Odium's Deal

[Waffles]

In the deal with Dalinar there are a number of odd things going on with odium:

1) His skin could seemed to no longer contain his power. The gods eyes had gone completely golden as if they were chunks of metal in a statue's face

why gold? why is he falling apart?  why the comparison to a statue?

2) wit said he cant hurt you, not without breaking his word and inviting his own death.

which happens later.

3) I am not going to break my word because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul which would let cultivation kill me.

Which, arguably, is what happened

4) The use of the 10th hour of the 10th day - rosharin, non-odium numbers.

This feels like Odium is under the influence of another, why not the 9th hour of the 9th day?

It seems very much like Rayse broke an oath and was being influenced. What oath could he have broken?

 

 

[Aspiring Writer]

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

why gold? why is he falling apart?  why the comparison to a statue?

Gold is one of Odium's colors besides red and voilet. He's falling apart because the intent of the shard and vessel are clashing heavily and want out. The statue comparison is probably just a descriptor.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

wit said he cant hurt you, not without breaking his word and inviting his own death.

That's because of Nightblood, not a Shard.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

Which, arguably, is what happened

No, it is not.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

This feels like Odium is under the influence of another, why not the 9th hour of the 9th day?

not sure about that one. Interesting thing to point out.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

It seems very much like Rayse broke an oath and was being influenced. What oath could he have broken?

It's made clear that it's just that the vessel and shard were at extreme odds with each other

[+robardin]

On 1/16/2021 at 2:51 AM, Waffles said:

In the deal with Dalinar there are a number of odd things going on with odium:

1) His skin could seemed to no longer contain his power. The gods eyes had gone completely golden as if they were chunks of metal in a statue's face

why gold? why is he falling apart?  why the comparison to a statue?

2) wit said he cant hurt you, not without breaking his word and inviting his own death.

which happens later.

3) I am not going to break my word because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul which would let cultivation kill me.

Which, arguably, is what happened

4) The use of the 10th hour of the 10th day - rosharin, non-odium numbers.

This feels like Odium is under the influence of another, why not the 9th hour of the 9th day?

It seems very much like Rayse broke an oath and was being influenced. What oath could he have broken?

 

So in another thread somewhere, I commented on how Taravangian was able to do what Hoid had assumed Rayse would or could not do as Odium, and that was reach out and touch him with the power after being bound by the agreement with Dalinar not to harm him. And Taravangian thinks to himself, "I don't believe this would count as harming you..." as he searches for and removes the Breaths that contain the memories of Hoid's previous ten minutes or so.

Coupled with Rayse, who is not exactly a good guy, saying stuff like "when you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in spirit and not only in word" - which is clearly NOT what Taravangian is like as Odium - it suggests that attitude maybe had been forced on Rayse, the way that Hoid cannot harm another person? Something from his human past, perhaps even something he took on as part of being able to participate in the Shattering of Adonalsium before Ascending, and something that therefore does not bind Taravangian as a Vessel.

 

[AquaRegia]

@robardin It is certainly possible that something like this is true - that there is some reason Taravangian is less bound by oaths than Rayse was.  I'm sure we'll learn more in book 5.

I'm hoping for different explanation, however: Hoid anticipated all the ways that meeting Odium might play out, and planned ahead for all of them.  He assumes excising a bit of Breath to remove a specific recent memory does NOT count as harm; therefore Hoid was holding just exactly enough Breath to give the 2nd Heightening, and once he realizes his perfect pitch is gone, he'll know some Breath (and memory) was taken.  I'm also hoping that it turns out that the meeting itself, only made possible by Hoid leaving the Tower, was a misdirection, to keep Odium's attention focused on Hoid while someone else does something important - something Hoid really doesn't want Odium to know about. 

None of this may be true... but it's what I'm hoping.

On 1/16/2021 at 2:51 AM, Waffles said:

4) The use of the 10th hour of the 10th day - rosharin, non-odium numbers.

This feels like Odium is under the influence of another, why not the 9th hour of the 9th day?

I don't think that Odium - the Shard - has any particular affinity for the number nine.  Historically, in Vorinism, certainly... but religions have a tendency to ascribe significance after the fact to things that are really just random.  Nine Unmade?  We don't know that's ALL of them - the Sibling was almost #10.  There may very well be another one we don't yet know of.  Nine orders of Fused?  People are speculating WHY Odium doesn't grant the Surge of Adhesion: because he CAN'T, or because he doesn't WANT TO?  We don't know.  And Dalinar is confident there will turn out to be TEN orders of Fused.  All 10 Surges appear on the Voidbinding chart, after all.

Plus, if it's 10 days to go until 10/10, then that means 9/9 is over NINE MONTHS away.  ;-)  He didn't want to wait that long.

[Voidspawn]

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

WHY Odium doesn't grant the Surge of Adhesion:

All of the other Surges were made of both Cultivation and Honor. Afterword, Honor decided that he wanted himself to have more power over the Surgebinders or something, and created the tenth Surge: the Surge of Adhesion.

 

On 1/15/2021 at 11:51 PM, Waffles said:

10th hour of the 10th day

Branod Sando said that 10 was an important number in Roshar (its why there's 1 10 book series and not 2 5 book series'). Maybe this is part of it?

[+Harrycrapper]

48 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I don't think that Odium - the Shard - has any particular affinity for the number nine.  Historically, in Vorinism, certainly... but religions have a tendency to ascribe significance after the fact to things that are really just random.  Nine Unmade?  We don't know that's ALL of them - the Sibling was almost #10.  There may very well be another one we don't yet know of.  Nine orders of Fused?  People are speculating WHY Odium doesn't grant the Surge of Adhesion: because he CAN'T, or because he doesn't WANT TO?  We don't know.  And Dalinar is confident there will turn out to be TEN orders of Fused.  All 10 Surges appear on the Voidbinding chart, after all.

Quote

Questioner

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

It's not exactly definitive proof, but I think it would be more of a stretch that 9 isn't in some way relevant to Odium than assuming it is. 

Also, where did Dalinar say that there will be 10 orders of Fused? The only time I recall him commenting on it is when he asserted that there are only 9. 

 

[AquaRegia]

2 hours ago, Voidspawn said:

All of the other Surges were made of both Cultivation and Honor. Afterword, Honor decided that he wanted himself to have more power over the Surgebinders or something, and created the tenth Surge: the Surge of Adhesion.

Is this canon, or is it just reader speculation?  My impression is that the Surges are natural to Roshar and predate the coming of the Shards.

2 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

It's not exactly definitive proof, but I think it would be more of a stretch that 9 isn't in some way relevant to Odium than assuming it is. 

Also, where did Dalinar say that there will be 10 orders of Fused? The only time I recall him commenting on it is when he asserted that there are only 9.

Oops - I misremembered, you are correct.

RoW, chapter 2, 2nd page:

"Jasnah posited there would be ten varieties, though Dalinar - offering no explanation of why he knew this - said there would be only nine."

I amend my statement to "Jasnah is confident there will turn out to be ten orders of Fused."  And we all know which of them is smarter.  ;-)

I've gotten the feeling that 9 is only important in the sense that it happens to be 10 - 1; TEN Surges is the magic number for Roshar, and for reasons we don't yet know, Odium's Investiture hasn't been granting one of them.  That does not mean that it CAN'T or WON'T, just that it hasn't.  But I agree, that WoB from 2017 makes my opinion less attractive.

 

[Voidspawn]

2 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Is this canon

Yes; this is canon. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Adhesion

Quote

This power is of Honor alone; it is referred to as "Honor's Truest Surge"

 

[Aspiring Writer]

46 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I amend my statement to "Jasnah is confident there will turn out to be ten orders of Fused."  And we all know which of them is smarter.  ;-)

Doesn't matter which one is smarter when one is making conclusions based on faulty information and impressions while the other has a literal witness to events that will determine the forces they will be facing.

[KSub]

From the San Francisco signing

Quote

Sources: Herald's report - 17th Shard

#20 

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric

So 10 is relevant to Roshar but not Braize for some reason. So is it because Odiums number is 9 and that is where he is invested  or is Braize from another system? It seems odd that Brandon would throw such a weird red herring at us given that there are 9 surges for fused as well.

 

  

Quote

 

55 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Is this canon

Yes; this is canon. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Adhesion

  Quote

This power is of Honor alone; it is referred to as "Honor's Truest Surge"

 

I think the point of contention was whether honor created it after the other surges to make radiants more of honor.

Edited January 20, 2021 by KSub

[AquaRegia]

20 minutes ago, KSub said:

So 10 is relevant to Roshar but not Braize for some reason. So is it because Odiums number is 9 and that is where he is invested  or is Braize from another system? It seems odd that Brandon would throw such a weird red herring at us given that there are 9 surges for fused as well.

Leave it to Brando Sando to say something that both supports and undermines my hypothesis.  I think he wants us to note that the Radiants get access to 10 Surges, and the Fused can only use 9 of them... but we don't yet know enough to understand the significance of this fact.  I admit I was dead wrong about Odium's number being 9. It's still not making sense to me that the number 10 is associated with the entire Rosharan system, pre-Shattering, yet also somehow associated with the Shards that came later.

28 minutes ago, KSub said:

I think the point of contention was whether honor created it after the other surges to make radiants more of honor.

Yes, exactly my question: where is it written that Honor created Adhesion AFTER the other 9?  Given that it's the Surge most closely aligned with his primary intent; does it make sense that it only came AFTER all the others?  What evidence exists for this claim?

If it were true that for some time in history there were Surgebinders with only 9 Surges, then it follows that there would only have been 9 Orders.  Bondsmiths and Windrunners would not have existed as we know them, and instead, there would have been an Order with Tension and Gravitation.

I apologize for my role in this topic straying far from the original post... but it's really interesting!