Jump to content

How did Odium splinter Honor?


KSub

Recommended Posts

I was over in the Ars Arcanum and went on a bit if a deep dive of WoBs today. Here's what I found 

Quote

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)
#52 
Questioner
When Odium says "We killed you." Is that RAFO, or?
Brandon Sanderson
RAFO... I'm just not confirming it or denying it, what it means


Brandon keeps his cards close with this RAFO. Sometimes he let's something slip before dropping the RAFO hammer.
But what does Odium mean? 

'We killed you.' He says, right after Dalinar opens Honors perpendicularity. You is presumably Honor. The only other option that makes sense is Adonalsium but I think that the less likely option. But who is we?

Quote

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
#23 
Questioner
Could-- would Odium ever work with another Shard? Maybe not pick up another one--
Brandon Sanderson
If he were in charge. Yes, this is within the realm of possibility of what Odium would do. In fact, that may have happened at various points *sly smile


Brandon makes a point of saying 'at various points'. I think he is saying that Odium has worked with multiple shards. It's been implied that Mercy may have helped splinter Ambition and Autonomy helped splinter Dominion and Devotion.

 

Quote

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)
#3 
Khyrindor
Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--
Brandon Sanderson
RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage


Brandon says that it is dangerous for one shard to attack another. So would Odium attack two shards. I think it's more likely he convinced another shard to come to Roshar?

My guess is Odium would have convinced Autonomy. It was a dishardic world. That seems like something Autonomy would be willing to help with, as she did on Sel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium got trapped on Roshar by Honor and Cultivation. I speculate that Honor basically splintered himself (or allowed himself to be splintered) to solidify the prison after the Heralds quit. It was probably a deal much like what Dalinar made with Odium. "If I win, you're trapped for the next 10000 years. If I lose, you can kill me and splinter the Shard and you'll be trapped for only 1000 years." Or some such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why does everyone give Autonomy such a bad rep?

Because Hoid has a similar grudge against Bavadin as he did Rayse, and we know what kind of monster Rayse was. Also how Autonomy hypocritically messes with other planets yet hates anyone doing anything with Taldain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, StanLemon said:

Because Hoid has a similar grudge against Bavadin as he did Rayse, and we know what kind of monster Rayse was.

Odium is also literal Wrath incarnate, and Hoid isn't exactly the most reliable of people, He is called the Liar of Patronel for a reason.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

 Also how Autonomy hypocritically messes with other planets yet hates anyone doing anything with Taldain

A very human thing to do lets be honest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Frustration said:

Odium is also literal Wrath incarnate, and Hoid isn't exactly the most reliable of people, He is called the Liar of Patronel for a reason.

I was merely giving a reason. Counterpoint though, it's not Odium Hoid had a grudge with, it was Rayse. And he likely has good reasoning for his grudge against Bavadin and that likely isn't a lie as it was revealed to us in a correspondence with Frost who knew Bavadin and Hoid personally Pre-Shattering.

Just now, Frustration said:

A very human thing to do lets be honest.

True, but doesn't do Autonomy any favors as far as people's perception on if they are bad or not

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, StanLemon said:

I was merely giving a reason. Counterpoint though, it's not Odium Hoid had a grudge with, it was Rayse.

I was saying that the Shard wasn't doing the Vessle any favors in the whole good/bad dinamic.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

And he likely has good reasoning for his grudge against Bavadin and that likely isn't a lie as it was revealed to us in a correspondence with Frost who knew Bavadin and Hoid personally Pre-Shattering.

Fair enough, but he also desn't get along with Kelsier, and he isn't that bad, not good I'd say but he doesn't get anywhere near the level of suspision that Autonomy is placed under.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's tenuous, but we have this

Quote
Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)
#4 

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Autonomy may not have been involved but I don't see why Odium would attack two shards alone if it is such a risk. And who is the we he refers to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We do have this WoB on why he goes after diShardic worlds:

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

There's also this WoB:

Quote

Shadow Guardian

You have mentioned that the Shards... they did not make an oath to have only one per planet, although the suggestion was made. Have any of the Shards made an oath that has bound themselves, expecting the others to follow suit?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Oaths have been made, that have been unwise oaths. You have even seen one of those - the oath between Ruin and Preservation. But that's not the only example of oaths being used in ways that bind the Shards in ways they weren't expecting.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

My theory on it has been that perhaps Rayse was someone who did in the beginning make a binding Oath not to interfere with other Shards (or perhaps made a normal agreement but holds himself to it anyway; imo the whole "spirit of the deal" bit might be indicative of Rayse holding himself to his word more strictly than some). However, Odium the Shard eventually pushed him to move against the others. To get around breaking this deal, he attacks diShardic worlds, because he can argue that they are breaking the rules and forfeit the protection of the agreement.

 

Edit: On "we killed you" — I think it means the Fused or Unmade or something, most likely, as I bet he managed to use them to get Honor to Invest enough of himself to be weakened. Alternatively, he managed to use them to manipulate Tanavast into breaking an Oath, opening Honor up to attack.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

... he attacks diShardic worlds, because he can argue that they are breaking the rules and forfeit the protection of the agreement.

That could be, but my point is why would he attack a dishardic world solo?

Maybe Honor or Cultivation made some kind of oath to bring him to Roshar?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, KSub said:

That could be, but my point is why would he attack a dishardic world solo?

Maybe Honor or Cultivation made some kind of oath to bring him to Roshar?

Maybe joining with another Shard would have in his mind put him in violation of the Oath, while "enforcing" the Oath didn't. Maybe he worried the other Shard could metaphorically stab him in the back, while if he attacked alone, nobody besides his targets would be able to "arrive" (for lack of a better word, considering we're talking Spiritual entities) quickly enough. Maybe he was just cocky (and perhaps deservedly so, considering how many Splinterings he got). He'd already taken out three Shards by the time he arrived on Roshar, possibly all singlehandedly in 2v1s (depends on exactly how Sel went down and which side Mercy was on in the Ambition fight, but I'd guess they were not his ally, since we have Sel and Roshar as presumably 2v1s as well). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Well, we saw how cultivation had such future sight as to coordinate taravangians ascension. I think it’s fully plausible that cultivation ended up switching sides during the periods of desolations in order to end the constant stagnation, planning for a better later outcome

Edited by HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/18/2021 at 9:04 PM, Frustration said:

Why does everyone give Autonomy such a bad rep?

The ONLY thing that could be linked to this is Trell, and even that is questionable.

Trell is almost certainly one of Autonomy's avatars, I don't think that is even questionable at this point. And yes I think Odium and Autonomy are totally colluding to take out shards. I'm not just saying this because I dislike Autonomy or anything, she is my favorite shard. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. Autonomy can put avatars on a lot more worlds if the shard that lived there is dead, and her freedom is less constrained because there are less shards to influence her. Odium wouldn't see Autonomy as a threat because she has put so much of her power into avatars. It makes sense.

Edited by Mr. Misting
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has Autonomy put so much power in her avatars?

If the Shards have limited access to their intents investiture due to a limited conciseness/awareness, then Autonomy creating avatars would allow Autonomy to access more of her investiture. 

Spreading the Avatars across the Cosmere would make Autonomy more powerful.

In my mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Mr. Misting said:

Trell is almost certainly one of Autonomy's avatars, I don't think that is even questionable at this point. And yes I think Odium and Autonomy are totally colluding to take out shards. I'm not just saying this because I dislike Autonomy or anything, she is my favorite shard. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. Autonomy can put avatars on a lot more worlds if the shard that lived there is dead, and her freedom is less constrained because there are less shards to influence her. Odium wouldn't see Autonomy as a threat because she has put so much of her power into avatars. It makes sense.

Trell makes more sense as a servant of Odium.

Red and gold, going after Harmony, when we know for a fact Odium both fears, and has plans to deal with Harmony, body snatching servants, etc.

The only thing linking to Autonomy is the name trell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Trell makes more sense as a servant of Odium.

Red and gold, going after Harmony, when we know for a fact Odium both fears, and has plans to deal with Harmony, body snatching servants, etc.

The only thing linking to Autonomy is the name trell.

Well the thing is Odium has been confined on the Rosharan system for a long fricken while. He wouldn't have a chance to put a avatar on Scadrial. He also is probably opposed to splitting his power, because that makes him weaker and easier to be taken out by other shards. 

Autonomy on the other hand has a strong incentive and opportunity to put a avatar on Scadrial. During the catacendre, shards would have started to worry about Harmony, since he has two shards and such. Autonomy could probably have slipped a avatar under Harmony's radar since there was so much crap going on and Harmony wouldn't be experienced enough to notice it. Trell also has many parallels to autonomy. The name Trell is seen on Taldain, and Trell's followers have strong beliefs in freedom and giving people autonomy. Personally I think the mention of red and gold going after harmony is autonomy showing how she is working with Odium.

This is just what I think but it makes so much sense for Autonomy and Trell to be related.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know very little about Shard vulnerabilities.

But we do know that a shard whose vessel’s intent diverges significantly from the power’s intent, is extremely vulnerable. 

Another thing we know is that Honor died to save humankind. (I’ll see if I can dig up the quote.)

To me the clearest story is that the power’s intent would have been, for whatever reason, to harm or exterminate mankind, but Tanavast resisted, giving him the opening to die.
 

We also know that somehow he “severely wounded” Odium in the *process* of dying, which was a wound that Odium carried with him til he died. But not a whole lot of information there.

Finally, my own out-there theory: I think Cultivation was the one who helped kill Honor. It’s very Brandon for that to be the case; we don’t know much about Cultivation; and it’s easy to imagine, similar to how Mercy might help kill Ambition. The idea would be that Honor wants humans to stagnate too much, *is* too stagnant himself, refuses to grow - therefore his intent is opposed to Cultivation’s, and he must be taken out to preserve growth on Roshar.

Do I have much more evidence than this? No. But I’m sure I will soon!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2021 at 10:17 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We do have this WoB on why he goes after diShardic worlds:

There's also this WoB:

My theory on it has been that perhaps Rayse was someone who did in the beginning make a binding Oath not to interfere with other Shards (or perhaps made a normal agreement but holds himself to it anyway; imo the whole "spirit of the deal" bit might be indicative of Rayse holding himself to his word more strictly than some). However, Odium the Shard eventually pushed him to move against the others. To get around breaking this deal, he attacks diShardic worlds, because he can argue that they are breaking the rules and forfeit the protection of the agreement.

 

Edit: On "we killed you" — I think it means the Fused or Unmade or something, most likely, as I bet he managed to use them to get Honor to Invest enough of himself to be weakened. Alternatively, he managed to use them to manipulate Tanavast into breaking an Oath, opening Honor up to attack.

People keep thinking that shard’s vulnerabilities are overextending their investiture - but their power is always referred to as “infinite” or “essentially infinite”. 
 

By contrast, the one clear cut example we have of a shard being vulnerable is Odium as a result of divergence between the vessel and power’s intents. 
 

Shards are vulnerable through connection, identify, and intent. Not from pouring too much investiture into a box.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

By contrast, the one clear cut example we have of a shard being vulnerable is Odium as a result of divergence between the vessel and power’s intents. 

Shards are vulnerable through connection, identify, and intent. Not from pouring too much investiture into a box.

Preservation explicitly was at a disadvantage due to Investing more of his power:

Quote

Preservation's desire to create sentient life was what eventually broke the stalemate. In order to give mankind awareness and independent thought, Preservation knew that he would have to give up part of himself—his own soul—to dwell within mankind. This would leave him just a tiny bit weaker than his opposite, Ruin.

That tiny bit seemed inconsequential, compared with their total vast sums of power. However, over aeons, this tiny flaw would allow Ruin to overcome Preservation, thereby bringing an end to the world.

How this makes sense... I dunno. It's confusing. But it's also an essential part of the backstory to Mistborn that it's the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"How did Odium splinter Honor?"  With Cultivations help.

 

Edit: to avoid double posting I will just edit this post.

The reasoning is Cultivations intent is to help things grow. Being on a planet with an eternal war going on makes it hard to cultivate things. Not being able to stop Odium, her intent eventually pushed her to end the war anyway she could, so she helped Odium splinter Honor and wept because of it. 

Edited by KnightsOfHonor
to avoid double posting
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually have a different thought path than your guyses. I think that maybe odium stripped the investiture that honor had of its intent, making it weaker and confusing the shard, making it much easier to kill. Just a side thought. An edit: not destroy the intent, just separate it from the investiture, cause I’m pretty sure that it is impossible to destroy intent.

Edited by Darkeye Venev
More stuff and avoiding double posting
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/14/2022 at 11:05 PM, coolsnow7 said:

People keep thinking that shard’s vulnerabilities are overextending their investiture - but their power is always referred to as “infinite” or “essentially infinite”. 

In math some infinities are larger than other infinities.  Such as "all whole numbers" vs "all even numbers".  So if a shard weakened itself, it could still have infinite power, while being weaker than other shards, and thus able to be destroyed by those shards.

Edited by Kalad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/12/2022 at 7:54 PM, Mr. Misting said:

Trell is almost certainly one of Autonomy's avatars, I don't think that is even questionable at this point. And yes I think Odium and Autonomy are totally colluding to take out shards. I'm not just saying this because I dislike Autonomy or anything, she is my favorite shard. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. Autonomy can put avatars on a lot more worlds if the shard that lived there is dead, and her freedom is less constrained because there are less shards to influence her. Odium wouldn't see Autonomy as a threat because she has put so much of her power into avatars. It makes sense.

We have no reason to believe that making avatars makes u less powerful.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/24/2022 at 2:56 PM, Kalad said:

In math some infinities are larger than other infinities.  Such as "all whole numbers" vs "all even numbers".  So if a shard weakened itself, it could still have infinite power, while being weaker than other shards, and thus able to be destroyed by those shards.

 Alternatively  Perhaps doesn't weaken that but make them more vulnerable. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...