Shard damage

[Chinsukolo]

I've seen some threads on Nightblood, but not this specific question. My apologies if its there and I missed it though poor search or it being buried form months ago.

Odium(Rayse) pulls T and night blood into their "realm" (for lack of better word).  T stabs Rayse/Odium with Nightblood.   Nightblood is engorged on the sheer volume and stops feasting and becomes sated/lethargic.  We know that Nightblood corrupts Investiture to some other investiture, which would effectively make what was corrupted unavailable to Odium(shard).

I believe Nightblood killed Rayse and sucked his investiture, but a person doesn't have enough to sate Nighblood, so I (think) Nightblood HAD to eat/chew/corrupt some of the actual shards investiture too.

Does this now leave Odium (even a smidge) weaker than before and than all other non shattered shards (since they all started with an even 1/16th)?

Could Nightblood have done enough damage (that the new Todium is unaware of because he's new and not aware of power lvl 9000 before the event compared to his now power lvl 8500) that he's measurable weaker than other shards?  Possibly in a way that will lead to his downfall later?

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Chinsukolo said:

Does this now leave Odium (even a smidge) weaker than before and than all other non shattered shards (since they all started with an even 1/16th)?

Could Nightblood have done enough damage (that the new Todium is unaware of because he's new and not aware of power lvl 9000 before the event compared to his now power lvl 8500) that he's measurable weaker than other shards?  Possibly in a way that will lead to his downfall later?

Actually, Odium is almost certainly still more powerful than almost any of the shards. Nightblood is pretty much nothing compared to the power of the shards, think 10,000 to 9,999. Odium also doesn't invest any of his power unless he has to, compared to other shards who are doing things like creating entire planets and donating breaths to every single inhabitant of their planet.

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Actually, Odium is almost certainly still more powerful than almost any of the shards. Nightblood is pretty much nothing compared to the power of the shards, think 10,000 to 9,999. Odium also doesn't invest any of his power unless he has to, compared to other shards who are doing things like creating entire planets and donating breaths to every single inhabitant of their planet.

Do you think that is why there doesn't seem to be a distinct magic system for Odium for Roshar?

[Aspiring Writer]

6 hours ago, Chinsukolo said:

but a person doesn't have enough to sate Nighblood

Rayse was a Vessel, which are much more invested than a normal person, massively so. We know this because even people who have once held the power are invested enough to resist the pull of the beyond, these being Slivers, which are a step down from vessels, so it's entirely possible a Vessel alone is enough to satisfy Nightblood.

[NameIess]

34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Do you think that is why there doesn't seem to be a distinct magic system for Odium for Roshar?

There is voidbinding, but I would guess that only the unmade/corrupted spren can grant access to it.

[Mason Wheeler]

We know that Odium was already "injured" in some form due to previous conflicts with other Shards.  This most likely means that its power, rather than being stronger than all of the others, was diminished somehow.  Rayse won those fights with others based on skill and craftiness, not raw strength.

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

We know that Odium was already "injured" in some form due to previous conflicts with other Shards.  This most likely means that its power, rather than being stronger than all of the others, was diminished somehow.  Rayse won those fights with others based on skill and craftiness, not raw strength.

Pretty sure that was with his conflict with Honor, which, while dying in the process, did manage to defeat him and trap him on Braize, and why he has needed to invest so much on Roshar with the Fused, Regals, and Unmade.

[CaptainRyan]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Pretty sure that was with his conflict with Honor, which, while dying in the process, did manage to defeat him and trap him on Braize, and why he has needed to invest so much on Roshar with the Fused, Regals, and Unmade.

I vaguely recall a WoB talking about Odium's battle with Ambition. It was a direct conflict that was messy for both Shards. After that fight, Odium learned to be more cunning. I wonder if Odium ever "healed" from that fight or was left "wounded" in some fashion. 

[Aspiring Writer]

24 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I vaguely recall a WoB talking about Odium's battle with Ambition. It was a direct conflict that was messy for both Shards. After that fight, Odium learned to be more cunning. I wonder if Odium ever "healed" from that fight or was left "wounded" in some fashion. 

From what I know, it was messy for Ambition, as she was wounded and then killed later somewhere else. i don't remember any WoB saying it was messy for Odium.

[Lunu’anaki]

19 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

From what I know, it was messy for Ambition, as she was wounded and then killed later somewhere else. i don't remember any WoB saying it was messy for Odium.

I couldn't find it on Arcanum but I swear I've heard that mentioned somewhere as well --- maybe its just a theory from here though. 

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

Actually, Odium is almost certainly still more powerful than almost any of the shards. Nightblood is pretty much nothing compared to the power of the shards, think 10,000 to 9,999. Odium also doesn't invest any of his power unless he has to, compared to other shards who are doing things like creating entire planets and donating breaths to every single inhabitant of their planet.

ummmm... he's recently invested into Roshar... that was basically the undertext of all of RoW. The Sibling basically said as much, and he's now got a "true tone" and everything. It may only be to solidify his control while he is stuck there... and he might 'divest' (if that's a thing), but for now he seems to have set himself up as a god on Roshar...

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Lunu’anaki said:

I couldn't find it on Arcanum but I swear I've heard that mentioned somewhere as well --- maybe its just a theory from here though. 

ummmm... he's recently invested into Roshar... that was basically the undertext of all of RoW. The Sibling basically said as much, and he's now got a "true tone" and everything. It may only be to solidify his control while he is stuck there... and he might 'divest' (if that's a thing), but for now he seems to have set himself up as a god on Roshar...

I'm not sure if he can take it back, at least easily. Otherwise I don't see why he would be so concerned about doing it. Just invest on whatever a planet a shard is on an take it back once you've killed them.

[Lunu’anaki]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I'm not sure if he can take it back, at least easily. Otherwise I don't see why he would be so concerned about doing it. Just invest on whatever a planet a shard is on an take it back once you've killed them.

Good point. Perhaps that means he is likely to refrain from investing anymore than the bare minimum...

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Lunu’anaki said:

Good point. Perhaps that means he is likely to refrain from investing anymore than the bare minimum...

Well, now T has control of Odium, and he might end up deciding to invest more. A lot of the Shards we fear are ones who have been investing a lot into their worlds. Not investing might actually be really close-minded. Having an army is better tactically than one incredibly powerful shard. (Same reason why the death star was incredibly stupid tactically.)

[mathiau]

Actually, Rayse did not sate Nightblood. The perpendicularity had so he probably was still kind of full but he didn't go in food coma after killing Rayse

13 hours ago, Nameless said:

There is voidbinding, but I would guess that only the unmade/corrupted spren can grant access to it.

Renarin can and probably Rlain (it's possible he'd warbind instead), the fused are just surgebinders.

[NameIess]

8 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

ummmm... he's recently invested into Roshar... that was basically the undertext of all of RoW. The Sibling basically said as much, and he's now got a "true tone" and everything. It may only be to solidify his control while he is stuck there... and he might 'divest' (if that's a thing), but for now he seems to have set himself up as a god on Roshar...

He doesn't invest unless he has to. It's probably time consuming to deinvest, but since he's stuck there anyways, he decided to invest on Roshar.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Renarin can and probably Rlain (it's possible he'd warbind instead), the fused are just surgebinders.

Yeah, through corrupted spren, which were created by an unmade.

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, through corrupted spren, which were created by an unmade.

There's no reason uncorrupted voidspren (like the yellow spren guiding the parshmen at the beginning of Oathbringer) wouldn't work. Anyway my point was mostly that fused are not voidbinders but surgebinder

[NameIess]

35 minutes ago, mathiau said:

There's no reason uncorrupted voidspren (like the yellow spren guiding the parshmen at the beginning of Oathbringer) wouldn't work. Anyway my point was mostly that fused are not voidbinders but surgebinder

Exactly my point. Odium doesn't invest more than he has to, to the point that his magic system only comes from the unmade.

[CaptainRyan]

23 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

From what I know, it was messy for Ambition, as she was wounded and then killed later somewhere else. i don't remember any WoB saying it was messy for Odium.

I found this one, though I remember something more specific:

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11813

[+Doomstick]

19 hours ago, mathiau said:

Actually, Rayse did not sate Nightblood. The perpendicularity had so he probably was still kind of full but he didn't go in food coma after killing Rayse

Renarin can and probably Rlain (it's possible he'd warbind instead), the fused are just surgebinders.

Technically, all magic is surgebinding.

Edited January 18, 2021 by AonDii

[StanLemon]

48 minutes ago, AonDii said:

Technically, all magic is surgebinding.

Well, you're half right. Mostly because Rosharans classify everything as Surgebinding. In universe Cosmere scholars (and Brandon) would disagree

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility

This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could...

Edited January 18, 2021 by StanLemon

[Mason Wheeler]

The thing I've always wondered about (always since Brandon wrote that, at least) is, if "Surgebinding" is their term for magic in general, then what's up with "the Old Magic"?

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mason Wheeler

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The thing I've always wondered about (always since Brandon wrote that, at least) is, if "Surgebinding" is their term for magic in general, what's the up with "the Old Magic"?

It's possible they consider it a special subset of Surgebinding, or that it's just to weird so they gave it another name

[Leuthie]

FYI: The amount of Investiture that Dalinar brought to the fight at the end of Oathbringer was a nearly infinitesimal fraction of Honor's total Investiture and a tiny tiny amount of that was enough to sate Nightblood. What he took from Odium wouldn't be a rounding error in the Power Accountant's spreadsheet. 

So no, Nightblood didn't weaken Odium when he killed Rayse.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 1/18/2021 at 0:48 AM, CaptainRyan said:

I found this one, though I remember something more specific:

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11813

This is what I feel the lesson is from what Rayse was trying to do. If you want to kill the other Vessels don't do it with direct fights. According to the Stormfather a Vessel's wounds never heal or at least ones taken from other Shard vessels don't "Those wounds do not heal" OB Ch. 38.

Trying to kill all the other Shards directly is like running a gauntlet of 15 (or 14 w/ Harmony) straight fights, because no matter how much time is taken in between fights the wounds don't heal.

 

@Mason Wheeler on why they call it the Old Magic:

My theory is it is similar to the magic system on Ashyn. This isn't fully canon yet, but the people on Ashyn that can use magic are ones that get sick with an illness.  As soon as they get better they lose their ability to use magic.

They get a boon (magic use) and they get a bane (illness). In broad terms the Nightwatcher tradeoff reminded the early human refugees of Ashyn magic and they called it the Old Maigc. WoB hidden for length: 

Spoiler

Quote

 

beer_in_an_esky

1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that?

2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?

3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet.

2) No.

3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/62/#e3086

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8243

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Child of Hodor

[Wandering Investor]

On 1/18/2021 at 0:48 AM, CaptainRyan said:

I found this one, though I remember something more specific:

That's all I could find as well, but I also remember something that more directly implied that Odium took a hit during the fight with Ambition.

 

On the topic of invested in Roshar, my understanding was that the conflict with Honor forced Odium to invest much more than he would have wanted, and at this point even with the other shards gone, leaving would be a very difficult prospect.