How did Odium splinter Honor?

[Mr. Misting]

34 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

On 9/12/2022 at 6:54 PM, Mr. Misting said:

Trell is almost certainly one of Autonomy's avatars, I don't think that is even questionable at this point. And yes I think Odium and Autonomy are totally colluding to take out shards. I'm not just saying this because I dislike Autonomy or anything, she is my favorite shard. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. Autonomy can put avatars on a lot more worlds if the shard that lived there is dead, and her freedom is less constrained because there are less shards to influence her. Odium wouldn't see Autonomy as a threat because she has put so much of her power into avatars. It makes sense.

We have no reason to believe that making avatars makes u less powerful.  

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

If there is a finite amount of investiture then making literal pantheons of gods, will make you weaker than the average shard.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Mr. Misting said:

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

If there is a finite amount of investiture then making literal pantheons of gods, will make you weaker than the average shard.

No your confusing splinters with avatars. The investiture of a avatar is not cut of from its shard,  because the avatar and the shard are still connected.  It's like putting your hand in a sock puppet. Your hand doesn't stop being your hand because you put it in a sock puppet,  You are not less because your hand is in a sock puppet.   An avatar is still connected to The Shard because it is The Shard just wearing a mask in a way only a shard can. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Mr. Misting]

 

30 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

No your confusing splinters with avatars. The investiture of a avatar is not cut of from its shard,  because the avatar and the shard are still connected.  It's like putting your hand in a sock puppet. Your hand doesn't stop being your hand because you put it in a sock puppet,  You are not less because your hand is in a sock puppet.   An avatar is still connected to The Shard because it is The Shard just wearing a mask in a way only a shard can. 

No I know, but Autonomy prime would still be weaker. If Odium attacked Autonomy Prime she would still be connected to the rest of the investiture but it would not be able to help her because it would be on different planets, attached to different "gods". I'm not saying Autonomy collective pool of investiture is getting smaller, I'm saying that Autonomy prime is getting weaker because she is dividing the power.

 

[Thanatos]

I disagree, Brandon says a Shards usable investiture is limited to the size of the vessels awareness. 

Ruin's and Preservation's awareness extended to the Scadrial solar system.

Honor, Cultivation and Odium is limited to the Rosharian system. Etc etc.

Autonomy creating avatars 'would' extend her awareness outside of the Taldain solar system thereby giving her access to more of her investiture.

I say 'would' as we dont know the mechanics behind said avatars. But even if she does splinter herself to create the avatars, then said avatar would gain more investiture than its creation.

Example: Autonomy splinters 0.00001% of her investiture to create an avatar, then sends it to another part of the cosmere and it gains 20% of Autonomy's original access to its investiture, THATS a massive gain for little loss. 

Place the avatar in an area where its awareness/access to investiture slightly overlaps Autonomy Prime and slowly Autonomy grows and gains more power. And the loss of investiture in creating the avatar due to this placement goes from 0.00001% to 0%.

....

Edit.

Ok 20% is a bit much if a Shard is 1/16th of the Cosmere. Thereby its vessal is expanded to 1/16th of the Cosmere. So say for example Autonomy gains 5% not 20%. That 16.8 avatars to gain 100% of her total investiture. 

Hmmm theres that 16 number again. Wonder is each avatar gains Autonomy 5.25%.

5.25 x 16 = 84 + 16 = 100% access to the Autonomy intents investiture.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Thanatos

[LewsTherinTelescope]

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It says his soul not the power 

While it doesn't use the term "power", the Investiture that makes the atium was stolen to put them on even footing again, which doesn't make much sense if it's not referring to the power of the Shard. There's also a distinction drawn between what Preservation normally did and when Leras used his own essence to render Ati powerless, the use of which left him nearly impotent.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

While it doesn't use the term "power", the Investiture that makes the atium was stolen to put them on even footing again, which doesn't make much sense if it's not referring to the power of the Shard. There's also a distinction drawn between what Preservation normally did and when Leras used his own essence to render Ati powerless, the use of which left him nearly impotent.

 I always interpreted that as not to do with him taking away his power but taking away his ability to use his power. As we have seen damage To the soul of the Vessel can make using the power difficult to control, It's not then theoretically possible for you to damage the soul of the vessel  To make it difficult or impossible to use The Shard.  

[bmcclure7]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:40 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Preservation explicitly was at a disadvantage due to Investing more of his power:

How this makes sense... I dunno. It's confusing. But it's also an essential part of the backstory to Mistborn that it's the case.

 Brendan clearly says that investor is infinite and each chard is infinite. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8702

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I always interpreted that as not to do with him taking away his power but taking away his ability to use his power. As we have seen damage To the soul of the Vessel can make using the power difficult to control, It's not then theoretically possible for you to damage the soul of the vessel  To make it difficult or impossible to use The Shard.  

It was a specific chunk of his power, though. Ruin was still able to use the Shard, just not the Investiture cycling through the Pits. (Weird side note, apparently he'd have to manifest and literally eat and digest the atium to reabsorb it, if I'm remembering the WoBs correctly.)

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Brendan clearly says that investor is infinite and each chard is infinite. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8702

That same WoB also says that the Vessels cannot access it all.

---

(Also, as mentioned in the forum policies, please do not double-post. You can quote multiple comments in one go by pressing the + button next to Quote, or by quoting it normally but cut-pasting it into your last message as an edit rather than sending a new post.)

[Mr. Misting]

On 9/26/2022 at 4:41 AM, Thanatos said:

I disagree, Brandon says a Shards usable investiture is limited to the size of the vessels awareness. 

Ruin's and Preservation's awareness extended to the Scadrial solar system.

Honor, Cultivation and Odium is limited to the Rosharian system. Etc etc.

Autonomy creating avatars 'would' extend her awareness outside of the Taldain solar system thereby giving her access to more of her investiture.

I say 'would' as we dont know the mechanics behind said avatars. But even if she does splinter herself to create the avatars, then said avatar would gain more investiture than its creation.

Example: Autonomy splinters 0.00001% of her investiture to create an avatar, then sends it to another part of the cosmere and it gains 20% of Autonomy's original access to its investiture, THATS a massive gain for little loss. 

Place the avatar in an area where its awareness/access to investiture slightly overlaps Autonomy Prime and slowly Autonomy grows and gains more power. And the loss of investiture in creating the avatar due to this placement goes from 0.00001% to 0%.

....

Edit.

Ok 20% is a bit much if a Shard is 1/16th of the Cosmere. Thereby its vessal is expanded to 1/16th of the Cosmere. So say for example Autonomy gains 5% not 20%. That 16.8 avatars to gain 100% of her total investiture. 

Hmmm theres that 16 number again. Wonder is each avatar gains Autonomy 5.25%.

5.25 x 16 = 84 + 16 = 100% access to the Autonomy intents investiture.

According to you making avatars actually increases a shards power and influence. If this is true why wouldn't every single shard be doing it. There has to be a downside otherwise we would be seeing a lot more avatars from shards. 

[bmcclure7]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:05 PM, Mr. Misting said:

According to you making avatars actually increases a shards power and influence. If this is true why wouldn't every single shard be doing it. There has to be a downside otherwise we would be seeing a lot more avatars from shards. 

 I suspect there are downsides but not downsides in power but loss identity personhood.  The avatars say that autonomy can no longer respond so I suspect that as she makes more avatars she becomes less a person and more a force.

[cometaryorbit]

From the way it's described in WoB, a Shard has to kind of reach out into the universe and find Investiture that's aligned with it. The letter in OB implies that it's a slow process. So it probably is a split of the shard's attention for a while in a way that a Shard in direct conflict with another can't afford.

Also, it sounds like it's only an advantage if you're interested in other planets. If your whole existence is focused on one like Ruin/Preservation's conflict, it's probably not an advantage.

Also... a good portion of the Shards we've seen much from are either Splintered or imprisoned, and probably can't.

Harmony is probably having too much trouble with competing Intents and his knowledge of the cosmere beyond Scadrial is limited.

 Cultivation's likely busy with Odium now, but can we really rule out her creating avatars in the past? Given that Ashyn's magic is apparently Cultivation related, it really would not surprise me if she has an avatar there.

Creating avatars feels very in line with Endowment, and given that the Returned only started ~600 years before Warbreaker, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a half dozen former Endowment planets with avatars left behind.

Edited October 3, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Thanatos]

bmcclure7

Quote

The avatars say that autonomy can no longer respond so I suspect that as she makes more avatars she becomes less a person and more a force.

Thats a good deduction, based on reason and logic. Most likely the case.

Like i said, we don't know the mechanics on the avatars, but that a really good view.

... to throw out another vairable, Autonomy closing off the Taldain system for whatever reason, closed off her communication to her avatars?

Just theorising.

Autonomy Prime may know what the avatars know but the avatars cannot communicate with her.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Thanatos

[Leuthie]

Preservation was going to eventually lose to Ruin because Leras tore off Investiture from his control and used it to make Scadrians sentient. Preservation no longer had access to that Investiture, so it could not be employed in his defense. Preservation had less power.

Odium refused to Invest in a planet because it would weaken and trap him. He was eventually forced to. The power to force a Shard to do something that Shard adamantly refuses to do probably takes a huge commitment. Like Preservation, Honor made a commitment to something that inevitably resulted in his death. Odium wasn't able to free himself, but he used the weaknesses Honor created in himself to take Honor down.

As an aside: Harmony is considerably more powerful than any other Shard, but it would be difficult to bring all of that power to bear because of the opposing Intents. The amount of Investiture available and the form that Investiture currently takes, whether its Intent or it's current employ, determine the power that a Shard has available to them. In direct confrontation, that power level is important.

[Thanatos]

I thought Preservation lost cause he used his cognitive aspect to trap Ruin near the Well of Ascension.

I also think a Shard investing in a planet does not weaken them, just traps them in that location. The power is still there, the Shards conciousness cant move around the Cosmere.

[Leuthie]

On 10/4/2022 at 6:49 PM, Thanatos said:

I thought Preservation lost cause he used his cognitive aspect to trap Ruin near the Well of Ascension.

I also think a Shard investing in a planet does not weaken them, just traps them in that location. The power is still there, the Shards conciousness cant move around the Cosmere.

If you can't use the Investiture without destroying the things you've created, you have to be willing to destroy those things. Preservation was unwilling to destroy the people of Scadrial, so the power required to make them sentient (sapient?) was unavailable to him, making him less powerful than Ruin. He trapped Ruin BECAUSE of this power disparity. The power used to trap Ruin made Preservation nearly powerless, his only remnant being the Mists and the plans he put in place.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

On 1/18/2021 at 10:04 PM, Frustration said:

Why does everyone give Autonomy such a bad rep?

The ONLY thing that could be linked to this is Trell, and even that is questionable.

TLM spoiler 

 

Spoiler

Hahaha didn't age well

But no, there was a reason the fandom was in such a consensus about autonomy=trell, it was the only real option besides odium himself, wed narrowed it down through elimination and wobs, there was just too many clues.

 

But they definitely didn't come across benevolent even before Lost Metal. It basically just confirmed what we'd always assumed about them, odium may be more outright malevolent but nuking the planet is Ruin levels of destruction.n. From taldain to Patji, the splintering alongside odium, and now on Scadrial, they're 100% bad news, lost metal basically just fleshed out how much of a threat they are and consolidated all the preexisting tidbits

[Stigmadiabolicum]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:08 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Brendan clearly says that investor is infinite and each chard is infinite. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8702

 

You're partially right, they're still infinite but even that tiny bit created an imbalance. The fact preservation invested more of themselves into humanity, making ruin more powerful was a major plot point, which is why hoarding the atium was needed to nerf him and maintain their balance. Same reason odium never invested himself, why he'd have a leg up on honor and preservation at first. It's basically like melkor expending his power in his creations haha, and same reason breaking an agreement would open themselves up to being attacked, it's a delicate balance.

Obviously infinite is infinite, whether they make 1 human or a planet it shouldn't matter, even if their investiture exists in the physical as metal, a gas or entities, but it does, we just don't know if it's a realmatic thing or what. 

[offer]

Please delete those comments. TLM spoilers are not allowed here.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

1 hour ago, offer said:

Please delete those comments. TLM spoilers are not allowed here.

Oh really, even now? My apologies, I'm on it

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

Spoiler

Hahaha didn't age well

 

This should also go in the spoiler.

[Argent]

I've adjusted the message a little, I think it works well enough now 

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Argent said:

I've adjusted the message a little, I think it works well enough now 

Thanks Argent!

[Stigmadiabolicum]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:13 AM, Argent said:

I've adjusted the message a little, I think it works well enough now 

My apologies bud! Since we were discussing Era 1 & 2 in relation to RoW I figured it was okay, all cosmere just blends together for me haha. is TLM still just off limits? I get Tress being flagged since it's brand new

Either way, won't happen again 

[Argent]

2 hours ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

My apologies bud! Since we were discussing Era 1 & 2 in relation to RoW I figured it was okay, all cosmere just blends together for me haha. is TLM still just off limits? I get Tress being flagged since it's brand new

Either way, won't happen again 

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