Jump to content

Unite Them (Dawnshard spoilers)


Zanarkand

Recommended Posts

The following is a pet theory of mine that has been simmering for a few months. Apologies in advance if this has already been discussed.

Odium mentions a few times that Dalinar is the only one that can release him from Roshar because he commands the greatest part of Honor's power. But it never made sense to me that Honor could trap Odium unilaterally like that, unless they made some form of agreement. But why should that agreement bind Odium? We see an interaction between two Shards elsewhere in the Cosmere where one breaks an agreement with the other and that in and of itself didn't seem to affect the balance of power between said Shards. I feel there has to be a secret sauce explanation for how Honor bound Odium. I think a Dawnshard is a reasonable conjecture. Let's call it the Dawnshard of Unity. It's a Command that binds things together. And if I'm right, Dalinar has it.

My theory is that somehow the Dawnshard ended up on Ashyn, possibly carried there by Odium and was given to/taken by Ishar. With it he was able to bind the surges so that men could use them, but in a way that was unchecked. I don't think the surges at this point come from Honor because he wouldn't give access to them without conditions. The use of these unchecked surges led to the downfall of the Tranquiline Halls and the exile of mankind to Roshar.

To me it seems likely that Honor would require mankind to give up the Dawnshard and the surges as a condition of their rescue. Thus Honor becomes the holder of the Dawnshard and uses it to bind Odium to the system. Honor also gives the heralds access to the surges again to fight the desolations but this time under his sanction and control.

When Honor is succumbing to Odium's attack he is worried that humans will get the Dawnshard again once he dies and will destroy Roshar with unchecked surges like with Ashyn. So he leaves it with his cognitive shadow, the Stormfather.

Now the Stormfather is tasked with finding a new bondsmith, but this bondsmith won't be ordinary, they will also have the Dawnshard passed to them through the bond with the Stormfather.

In the "Dawnshard" novella, we discover that the Dawnshards are Commands and there are four of them. The one Rysn obtains seems to be the Command of Change and at one point she hears that command in her mind. Well Dalinar throughout the series repeatedly hears the Command of his Dawnshard too: "Unite Them."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/16/2021 at 3:03 AM, Zanarkand said:

We see an interaction between two Shards elsewhere in the Cosmere where one breaks an agreement with the other and that in and of itself didn't seem to affect the balance of power between said Shards.

A very important line to note from Secret History (chapter 3.1):

Quote

“We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

“It can’t be stopped. The deal…”

“Deals can be broken.”

“Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A very important line to note from Secret History (chapter 3.1):

Quote

“We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

“It can’t be stopped. The deal…”

“Deals can be broken.”

“Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

You probably should have put a spoiler tag on this...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honor and Cultivation worked together to bind Odium, probably using the very thing Odium was trying to use to destroy one or both of them. Honor's death was probably also part of the deal, or at least a direct outcome of it. Rayse played a long game to splinter Honor, get stuck for a while, then find a way to break out. He didn't count on Nightblood, and Cultivation's Intent probably allows her to play even longer games.

I don't think Dawnshards played a large part in trapping Odium. I'm guessing that Shards not using Dawnshards is one of the first agreements that the Vessels made before picking up Shards, and the entire Pantheon would immediately destroy any Shard that threatens to use, or get followers to use, a Dawnshard.

Edited by Leuthie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/01/2021 at 6:32 PM, Leuthie said:

I don't think Dawnshards played a large part in trapping Odium. I'm guessing that Shards not using Dawnshards is one of the first agreements that the Vessels made before picking up Shards, and the entire Pantheon would immediately destroy any Shard that threatens to use, or get followers to use, a Dawnshard.

If even if shards not using Dawnshard is indeed an agreement they made, there's both a Dawnshard that can "bind men, singers and Gods" and a man called Binder of Gods on Roshar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like a lot about this theory.

The Stormfather having a dawnshard makes a lot of sense. That explains why Dalinars surgebinding is so powerful and why the Sleepless are so concerned with Rysn not being a surgebinder.

There are 4 dawnshards and 1 is different from the rest. What if the Bondsmith spren have 3 of the dawnshards? 

Quote

No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle. 

—The Stormfather to Dalinar

Maybe the Stormfathers dawnshard is Connection.

It would also explain why there are 10 orders of radiants and only 9 for voidbinding..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, KSub said:

There are 4 dawnshards and 1 is different from the rest. What if the Bondsmith spren have 3 of the dawnshards? 

That raises the problem: if the Radiants have three of the Dawnshards (or even one), why does Honor worry about how humans will do without the Dawnshards? And where does Ishar get his power, if Dawnshards are required for Bondsmith powers, and all four are accounted for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/01/2021 at 10:11 AM, mathiau said:

If even if shards not using Dawnshard is indeed an agreement they made, there's both a Dawnshard that can "bind men, singers and Gods" and a man called Binder of Gods on Roshar

I've just checked and Dalinar said Ishi had created the oathpact.

6 hours ago, KSub said:

I really like a lot about this theory.

The Stormfather having a dawnshard makes a lot of sense. That explains why Dalinars surgebinding is so powerful and why the Sleepless are so concerned with Rysn not being a surgebinder.

There are 4 dawnshards and 1 is different from the rest. What if the Bondsmith spren have 3 of the dawnshards? 

Maybe the Stormfathers dawnshard is Connection.

It would also explain why there are 10 orders of radiants and only 9 for voidbinding..

First, look closely at the voidbind chart, how many orders do you see?

The fused are not voidbinders, they're surgebinders. And the only reason they're 9 is either because Honour hadn't created adhesion when Odium made them or because Odium didn't want them to have adhesion.

Isn't the different dawnshard just Hoid's former one? The one that was related to the first gem, the gem Frost say died.

If the Stormfather or Dalinar have a dawnshard it's almost certain it'll be Unite (and since Danwshard are a commend, it can't be "Connection" it'd have to be "Connect")

And I'm pretty sure the reason Dalinar's surgebinding is stronger is just because the Stormfather is composed of a lot more investiture than Syl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok now I dont like this theory! Lol

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That raises the problem: if the Radiants have three of the Dawnshards (or even one), why does Honor worry about how humans will do without the Dawnshards? And where does Ishar get his power, if Dawnshards are required for Bondsmith powers, and all four are accounted for?

Ishar had his Honor blade. We just don't know enough about dawnshards or honor blades, or the heralds to know anything for sure.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

I've just checked and Dalinar said Ishi had created the oathpact.

First, look closely at the voidbind chart, how many orders do you see?

The fused are not voidbinders, they're surgebinders. And the only reason they're 9 is either because Honour hadn't created adhesion when Odium made them or because Odium didn't want them to have adhesion.

Isn't the different dawnshard just Hoid's former one? The one that was related to the first gem, the gem Frost say died.

If the Stormfather or Dalinar have a dawnshard it's almost certain it'll be Unite (and since Danwshard are a commend, it can't be "Connection" it'd have to be "Connect")

And I'm pretty sure the reason Dalinar's surgebinding is stronger is just because the Stormfather is composed of a lot more investiture than Syl

You've got some good points.

I guess I wasn't too clear. I didn't think connection was the dawnshards command just the general theme. Connect, unite, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Which is evidence of Dawnshards not being needed for that power level, no?

There is so much going on that we still don't understand after 4 massive books.

Certainly dawnshards are not the only way to become extremely powerful. Ishar has been using the surges for thousands of years, learning all the secrets, possibly becoming a savant, and he is apparently no longer bound by oaths. Ishars abilities could be explained as simply as that and we haven't seen Dalinars full power yet, or maybe I'm just wrong.

Hopefully we will get some answers in 2023.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Little late to this as I'm just doing my theory building reread and I agree. I think it has something to with Cultivation and her Pruning of Dalinar. I believe Honor gave the Dawnshard to her for protection, hence her hesitation towards giving him his boon. This would also explain his strange change in behavior before his death. I think Tanavast wasn't as able to seperate the Shards intent from his own mind as well as he could when he also had the Dawnshard.

A part of me also wonders if Bondsmiths get their shardplate in their third oath, or that he may have swore another oath as well. We know that shardplate is the manifestation of lesser spren right? Well thousands of glory spren surrounded dalinar as he was facing odium. And as they came to him, more and more all at once, his mental fortitude gained stronger and stronger. Strong enough to defy a GOD. That seems like the type of shardplate someone like Dalinar would need. Not physical. But mental. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

All I have to say here is that I can’t imagine Odium going up against Cultivation AND Honor if one of them had access to a dawnshard. We’ve basically been told it would be catastrophic if Odium got his hands on a dawnshard. The Sleepless tell Rysn that she is basically too normal and weak to do anything with the dawnshard, but I have to believe a shard would have some serious firepower. I don’t think Honor could have been defeated by Odium one on one if he was holding a dawnshard. Let alone with Cultivation supporting him too. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...