KSub

Theory: Odium created surgebinding

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We know that humans destroyed Ashyn with surgebinding, then came  to Roshar. They brought Odium with them and when they arrived Honor and Cultivation were the gods of the Singers. Honor and Cultivation created the bonds that allow for the Singers forms as well as Greatshells and Rhyshadium.


After humans came to Roshar Honor created the oaths linking Surgebinding to the bonds. This gave humans access to the power of two shards. At some point Odium turned the Singers and granted them access to surgebinding. This is why radiants have 2 surges and fused have 1. 

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I'm pretty sure Surgebinding is just the catch-all term for "Magic from the Rosharan Solar System".

I mean, come on, Rosharan humans call all birds chickens and all small crustaceans Cremlings... Would it be that big of a stretch to say they call all magical powers Surges?

So "Ashynite Surgebinding" might not even stem from the "10 Surges" that modern Surgebinding uses... Or it does, but the access mechanism was not bonding with a Spren, as we know that came after the Heralds.

I do think that the Surges are accessible from all planets in the Rosharan System, though.

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Surgebinding is a mixture of Honor and Cultivations power. It existed before Odium arrived in the Rosharan system. When Odium arrived he created Voidbinding and granted the Voidbringers the ability to use that power.

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The Eila Stele was written by a singer at the time humans first arrived on Roshar and thus before Odium had a chance to do anything on Roshar. The writer mentions that these new arrivals use powers 'of spren and surges' that they (the singers) were forbidden to touch. In other words, manipulating the Surges was something that could have been done (in theory) on Roshar before Odium got there.

And yes, as @Halyo_Alex says, (WoB contains Rhythm of War spoilers) Surgebinding is just the Rosharan term for 'magic' in the same way that they'd call all Splinters, the Shards and probably even Adonalsium spren if they knew what they were. Brandon himself says he'd agree with Khriss' argument that Surgebinding as a term should specifically refer to the magic we see on Roshar (while allowing that the other definition has its merits) but we need to remember that in-universe terminology is not always going to be technically precise when applied in a broader context.

Edited by Weltall
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Okay Rosharans don't get things but sometimes a chicken really is a chicken. Surge binding is a thing that exists on Roshar and there was something they viewed as surgebinding on Ashyn. The argument about the Singers being forbidden to use surge binding has some merit, but does it specify when? Like was it something they had access to before or were they forbidden when the humans came and brought surgebinding?

Also, we know the shards each manifest a magic system from mistborn. Do we know of any other magic systems on Roshar? There's the old magic, the bonds, surge binding, and maybe voidbinding but everything the fused do seems to be a slightly different version of the surges. I would say the two are the same, so the question is what magic is associated with each shard. The old magic is cultivation, the bonds are honor and that leaves odium and the surges.

The only problem is that there should be more systems since Scadrial had three but I can't think of any others.

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15 hours ago, KSub said:

Okay Rosharans don't get things but sometimes a chicken really is a chicken. Surge binding is a thing that exists on Roshar and there was something they viewed as surgebinding on Ashyn. The argument about the Singers being forbidden to use surge binding has some merit, but does it specify when? Like was it something they had access to before or were they forbidden when the humans came and brought surgebinding?

Also, we know the shards each manifest a magic system from mistborn. Do we know of any other magic systems on Roshar? There's the old magic, the bonds, surge binding, and maybe voidbinding but everything the fused do seems to be a slightly different version of the surges. I would say the two are the same, so the question is what magic is associated with each shard. The old magic is cultivation, the bonds are honor and that leaves odium and the surges.

The only problem is that there should be more systems since Scadrial had three but I can't think of any others.

Scadrial really only had 2 systems and the resonance between them. Preservation produced alomancy the net positive system. Ruin produced hemalurgy the net zero system. where the 2 produce a resonance you get feruchemy the net zero system.

Cultivation seems to create the enhanced physical effects like healing inherant in stormlight, while honor seems to create the external surges like lashings. Shards seem to be the resonance between them. The singers accessed these abilities through forms. I am not sure what Odium brought to the table when he arrived or if he simply co-opted a twisted version of what already existed. Old magic appears to be the end neutral magic of Roshar taking power from one place and taking it from another permanently. Stormlight acts like Adrenalin enhancing while it lasts, but leaving them drained once used up.

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39 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrial really only had 2 systems and the resonance between them. Preservation produced alomancy the net positive system. Ruin produced hemalurgy the net zero system. where the 2 produce a resonance you get feruchemy the net zero system.

Cultivation seems to create the enhanced physical effects like healing inherant in stormlight, while honor seems to create the external surges like lashings. Shards seem to be the resonance between them. The singers accessed these abilities through forms. I am not sure what Odium brought to the table when he arrived or if he simply co-opted a twisted version of what already existed. Old magic appears to be the end neutral magic of Roshar taking power from one place and taking it from another permanently. Stormlight acts like Adrenalin enhancing while it lasts, but leaving them drained once used up.

Respectfully I disagree. 

You can argue that feruchemy isn't a separate magic system but just a resonance between the shards. I would say it's semantics but I will accept your definition. Regardless there are three different applications of investiture with allomancy being net positive, feruchemy being neutral and hemalurgy being net negative.

 We still don't have enough systems on roshar as there should be 1 or arguably 3 resonances and 1 system for each shard. What you describe as cultivation and honors systems are the internal and external attributes of surgebinding. Every system has internal and external skills.

Shardblades could be a resonance, I'll agree to that.

I don't think shards have any control over whether or not they create a magic system once they invest in a place. 

Stormlight is just investiture. When you hold any form of investiture it has the same effect. Stormlight is just a little more raw so you get those highs and lows.

So it seems we are still short.

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3 minutes ago, KSub said:

Respectfully I disagree. 

You can argue that feruchemy isn't a separate magic system but just a resonance between the shards. I would say it's semantics but I will accept your definition. Regardless there are three different applications of investiture with allomancy being net positive, feruchemy being neutral and hemalurgy being net negative.

 We still don't have enough systems on roshar as there should be 1 or arguably 3 resonances and 1 system for each shard. What you describe as cultivation and honors systems are the internal and external attributes of surgebinding. Every system has internal and external skills.

Shardblades could be a resonance, I'll agree to that.

I don't think shards have any control over whether or not they create a magic system once they invest in a place. 

Stormlight is just investiture. When you hold any form of investiture it has the same effect. Stormlight is just a little more raw so you get those highs and lows.

So it seems we are still short.

Hemalurgy was ruin's system. Allomancy was preservation's system. Feruchemy was the intersection of the two. As they shared the same planet the means of investiture was metal.

On Roshar the established means of investiture is Stormlight. Odium corrupted that by creating void light just like Trell made trellium spikes. It might have been Odium joining Roshar that created the Nahel bond, but the surges were already established by Honor and Cultivation and Odium couldn't change them.

Their are related effects between types of investiture, but few direct overlaps. I can't think of any direct overlaps, but Brandon has said that all cosmere magic works everywhere. I think one of the reasons the Ghostbloods want to transport stormlight off of Roshar is because it is generic investiture that could fuel magic systems anywhere. In other words Allomancers could use it in place of burning metal, or Feruchemists could fill metal minds to fuel feruchemy. It can replace sand, breaths, color, dor,or any other power source to fuel any magic system. It also seems to be the most inefficient investiture source.

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I agree with everything except Odium creating the Nahel bond. We know Honor did that to restrict the use of surgebinding. Also, the bond is formed when someone speaks the immortal words and  the storm father accepts them. 

 I'm not sure, was the stuff about investiture supposed to relate to the magic system?

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It seems like Surgebinding is just a natural type of magic native to the Rosharan system. The animals on Roshar learn to harness the surges without any words (for obvious reasons). It doesn't really seem to be specific to a certain Shard. There are spren associated with each one - honorspren, Voidspren, cultivationspren - but in general it's simply a thing that happens on Roshar. Khriss says that she isn't sure if Surgebinding existed pre-Shattering, but it seems like a definite possibility, so as a whole the system likely doesn't come from a Shard. 

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I read through a ton of WOBs today and I have to say, I think this theory is broken. 

But I still dont think we have a firm understanding of how the magic system works.

Check out my next discussion.

 

Edited by KSub
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