memorize and Recall facts, a coppermind is still external storage like any other media recording.  And Id argue that you can loose a chunk of Copper just as easily as a notebook; you can mitigate that by making it a ring or necklace, but those still be lost, damaged, and/or stolen.

Like I said, if you were competing against other people without copperminds, it would undoubtedly be wrong. Using copperminds as a crutch to do everything would hurt your ability to do things quickly, so you would need to learn some things without using them, but if, for example, you were going to have a test on the history of the sugar industry or some similar subject that you will almost certainly not need to remember often, using a coppermind would be totally justified.

[Aspiring Writer]

Guys, just imagine that instead of a Coppermind, it's a phone, and that will be a fairly good comparison.

[Voidspawn]

But with a Coppermind, you actually had to learn it.

[Rushu42]

5 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Guys, just imagine that instead of a Coppermind, it's a phone, and that will be a fairly good comparison.

Right, but I don't think it's a direct parallel. As Voidspawn said, you do have to have learned the information ahead of time. And it's an innate talent - if someone had a photographic memory, would it be cheating to use that?

[NameIess]

22 minutes ago, Mage said:

In reference to what @Nameless was saying about copperminds being the same as long term knowledge, I disagree, because a lot of the time you learn facts in order to understand processes, and make connections that go deeper than just being able to rattle off facts, and I don't think that copperminds could give you that deeper understanding.

They're not the same as long-term knowledge. There are things that you need to learn without using a coppermind, such as reading and writing. But a lot of things just aren't useful to know every day. They might be useful sometimes, but the majority of the time they are useless.

 

[Bearer of all agonies]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Assuming we lived in a world were such magics were both possible and commonly known, I think Copperminds (and mental augmentation Spikes) would be the equivalent of Performance Enhancing Drugs.  

But some people use Performance Reducing Drugs, like Elend.

I personally think that using a coppermind is cheating. It is using someone else's knowledge or storage to find answers. 

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Bearer of all agonies said:

But some people use Performance Reducing Drugs, like Elend.

I personally think that using a coppermind is cheating. It is using someone else's knowledge or storage to find answers. 

it would be your coppermind

[Koloss17]

So using your own coppermind is like being right at the moment you are learning the information. The questions on the text would then be about translating that information, not remembering and retaining and THEN translating the info. It is a useful thing to have, but it ruins part of the purpose of the test, which would be memorizing and retaining that information later in life. So yeah, I’d say it’s cheating.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

So using your own coppermind is like being right at the moment you are learning the information. The questions on the text would then be about translating that information, not remembering and retaining and THEN translating the info. It is a useful thing to have, but it ruins part of the purpose of the test, which would be memorizing and retaining that information later in life. So yeah, I’d say it’s cheating.

But you have memorized and you do retain that information. You can just do it better than other people, because you have a coppermind.

[Koloss17]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

But you have memorized and you do retain that information. You can just do it better than other people, because you have a coppermind.

But while you aren’t using the coppermind, you haven’t memorized it. So if they wanted you to have it on your coppermind, they would have told you the unit in 30 minutes and be done. If they wanted you to retain it even without the coppermind, they’d test ya.

[NameIess]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

But while you aren’t using the coppermind, you haven’t memorized it. So if they wanted you to have it on your coppermind, they would have told you the unit in 30 minutes and be done. If they wanted you to retain it even without the coppermind, they’d test ya.

But not everyone has a coppermind. Having a coppermind is like having a photographic memory.

[Koloss17]

Just now, Nameless said:

But not everyone has a coppermind. Having a coppermind is like having a photographic memory.

...when you are using the coppermind. Unless you are using it 24/7, it isn’t like photographic memory.

[Quantus]

10 minutes ago, Voidspawn said:

But with a Coppermind, you actually had to learn it.

Not really, you just have to get the relevant information into your short term memory.  You wouldnt need to even let it get moved to Long-term memory, let alone actually internalize the content.  I see it as akin to the action of copying the information from the Textbook to your Notes; truly Memorizing it would require the next tier methods like flash cards and/or Pneumonic devices, etc. and depending on the nature of the topic actually Learning it might be a whole other exercise that borders on the F-Zinc realm. 

This is really just my own interpretation, but to me Copperminds are just a far more direct and convenient interface than Eyes & Pen, Ears & Tape Recorder, or any of the other media recording technologies we have figured out (We're getting surprisingly close to being able to extract actual images from brain scans, for example).

 

 

Circling back to the OP, I think there could be a very interesting moral/ethical debates in Scadrian society, especially depending on the Era in question.  If the Test in question is just testing your practical capabilities then I would see no reason not to allow them (any of the metallic arts), my Professional Engineer exam was open book for this reason.  If it's more of a sport style Competition then it gets trickier.  The justification for our sports banning significant performance enhancing drugs is (as far as I understand) that they are known to be harmful and also extremely effective, to the point it is unfair to allow them and thus indirectly require them to be competitive.  Hemalurgy would probably get a blanket ban on those grounds, not to mention the fundamental "Stealing from Others" aspect of it.  [Era 2 Spoilers]

Spoiler

Ferucehmical Medallions become harder to pin down once anyone can fill one and anyone can tap it after. 

And in a Jeapordy scenario, where is the Line with the other metals?  Is F-Zinc allowed?  How about F-Steel to hit the Buzzer faster?  If Feruchemical means that are your own stored Investiture allowed, are Allomantic powers which are externally sourced?  

 

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But not everyone has a coppermind. Having a coppermind is like having a photographic memory.

The catch is that when a memory is stored in the metalmind it is removed from the Ferring's mind, and is not available.  And it takes some amount of time and fatiguing effort to move them in and out of the metalminds (with degradation each time), and Copper will not aid your ability sort or utilize the information. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Quantus said:

The catch is that when a memory is stored in the metalmind it is removed from the Ferring's mind, and is not available.  And it takes some amount of time and fatiguing effort to move them in and out of the metalminds (with degradation each time), and Copper will not aid your ability sort or utilize the information. 

Yeah, you have to do that, which is why you simply organize your copperminds, like Sazed did.

[Voidspawn]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

into your short term memory.

 

Learning does not mean put into long term, you just have to commit it to memory. That includes short term.

 

learn

[lərn]

 

VERB

1. gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.

   "they'd started learning French" · 

   [more]

   synonyms:

   acquire a knowledge of · gain an understanding of · acquire skill in · 

   [more]

   • commit to memory.
     "I'd learned too many grim poems in school"
     synonyms:

     memorize · learn by heart · learn by rote · commit to memory · 

     [more]
   • become aware of (something) by information or from observation.
     "I learned that they had eaten already" · 

     [more]
     synonyms:

     discover · find out · become aware · be made aware · be informed · 

     [more]

[mathiau]

At least in the village, copper ferrings would probably have a different education than most other child since memorizing thing would not be needed for them, at least they'd have different tests that do not focus an memorising thing but proving you can do, like these tests were you have access to your course notes. And the existence of archivists mean Jeopardy-like games have basically no chance to take of on Scadrial (and if Jeopardy itself allowed an AI to participate, they'd have allowed a ferring)

1 minute ago, Koloss17 said:

...when you are using the coppermind. Unless you are using it 24/7, it isn’t like photographic memory.

It's like Shallan's photographic memory

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The catch is that when a memory is stored in the metalmind it is removed from the Ferring's mind, and is not available.  And it takes some amount of time and fatiguing effort to move them in and out of the metalminds (with degradation each time), and Copper will not aid your ability sort or utilize the information. 

A negligible time and effort, and negligibe degradation for other things than images

[Quantus]

 

Quote

It's like Shallan's photographic memory

Even though it does have similar realmic underpinnings, Shallan's is functionally different in a whole lot of ways.

Quote

A negligible time and effort, and negligibe degradation for other things than images

But enough that it is not equivalent to the steroetypical "Photographic Memory" where everything is right there in your mind if and when you need it.   Also, when you are talking about absorbing a whole lot of book information without going through the full process of absorbing and internalizing the information, it's just going to be a lot of image memories of book pages.  

11 minutes ago, Voidspawn said:

 

Learning does not mean put into long term, you just have to commit it to memory. That includes short term.

 

learn

[lərn]

 

VERB

1. gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.

   "they'd started learning French" · 

   [more]

   synonyms:

   acquire a knowledge of · gain an understanding of · acquire skill in · 

   [more]

   • commit to memory.
     "I'd learned too many grim poems in school"
     synonyms:

     memorize · learn by heart · learn by rote · commit to memory · 

     [more]
   • become aware of (something) by information or from observation.
     "I learned that they had eaten already" · 

     [more]
     synonyms:

     discover · find out · become aware · be made aware · be informed · 

     [more]

Learning and Memorizing are VERY rarely the same thing, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling you something.  One is having a Spanish/English Dictionary at your fingertips, the other is being Fluent.  

Edited January 19, 2021 by Quantus

[mathiau]

Just now, Quantus said:

But enough that it is not equivalent to the steroetypical "Photographic Memory" where everything is right there in your mind if and when you need it.   Also, when you are talking about absorbing a whole lot of book information without actually

That was not my point. Also without actually what?

Quote

Learning and Memorizing are VERY rarely the same thing, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling you something.  

In this case that dictionary as exact